#138: Relational Resilience for the Exhausted (with Heather Thompson Day)
Professor, author, speaker and all-around delightful person Heather Thompson Day is our guest on The Puddcast—something I’ve been hoping to make happen for 3 years. Dr. Heather is Associate Professor of Communication at Andrews University, and the author of 8 books; including her latest, I'll See You Tomorrow: Building Relational Resilience When You Want to Quit. Heather shared her perspective that all relationship is sacred, and that ministering the gospel is often as simple as reflecting people’s human dignity back to them. We reflected on living with delight and purpose, inside the mundane limits of our actual lives. Heather unpacked the myth of self-reliance and explained how not all relationships have to be strong, intimate ones to still have profound value and sacred impact. If you’re tired and have not much left to give right now, this one is for you.
Order I'll See You Tomorrow: Building Relational Resilience When You Want to Quit, by Heather Thompson Day and Seth Day.
Learn more about Heather’s work at heatherthompsonday.com.
Support the show and my other work, at jonathanpuddle.com/support
Check out my trauma-informed 30-day devotional, You Are Enough: Learning to Love Yourself the Way God Loves You.
Grab my latest book, Mornings with God: Daily Bible Devotional for Men (good for women too)
Find every book or resource I’ve talked about recently on my Amazon storefront, in Canada, the United States or the United Kingdom.
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Transcription
Heather Thompson Day 00:00
I'm really a believer in the idea that we don't have God that God has us. And therefore you cannot control who else God has. And so it just makes life especially as a teacher, then I can, I know that the Holy Spirit can be active in so many different ways that my little tiny brain would like to box him in. He's so he's so much more outside of that. And so I really try to just be in honor of what the Spirit is doing, rather than ever try to control where he can and cannot go.
Jonathan Puddle 00:40
Hey, friends, welcome back to The Puddcast with me Jonathan Puddle and my co host Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon. This is episode 138. And I have a bit of news I'm going to share more in detail later on. But this is actually going to be the last episode for a little while I'm taking a summer break, and maybe a longer break. After that. We're going to wait and see what happens. But this episode hopefully will round things out for some beautiful closure and reflection before whatever this next season is. Our guest on this episode is Dr. Heather Thompson day. Heather is someone I've been following on Twitter for years. I love her attitude work. She's an associate professor of Communication at Andrews University. She's the author of eight books, including the book that we're discussing today. I'll See You Tomorrow, building relational resilience when you want to quit. And there has been a contributor for Christianity today and Newsweek, and she's the host of the viral Jesus podcast. We talked in this episode all about reflecting people's dignity back to them about preaching the gospel as an exercise and mirroring people's worth, about living with purpose and delight in the midst of the mundane about the myth of self reliance, and how relational community really is everything. But it's not necessarily everything that we were told it was. And we can, for example, have weak friendships that are still of profound value and sacred impact. So Tryphena, and I really enjoyed this Tryphena actually joined us a few minutes late, so you won't hear her voice right at the beginning. But she slides into conversation. And Heather is a delight. So enjoy this conversation. And then at the very end, I'll share some more about where to find out about Heather, and what may be coming up with us. Already, here we go.
Jonathan Puddle 02:35
Heather, I have been enjoying your mostly like college stories on Twitter for like, I don't know, three or four years. I think I got suckered in. At some point when there's like a collection for folks who don't know, you and I guess those who do anyway, these stories of like, an interaction you're having with a student, and you are just offering people like dignity, and humanity. And it seems like it's not that complicated. But you're offering young students, kids, kids, young adults, it seems something that many of them have never even received before. And you're starting from this understanding like that their whole humanity is going to impact their student life. And it's possible that their whole humanity hasn't included breakfast or hasn't included a bed to sleep in, or hasn't included all these kinds of things. And it's kind of like story after story where you're just offering this like shockingly simple but transformative dignity and that just like grabbed me, I don't know if that's why everyone else follows you. But that's absolutely what grabbed me and and continually there's your offer up these little stories that are just so humanizing and so beautiful. And so Jesus and like, seem to be so transformative. And so like simple at the same time. So I don't know if that feels like that's who you are. But that's who I understand you to be and I'm sure there's so much more and I'm just so thankful to get to connect here in person so thank you for coming on the show.
Heather Thompson Day 04:33
Well praise God What an honor to hear that I receive your words and I hope to live up to them.
Jonathan Puddle 04:41
I would love to hear a bit more about you and where you came from and some of your story because I I've I've I have not read your books I've only interacted.
Heather Thompson Day 04:52
How dare you.
Jonathan Puddle 04:53
I am so sorry
Heather Thompson Day 04:53
How dare you Jonathan.
Jonathan Puddle 04:56
I have only interacted with you basically through Twitter and Instagram Okay, okay, and that has already been so I'm like, I'm like books, that would be too much.
Heather Thompson Day 05:04
That would be. Let's not overdo it.
Jonathan Puddle 05:07
I am gonna count my, I've got my gospel calories.
Heather Thompson Day 05:11
Yeah. Oh, my goodness, I don't know. You know, that's like the biggest question that you can ever ask somebody is, who are you? I don't know, you don't mean like, I always just say I'm forever a teacher and forever a student, I think that those two things are like the core, probably to my identity. And I hope to serve where I wasn't, I'm really passionate about that. And that's what I always tell young people that I'm talking to that are trying to figure out which direction to go and is to serve, were serving the gap that you fell in. So you know, I never had a teacher. I was expelled from school, right. So let's back up, let's go all the way back to like eighth grade, I was one of the first people to be expelled from my small town Christian School. So if anything, I feel like what I often had were adults who didn't get me, especially in the Christian space, I didn't really have problems once I went to public school. For me, I had a lot of problems in the Christian environment, not at all with my parents who were incredibly sincere Christians who championed me and never told me I was too much. And I think honestly, that's probably why I'm still a Christian today is because I had some really hurtful adult experiences as a child with Christians. But I had some incredibly formative I just watched, I watched my dad be the same person on stage as he was off stage, if not even, like, more amazing off, you know. And so I saw that there's, there's different, there's different representations of what this can look like. And if I just do it, my dad didn't get up every single morning and get on my knees and meet with the Lord myself, then I get to choose for myself. And so that's kind of what I've done. I always tell people I grew up in a van, my dad was an evangelist, and we truly every single weekend traveled from country to country, church to church. And so I grew up in a very, I'd say, conservative Christian environment, where I always got to see and experience God in really profound ways. Like I, as a child, I love a program. I know, like my, the generation I serve now, like they're anti program, they just want to like sit in a circle and talk. I love a good church program, because that's what I grew up on. You know, I felt the Holy Spirit in my theater seat watching the stage. I love that. And that's how I grew up with my dad. But then I ended up. I always had like, experiences with God, where I felt like my faith was I felt like I understood my faith on an emotional level. And then I think my draw to academia came because I wanted to understand on a logical level, if that makes sense, I've always I think I use both sides of my brain. And so yeah, I started studying and researching and just wanting to know that there was actual knowledge that can coincide with this emotional appeal that I had. And so I think that's what's led me to teaching and that's why I was reading a book, right before I sat down with you, fantastic book by John Walton called life before Adam and Eve. Anyway, and I'm like, my mind has been blown on that right now. I just, I love learning, and I love sharing with people what I've learned. So I just think I'm a really good Bible student.
Jonathan Puddle 08:46
Yes. Okay, that explains so much of what I love about you. Now I understand! Because I am, I think very similar in that way.
Heather Thompson Day 08:53
OK!
Jonathan Puddle 08:53
My parents were missionaries. YWAM missionaries, I grew up all over the world. And I Yes, I'm highly intellectual, love to learn, love to read, love to dig into theology and language and sociology and anthropology and why humans do the things we do. And how God responds to that. And I'm an Enneagram Two with a huge heart, and I just feel my way in and out of all the problems in my life.
Heather Thompson Day 09:18
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 09:19
That's so interesting. Yeah. I love that. How what were you expelled for?
Heather Thompson Day 09:24
That, you know, I I've never publicly truly said,
Jonathan Puddle 09:28
You're welcome to not say.
Heather Thompson Day 09:29
I probably, yeah, I probably won't say just because of a lot of reasons. But I, here's what I will say I, at the end of my time there I was getting something called citations. It was like write ups. For leaning back in my chair. They put I would lean back in my chair, and they wrote me up literally on the citation that said, vandalism of school property. So what I actually ended up being was an administration that felt that a young black girl was doing too much talking and leading and was threatened by it and just thought it would be easier to get rid of me what my principal said when he expelled me. And I've never forgotten this. He said, sometimes you have to remove the bad peach before it spoils the whole crate. And it makes me want to cry even to repeat it because I've like, genuinely, I'm actually so grateful for that I'm so grateful for my childhood, and even all those experiences, because it is the whole reason why I've spent the last 15 years of my life pursuing bad peaches. Like, I know what it feels like to be the lost sheep, I know what it feels like to have other, your friends, parents not want them to hang out with you. I know that feeling and that shame. And so, and what has always been very shocking to me, throughout my life is that God pursued me when everybody else didn't God did when I and I would say obviously wasn't the church. But in my young brain, I perceived it to be the church who was expelling me, God pursued me. And that's been very fascinating to me. And so I just, we can't, I'm just I'm really a believer in the idea that we don't have God that God has us.
Jonathan Puddle 09:36
Yes.
Heather Thompson Day 10:03
And therefore you cannot control who else God has. And so I really try to just be in honor of what the Spirit is doing, rather than ever try to control where he can and cannot go. Right. And so it just makes life, especially as a teacher, then I can I know that the Holy Spirit can be active in so many different ways that my little tiny brain would like to box him in. He's so he's so much more outside of that.
Jonathan Puddle 11:47
Yes, yes, that appeals to me big time. I'm a Toronto Blessing graduate. So that's my pedigree, very charismatic. And then now I'm more of a contemplative, but either way that that's my jam. How Okay, so one of the questions that I get from people all the time, which is tragic, and powerful and sacred is how do I get closer to God when I'm terrified of God? Let me phrase that in the form of a question for you, then you sensed like God was pursuing you? How do you become aware of God's pursuit of you view?
Heather Thompson Day 12:30
You know, I think that that's a very different question for every single person. And the reason I say that is because my sister and I grew up in the exact same house. And yet her experience with God has been very different than mine. And actually, if there's anything that I struggle with God on, it's that I do meet people who say, I've never felt it. What's that like? And that for me is like, really, I can't even because I've always felt it. I mean, like, three, four or five, I always felt a deep. I can remember saying to God at like six years of I am not going to sleep tonight until you talk to me. I need to hear your voice. I'm not Lord, I am not. And then of course, I fell asleep. I've never heard the voice of God audibly. I hope to one day I'm going to keep asking until I do, but and then my sister who grew up in the exact same house as me is like, weird. Like, I've she's like, I just always take your word for it. And Dad's word for it. Like, she's like, it's not like I'm feeling anything. I just believe you, because I know you're not crazy. And I'm like, wow. Right. So I can't it's really hard for me to answer that. Because, for me, I wouldn't say that, like, I found God, I think God found me. And it was just a matter of stopping. Right. But so how do you answer that for the person who says, I'm begging? And I don't feel it? I don't know. I guess all I can say is keep showing up anyway. I mean, I don't think I don't think it matters if you feel it, because my sister doesn't feel it. And I have no doubt that she is saved. So, I think we just, we just choose to believe. And of course, we keep praying, I think for ways to experience him in in a way that makes sense for you. And God is going to work in so many different for my husband, it's in nature. I mean, he goes on a hike and weeps. You know, he wants to sleep out under this. I don't want anything to do with sleeping outside. You know, so like, we experience it. And for me, I truly like I am closest to God when I'm reading, which for a lot of people would be like, who know what I mean like how you feel God reading a book I can't I like all of Heaven opens up when I read a book. So I think whatever that don't let other people tell you what it's supposed to be. Maybe for you it's through music, maybe it's through science, maybe it's whatever that is that you just get that like hunger for more. That's what I would say keep pursuing that and trust that God is pursuing you. I one thing I know is that I'm not special. If anything that my childhood has taught me that I was not special. Right. So I think people are chosen to show that people get chose same period. And so you just take somebody else's word for it if that's okay.
Jonathan Puddle 15:05
How did you and God because obviously God has been key to this process. How did you get over that kind of a you don't seem someone who's crippled by those experiences, right? Like, I knew I wasn't special. I know. I know what it's like to be skipped over to be ashamed things that you vocalized, how did you begin to function and move beyond that?
Heather Thompson Day 15:28
Yeah. And again, like, I would say, I'm really so I used to think I used to say, I'm resilient. I'm resilient, then I learned so much more about sociology and the looking-glass self, essentially, we, we know who we are based on the image of ourselves that other people reflect to us. The greatest image in my life was my dad and my mom. So I'm actually not even prior resilient. I had really good parents, because my husband, who grew up sitting on his porch at six years old, saying he's going to come today is going to come today, I know he's going to get he told my dad is going to come to his she told me, he's going to pick me up. And nobody ever came. He really struggles to get over hurt. Because I think he's experienced it more deeply without the mirrors that I got to experience. Right. So again, I wouldn't say that even how did I get over it? I mean, I lucky. I'm just actually really lucky that I had parents who revealed a really beautiful, I mean, my dad always told me, even when I can remember when, when I was expelled, my dad said, You're Heather, I, I'm just telling you, you're going to be something I know it. I feel it. Right. And so I believed him. It's wild how much kids will believe their parents. So really, like if we could all just like be better parents, to our kids, and project a mirror to them that says, You are worthy, I hope to do that as a teacher in whatever small way I get to spend time with them. If not even just parents, if we all as people remember the looking-glass self, people know who they are based on the image that you reflect to them of who they are. When they look to you they see a mirror of themselves. What are you telling other people about who they are, I really believe the redemptive work of Christians is to reflect an image to other people that they are we're worthy of the gospel of God. Right, that they are worthy that their lives have purpose and meaning. That's what we're supposed to be doing. That's what it means to co-labor with Christ. Like you said, in the very beginning. It's, it's not that complicated. We've made this so complicated. Can we just give people back their humanity and their dignity? What happens when we do that? I know how powerful it was for me. Right? And so may we pay that debt and do it for others?
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 17:57
Oh, my goodness, I have been, hi by the way. I have, like 30 seconds. And I'm like taking notes. I'm like, Oh, my goodness. Hi, I
Heather Thompson Day 18:06
Hi friend.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 18:07
Hi, friend. I love that. Well, one I love like they do looking glass self. But I think we talk so much. But even as a spiritual director, you want to mirror back to people who they are and like that, like that. Imago Dei, deal. But when you talk about that, in terms of parenting, and you're right, like kids will believe so much. I think so much of even going back and unpacking our own, like trauma or stuck parts. And all of it is like the hurtful stuff that's been spoken over us that we've believed and not realize what we believe.
Heather Thompson Day 18:40
Yes.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 18:40
And so to actually have somebody mirror back your worth to you all like it just sounds so beautiful. And you're right, it sounds so simple like that. Isn't that like, I just love what you talk about that is the essence of CO laboring with God and CO creating, oh, my goodness, like that is bringing the kingdom of heaven. Everywhere you go. And I love how simply you said that? Okay, I'm just like, I'm geeking out.
Heather Thompson Day 19:03
I listened to this Bible Project episode. And it was a really transformative episode to me, where Tim Mackie says what does it mean, essentially, to give glory? You know, people say, what's the meaning to a Christians live is to bring glory to God. He says, What does that mean? And he uses the garden imagery. And he says, is the purpose to our lives to stand at the driveway, and watch God in the Garden? And say, wow, look at God, do you see what Glory to God? God, it is the purpose to stand at the end of the driveway and just keep screaming about how awesome God is and how much work he's doing? Or what if somebody did that for you? Would it be more meaningful if they picked up a shovel and helped you work? Which one brings glory to God? Probably picking up the shovel and doing some work. And so that's what we are called to do as Christians not just to stand at the end of the driveway and talk about it. But to pick up our shovels and whatever and I'm telling this what I say my students when they, What's the purpose to my life? I'm like, go to class. Purpose is not a destination, literally, I'm a communication professor. So words mean things, right? The definition of purpose is the reason you do what you do. It's not a destination. The purpose, it's you go to class with purpose, you're faithful with whatever it is God has placed in your hand, that's all he's asked of you is to be not with what you wish was in your hand. What is he actually put in your hand? Is it to just be a daughter than you be a daughter, right, in a way that all of Martin Luther King Jr. would say? He was speaking to a group of seniors civil rights movement, the world was not their oyster. Right? What do you say to a graduating class when the world is not your when opportunity is not going to open itself up to you? And he says to them, if all you ever do when you leave here is to be a street sweeper, then sweep those streets with so much passion and so much intention and so much integrity that all of Heaven has to stop and say, Oh, my God, look at the street sweeper.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 21:09
Yeah.
Heather Thompson Day 21:10
How do we just turn the podcasts button on and say, I'm going to do this thing, God as if all of Heaven is going to stop and say, Oh, my god, look at them. I'm going to teach this class, I'm going to start to be a nurse, I'm going to be a doctor, I'm going to be a mother, I'm going to be a woman and be a husband and be a friend. With so much passion, so much integrity, so much compassion that all of Heaven has to stop. It's exhausting. But that is I think, what the call is.
Jonathan Puddle 21:38
Yeah.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 21:39
Oh, my goodness.
Jonathan Puddle 21:42
Come on.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 21:44
Yeah, I just feel like we need to sit with that. Like, there's so much power in that. And I think that I've been reflecting a lot on this with my own journey, but just how much value I've placed on productivity, whether it was just in the culture and in the water on like, from the time your little What are you going to be when you grow up? Because you have to be like, a productive member of society. Right. And I think part of it's like that immigrant journey of like, you can't like, you can't just do a sweep the street sweeper, not there's anything wrong with that. This idea of.
Jonathan Puddle 22:11
We didn't to this country for you to?
Jonathan Puddle 22:13
Yeah,
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 22:14
Right. Okay. So, like, literally, my son was with my parents yesterday. And they took him on a tour of two of the major universities in the city they were at, and I was like, you this is like, this is the value set. Right? But so what I was wrestling at with Jesus yesterday was like, what does it look like to just delight in the mundane? Because this is where I'm at. And there's a song called Begin Anew that someone had sent to me recently in the power of what Who am I when I'm not wishing for what I'm missing? When you talk about actually just sitting with where you are not trying to, like, you know, keep up with the Joneses, or whoever it is, or social media. And just embracing and delighting in where we are like, that's so powerful. Because I love that idea of like, you're not just standing at the garden and cheering God on. Like, what does it look like to actually live your life?
Heather Thompson Day 23:03
Yes.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 23:05
Holy and authentically.
Heather Thompson Day 23:06
Oh, my goodness,
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 23:08
Jonathan told me I would love you.
Heather Thompson Day 23:09
Oh, wow, that we love each other now
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 23:13
so good. Sorry. I'm just like, hey
Jonathan Puddle 23:16
here's, here's something funny though, that I'm still trying to that I need you to explain to me when we got the pitch for your book, and we're reading, like, I'll See You Tomorrow: Building Relational Resilience When You Want to Quit both Tryphena. And I will hard pass, we are so done. Any conversation about building resilience? And we're so tired, and we've had that guest on. And we've talked about relational ah, and I basically said that back to the publicist, I said, I absolutely love Heather, and I've been waiting for her to come on the show. Anytime. I've been waiting for the excuse. I don't know that I want to talk about this subject matter. And she was like, Oh, well, that's a perfect fit, then. This is exactly why there is like sitting with and I was like, Oh, okay. And then I saw your words on Twitter. I wrote this book for people who are hurting, tired processing. And I'm like, yep, check, check check. Especially today, but but desperately want to keep their hearts soft towards themselves and others.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 24:26
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 24:27
And I was like, damn.
Jonathan Puddle 24:30
Yeah,
Heather Thompson Day 24:31
I mean, unfortunately, and I totally I mean, even with some of the stuff that's going on in my husband is personal lives. We talk about this all the time. I will say with this book. I have spent the last decade studying relationships that so the study of communication is actually the study of relationship building. That's, that's what you're studying. So I've spent the last decade understanding how like, literally in evolutionary biology and in Christianity, unfortunately you were wired and created to exist in relationship with other people. Self Reliance is a myth.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 25:07
Yeah.
Heather Thompson Day 25:08
Right. And so I know all of that data and research, I will say what I underestimated was the resistance. People I have had so many people email me and say, Heather, I love you. Even saying like, I bought the book, but I can't read it right now. I just don't even want to hear somebody telling me to keep trying. I'm so done trying. And I, I just want to say I get that. I get that. I will say I mean, I believe in the Trinity. So I believe that God does not exist outside of relationship. And so I think it's wild that we think we can. I mean, it's just wild, okay, you were created in the image of a relationship. God is relationship. If I give a Bible study with somebody, all I do is go through in Scripture, over and over and over how God's desires to dwell with His people. That's exactly how that's how scripture starts. And that's exactly how it ends, that God finally gets to read well with his people. Oh, and how do we live? How How are we supposed to be Christians? Apart from what apart from being in relationship with one another? Man, I think that that should be like the conversation is how do we how do we keep engaging in this as a church because else, unfortunately, I do think we stopped being a church. I would venture to say that your relationship with God is only as strong as your relationship with one another. First Four commandments love God. Last six love each other. The entire law is love God love each other. That's it guys.
Jonathan Puddle 26:43
Well, and Paul goes further, right? Paul's like, the whole law is actually just summed up in loving your neighbor as yourself because you can't exactly be loving God, if you're not loving.
Heather Thompson Day 26:52
and caring one another's burdens, we fulfill the law of God. I do think like, you know, I think it's difficult. There's so many things at play for our, which I talked about in the book, I think we're just in a different culture system. All scripture was written for you, but not to you. Right? Like, we are in a very, very different culture system than first century, Christians were in I mean, just look at our time, we account for every minute of our. We have to clock in and like it, everything is very different, and consumerism, and all of these things have absolutely impacted us. So yes, I agree. It is difficult, but I think, unfortunately, the call is to figure out how do I wrestle with that difficulty? How do I remain soft in a world that's so hard? That's nothing short of a miracle? Only through Christ? Can we remain soft? In a world? That's really hard?
Jonathan Puddle 27:47
Yeah. Amen. One of the things you talk about in this book is weak ties. And I'm really intrigued if you could unpack that a little bit for us.
Heather Thompson Day 27:56
Well, first, tell me do you like weak ties? Or do you not like the idea of weak ties because sometimes people get really upset about it.
Jonathan Puddle 28:01
Absolutely. So upset as a weak tie is only a reflection on my poor relationship building. Any, any relationship is a potential best relationship. And if we don't end this call, as best friends, I'm, I'm a terrible podcaster.
Heather Thompson Day 28:18
Okay, so here's what I would say to the person who's saying I'm exhausted trying. And I think as Christians, at least for myself, like, we can get a lot of shame and even saying, like, I can't be with this person. I can't be with my cousin anymore. I can't, right. So the language I would say is, Well, how about we just weaken the tie? It's not like we're sever. You don't always have to sever the relationship instead of saying, what can you start saying, What can I say yes to? Right. I know what I can say no to, what can I say? Yes, you okay? The strength of weak ties is a sociological theory that essentially says, you are actually more formed by your weak ties than your strong ones, which is fascinating. And there's research that backs it up. I would say it this way. And this is what I say to my students, if you walk across the campus, and somebody says, Hey, good morning, as you walk across the campus, do you now feel like you belong more on that campus? You can have a best friend in the dorm room that only talks to you when you're in your dorm room. You guys are best friends, and you might not feel like you belong if nobody says hi to you, when you're in the cafeteria. There is and so this is what I say it's actually an opportunity. Every day again, as Christians, we get to be a weak tie. We don't have to be everybody's strong tie. But we can be really good weak once we're every time I pass you. I'm acknowledging your presence. I when I go to my diner, I have a waitress there named Shirley. She actually owns the restaurant. She also has a waitress there. And every time I walk in and she says Heather, where are you? I missed you. She hugs me when I come in. Do I feel like I belong in the diner because Shirley says hi to me. Where were you? It's wild. I do and yeah, I don't go on Thanksgiving retreat with Shirley. I don't talk to Shirley on the phone. But when I walk in the diner Shirley noticed my name and she notices I was there. She's a weak tie, but I feel more a part of my community because of Shirley.
Jonathan Puddle 30:12
Okay, this is profound, because I have a really great barber. And sitting in her chair is wonderful and humanizing and connecting. But I then feel bad for not inviting her to a barbecue. And I have beginning to sense that this is a burden. I don't have to carry.
Heather Thompson Day 30:32
Yes, yes, you can't be all things to all people. But you can be a really good Jonathan to all people. Right?
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 30:43
It really is flipping the script, though, I think on what we've been taught community is in the evangelical framework, because even as you're talking, I'm like, Oh, my goodness, it's messing with me on so many levels. It's messing on the you can interact with each person and it not be coming across as too much. Because I feel like there's a part where it's like, oh, well, if you just say hi to everyone you walk by, you're being too much like you need to just get your stuff down, manage your time better. But also, there's the other side where I'm like, if I don't invite the person to a barbecue, I feel like I haven't cultivated like a healthy, deep meaningful, like relationship, even if, like, I don't know. I feel like I end most conversations at church with like, we should do coffee, and my husband's like, What is wrong with you? You don't want it to coffee? Why are you out and look like just feel bad? Like we connected. So now I must need to go deeper. And then inevitably, I'm like, I'm just going to let them down. Or I just like there's that guilt of like, you're not inviting your your barber for a barbecue. I'm like, Oh, well, I have to do more and almost violate myself in the process of doing more.
Heather Thompson Day 31:52
I would say the more value you realize relationship has, the more you realize just offering relationship period is valuable. Right. Like, I think we think that there has to be degrees. But what if every time we engage in healthy loving relationship, we are engaging in an act of God? God is relationship. So we get to offer relationship everywhere we go and all relationship has value. You know, you don't have to be. You don't have to be best friends with every person. I mean, here's what we know from the research. People who are a part of CrossFit are healthier, happier, people. Why are they like going to Thanksgiving with everybody in the CrossFit? No. But when they step foot in there, somebody knows my name? How are you doing their small talk? I belong? Why do I like to go to Starbucks? Heather, how nice to see you. We're glad you're here, right? It's a business, I'm paying them. But something happens in my brain where I feel like, everybody belongs at Starbucks. That's how they treat me when I come in. What If the Church started behaving like story of books, just acknowledging people's presence? And I think sometimes, like the, I'm against, like force, intimacy, you know, we're like, we force ourselves into really deeply intimate situations that that don't happen, like the process of intimacy is a gradual, slow process of, of layer by layer withdrawal, what we would say in communication, sometimes I think that's the problem with churches, we pretend that it's something it's not. And now I'm hurt.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 33:28
Yeah.
Heather Thompson Day 33:28
Because we're saying we're calling each other words, we're saying that we're going to coffee. And it's like, it's not, you know, so how do we just like be normal? Like, let's just be no mentorship. I always say this about mentorship, too, because people will write me and they'll say, will you be my mentor? I'm like, don't do that. Because mentorship is a relationship. Like any other relationship. You don't ask someone to marry you. The first time you meet them. You say, Would you like to have coffee, you go to coffee, you see how coffee goes, if it's good, you say I'd like to do this again next month, right? Like relationships are actually really gradual things. You don't have to rush them or force them.
Jonathan Puddle 34:02
This is my relationship with my current with my kids crossing guard. And, and it makes perfect sense. He he actually knows my name. I don't even know how he knows my name. But I also know his name, but I feel like the whole community knows his name. But I get a fist bump every morning and some weird, obscure joke. And you know, the other day he said to me, do you ever not smile? And I said, yeah, sometimes but no, usually, Usually I'm smiling and he's like, I love it. I love it. And I mean, yeah, we we cross paths and bump fists every morning. And it is enriching.
Heather Thompson Day 34:39
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 34:41
Yeah. Okay. Okay.
Heather Thompson Day 34:43
Relationship itself is enriching.
Jonathan Puddle 34:46
Right.
Heather Thompson Day 34:46
Just strive to have healthy real relationship, whatever level. It can be a strong tie or it can be a weak tie, and that doesn't diminish the value.
Jonathan Puddle 34:55
Yeah.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 34:56
There's so much, sorry say again Jonathan.
Jonathan Puddle 34:58
That's a huge take-home for me. I feel like everything has just like got to become strong.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 35:04
There's so much freedom in that.
Heather Thompson Day 35:06
I think so too
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 35:08
have like, I can just be present in the moment in this relationship and love it and not feel like I need to do more.
Jonathan Puddle 35:14
Do you think Jesus had weak ties with some people? And I mean, I know that it's complicated, because Jesus was also God, and we making a statement about.
Heather Thompson Day 35:22
who he did when when the guy that he the demoniac that he heals, and he says, Can I come with you? He goes, No, you're actually going to be more beneficial if you stay here. You're not staying and you don't I'm saying like, of course.
Jonathan Puddle 35:34
Yeah.
Heather Thompson Day 35:35
I think he just truly valued relationship and people as should we.
Jonathan Puddle 35:41
Yeah. This see this I've been wrestling with, like, not wrestling with but just think chewing over for a couple of years now. Like this idea of like, Jesus walked away from so many people, Jesus got tired and ditched that crowd. So yeah, either God doesn't care about everyone. Or God does care about everyone. And it's just a much bigger picture of how that plays out. Then, like, if you didn't turn up to the feeding of the 5000 Oh, two bad that Jesus already boosted, because he's tapped out?
Heather Thompson Day 36:07
Yeah.I mean, thank goodness for the gift of the Holy Spirit, right, which gets to be an individual experience where God lives in me. I mean, he doesn't get any more intimate or strong tie than that. And that's what each of us should be pursuing.
Jonathan Puddle 36:20
Wow. I love that. How about the the trauma aspect? You know, we have talked a lot on the show about trauma we've had Aundi. On many times, she's like a close friend of the show. Understanding our own trauma responses in relationship in connection. What What how do you see that in a connection communication framework?
Heather Thompson Day 36:43
Yeah, so I, so my husband wrote the book with me, and he speaks to the trauma aspect, I try not to talk about things that I haven't personally experienced. So on the other side of that, I would say, there are certain things that he will ever probably be able to give me or maybe, maybe at 60, we'll see I'm only 36. But there are certain things that I have to carry. That is just I think the cost to my growing up the way I did. And so what I would say to people who aren't who are more like me, who didn't have traumatic backgrounds, they had difficulty, but I wouldn't call it trauma, then the cost to that is that we make space for those who did we lift one another's burdens and and do so doing, we fulfill the law of God, you have time and you have space, and you have energy, and you have the healthy background to do it in a way that other people truly even if they want, they may not, they may not be able to write because it might trigger them in a certain way your trauma triggers their trauma, you know.
Jonathan Puddle 37:43
Yeah, that makes perfect sense to me, like understanding that within the within the relational fabric of your community, I get that. I mean, even as foster parents, like, that's part of the foster thing, like we have resources to be able to offer unity. And it turns out that our foster daughters family live in our neighborhood. So like, this is right here. Like this is not like across town on the wrong side of the tracks. Like they're hurting people in your on your street, that you may have capacity to lend to. Right and in various different ways. So that makes that makes a lot of sense to me.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 38:19
It does.It also like it's it makes me uncomfortable. I'm like, Well, yeah, so there are going back to like, honoring the weak tie and like, oh, there are limitations to what I can do, because of like traumas or histories and all of it. And like, that has to be okay. Cuz when you said like, oh, I take offense to it. I can do anything I want. I am like, then I'm like, wait, oh my gosh, no. Like I actually going back to like, even 10 minutes ago, like, I'm going to delight in the life that I have. I have to be okay with my limitations, just as others have to be able to honor the fact that they have more capacity. But goodness, that's hard.
Heather Thompson Day 39:01
Yeah. It makes it seem like something's there. But it's actually not because both people are giving the most that they can give. Right. Yeah, you're doing
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 39:09
Yeah, you're doing the best you can with your rescoures you have.
Heather Thompson Day 39:11
Yeah.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 39:13
Absolutely.
Heather Thompson Day 39:14
And I will say like, I have something I love about my husband is like, able to tap into rage a lot faster than I am. And I actually really like that. Because for me, rage is like bad, right? So it's very difficult to even allow myself right. It's hard to allow myself and so I love that I have people that are so fiercely where I don't do that for them. If anything when they're telling me like a situation. I'm like, Hey, let's calm down. Let's try to see it from the other person's angle. I love that they provide me a space where they're like, No, this is awful that somebody would treat you this way and I'm going to say something to them. It's nice to have people like that in your corner. So I just think we all offer each other different things. I love that I have people that so fiercely and loyally want to protect me. Right and it way that probably they would say I don't give them as I'm always trying to see all sides of a situation, you know?
Heather Thompson Day 40:05
Yeah
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 40:06
I love it. I can be like, I this is so liberating to me like, Oh, my friend that offers rage.
Heather Thompson Day 40:14
Well, it's nice to feel protected. I like to know that somebody would fight for me if they needed to, you know what I mean? Like, that's a sweet, it makes me feel very safe. And, and I love the loyalty that I get from them. You know, it's just, uh, it's funny how we're all different.
Jonathan Puddle 40:30
It's actually true. Tryphena if I, I've got obviously Maija, my wife and you if I feel like an injustice has been done, I know who to take a call or write the right reaction. To make me feel like Yes, an injustice has been done.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 40:49
Slashed some tires like what do you mean.
Jonathan Puddle 40:52
Burn it down
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 40:56
This is so interesting. Sorry. This is so like off topic. But I'm like, Oh, my goodness, you're healing my marriage. Like my level headed like, husband who's like, well, just calm down. Like you're being a little angry. And I'm like, You're calling me an angry woman of color like you. And then it just it's a mess. Oh, he just his his worldview allows him to offer me something very different.
Heather Thompson Day 41:21
Yeah. Simple. Yes, I have had to really train myself from reading Brene Brown the gift of imperfection. I had to realize like, Oh, I am trying to solve like, it's okay for people to sit in rage. Like, that's not a threat to you, Heather. And I've had to allow that space. But it doesn't come natural. Right, I have to think.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 41:41
I think it just even goes back to this idea of you're mirroring God, like mirroring God back to people of like how they are representing God in the world are like, you know, showing up in their beauty. If you're giving them space for their rage, or you're giving them space for their common motion and their logic and all of it like it actually is very honoring to the different emotional parts of God in them. I love that.
Heather Thompson Day 42:04
I love the fact that God gets angry on your behalf. Right? Like God can be that for Yes, I actually that's really good. Tryphena that's really good.
Jonathan Puddle 42:14
There's a psalm that I that I use when I teach on anger, then it's like the text is like because the poor are despoiled. I will rise up says the Lord.
Heather Thompson Day 42:25
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 42:26
And it's like I will come down and furious anger. Because of injustice. Okay, that's good news.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 42:33
No, good. It's very liberating. Yeah. Sorry. I'm being like a horrible podcast host. I have a question for you are tough actually sit with this. You're rocking my world here. Oh, I'm so glad that we can spend time together.
Jonathan Puddle 42:48
So we're wrapping up this show. For the time being, I've got a bunch of trends, we've both got a bunch of transitionary stuff happening in our lives that we really don't have our fingers on. And we we know what's happening. But we don't know what's happening. And so one of the conversations we had the other day was I think we need to pause the show, and should our interview with Heather be? Can that be the end for now. And listeners are going to be like what, what, and we'll maybe talk more about that in a podcast, just Tryphena and I talked about that processing that. But I tell you, I am like feeling all this ego death and all of this fear. And I'm like, Oh, my patrons will leave and all of this will happen. And all of a sudden, I've stepped back from pastoring and preaching my last sermon this Sunday, on what rest, of course, because I'm so terrible at it. And I know I'm exhausted, I'm depleted. And even yesterday, my daughter, my 10 year old was driving with her mom, and they were shopping and she said to her mom, you and dad are fighting a lot right now I'm kind of I'm kind of upset. And so Maija I said, oh, let's get home and you can tell your dad. So she did. And so and so I'm like I'm so sorry, sweetheart like that. Wait a minute, we're actually great. Dads, everything's leaking out sideways because dad is exhausted. I was so depleted and and I recognize depression starts to arrive when I don't have the energy to do the things that keep me afloat. And there's there's lots there but so I'm apologizing to my child thing. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that you that you are worried about that. You don't need to carry that for mom and dad. Were actually great. It's just, we're just getting snippy because Dad's exhausted and your mom's about to go on vacation for three weeks with one of the children and I'm going to be at home with the all the other three and the dog. So yeah, that's a whole thing.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 44:50
I love you, Jonathan. But you just came back from being away. But cool.
Jonathan Puddle 44:54
I came away. I was working away. I was not on vacation. Yeah, I
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 44:58
know.
Jonathan Puddle 44:58
I was doing something terrified to do for the first time in another country.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 45:02
You did an amazing job. This is my rage for Maija, this is this.
Jonathan Puddle 45:07
So many layers.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 45:11
Sorry, go on, I cut you off.
Jonathan Puddle 45:12
I feel like you have something to say Heather about stopping and withdrawing from things and rest. That might be helpful for me.
Heather Thompson Day 45:23
I hope so I so I can relate, I actually open the book. I'll See You Tomorrow, by talking about a time that I actually got physically. I got gastroenteritis, where it literally felt like I was having labor pains. I didn't know what was happening. I thought I was coming up to the hospital. I call my mentor. And I had been running myself ragged. And I just remember the most liberating thing that he said, I was in the middle of doing a like a camp, I was like a speaker for this high school Methodist camp in Ohio. And after the messages, I was speaking twice a day. And then afterwards, they're like asking me to go to all these different homes. And I'm like, going to all these different homes because I feel like I have to because I have to be God for them. And he was like, but you're not like you the point is to point other people to have their own relationship, not for you to be God in the room for everybody like that you are actually disservice if you're you're teaching people to stand at the end of your driveway and clap, rather than teaching people how to pick up their own shovel on their own yards. Right? And that for me, I am telling you something clicked as somebody who's always I like dramatisize my life. So I'm always like, well, what if this conversation is like the moment that this person turns us around. So I don't want to miss any of the conversations. And I've just had to realize, yeah, that you're a human being that the Sabbath is built into the commands, but it's a command. It's a command. Right? And so we are supposed to be able to rest in Christ and trust that God is going to keep being God without Jonathan at the pulpit, which is a wild thought, isn't it?
Jonathan Puddle 47:09
Those are literally my sermon notes. And I'm like, I parts of me know this, but parts of me cleary do not.
Heather Thompson Day 47:16
You want to know, Jonathan, and I would say this is anybody listening, you know how we experience it is by stepping back. You may know it in your head, but you know, how you experience it in your life is when you step back, and you realize the world doesn't crumble? And the what do we all know this? I mean, I'll never forget this actually a very sad example. But this teacher at the school I used to work at passed away halfway through the semester. And it was, of course, very sad. But then I watched everybody just fill his classes. And that was a, it was a moment for me where I said, If I die, they're just going to fill your classes as much as my students love me, somebody else is going to teach them. The only people who are really, truly going to have their entire lives upside down and not be able to go on is the people in my house.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 48:05
Wow.
Heather Thompson Day 48:07
And so how is that the place that we are able to spend our most energy and recognize that everything else is what's left? After I've served the people who literally will not go on for the rest of their lives if something happens to me, right?
Jonathan Puddle 48:20
My daughter is literally upset that mom & dad...
Heather Thompson Day 48:24
That's, that's what I'm learning for myself and I and we have to be you got to take those seasons where you step back and things are seasonal. It doesn't mean forever, you step back, and you see God keep moving on without you. And you're like, This is amazing. It's not all on me. And then you go back when you're in a season where you can life is see, I mean, the world goes through seasons, you think you don't go through seasons? Of course we do.
Jonathan Puddle 48:45
Tryphena do you feel like this is the exact same conversation we were having one year ago, at this time of year.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 48:51
I feel like this is the frustrating part to me, right because so I was reading a book last year called Wintering.
Heather Thompson Day 48:57
Oh my goodness. I love Wintering, Wintering changed my life.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 49:02
Me too. Literally.
Heather Thompson Day 49:04
Yes, that vocabulary for me. Then Katherine May Wintering
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 49:08
Yes, she's brilliant. My girlfriend. I don't know if you can see that. She literally bought me a snowflake necklace to be like you need to sit in this Wintering season. Okay, so cool. So this is the conversation Jonathan and I were having, like actually stepping back and like allowing, like, in the like, in the dead of winter, when you think nothing is happening. There's actual beauty and growth happening under the surface. And what I found wild about her is she pulled her kid out of school. And allowed him to winter. And so part of my journey is we have a very complex parenting situation at home right now. And I literally have a kid that has been pulled out of school to because they can't like it's just not happening.
Heather Thompson Day 49:47
Yeah
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 49:47
And I am as much as I have learned, but I learned this journey last through this lesson last year. I am raging right now, because I've had to like quit jobs and like turn things down. And I'm like, it sucks. Actually, it's like, oh, I'm missing out on the opportunity to speak into other people's lives. But even as you're talking about, I'm like, who cares about the other people's lives? Their lives are going to be like going on. Like, what is this accolade that I'm desiring when really the person that's most important? Is sitting outside that door and a switch right now. Like, that's it. But there's something so angering to me that I'm somehow missing out. And then I'm angry that like, as you said, Jonathan, I'm like, I had this feeling last year when there was another role like, kerfuffle and life had to like take a hiatus or whatever. Even that language is interesting, because what I value is life is not actually life.
Heather Thompson Day 50:41
Wow.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 50:42
So I was at a prayer day yesterday, and they played a song Take Me to the King.
Heather Thompson Day 50:46
Yes. It's one of my favorite songs
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 50:50
It's go in and one of the lines is, like, I'm all cried out, I'm all churched out. And I was laughing because I'm like, Oh, this used to be my pumpup song, eight years ago, when we were pastoring. Like a church plant. Not a good pumpup song, but just like, Okay, I need to acknowledge where I'm at. And so listening to it now, six, seven years later, I'm like, I'm angry, because I still feel that way. Also, like, oh, I actually feel it differently, though. There's been growth. If I'm, like, gut level honest, like, Jonathan, like, you're not the same person you were last year. You're not the same person you were seven years ago. I'm not the same person. Like, in some ways, I'm still Wintering. But it's for different reasons. And then, like, literally going back to what you just said, I think there are realities to what has happened in my life and what continues to happen in my life, that maybe I just need to be okay with that. Even like you just said, Jonathan, like, do you feel like you're in the same place? I'm like, maybe I do. What, like I do, but maybe that is okay. Because that's the capacity.
Heather Thompson Day 51:49
And I would say, Tryphena, like, whatever. It's not just about being okay with it, but giving compassion to yourself for it. What if we would be the the friend to ourselves that we would be to everybody else? How do we start doing that? Because the reality is, if I wouldn't, I wouldn't talk to somebody who talked to me the way that I talked to me, I would not be friends with somebody who was a friend to me the way that I talked to myself. So how do we start offering ourselves the same compassion that you easily give? Jonathan, how do you give that to yourself? And I do, and just so you know, the all the research is saying self compassion is more important than even confidence, and self esteem. Yeah, we have done so much work around how do we raise self esteem, when what we should really be doing is telling people how do we just offer ourselves compassion for the things that we've been through?
Jonathan Puddle 52:41
Yeah, that's so real.
Heather Thompson Day 52:43
More important than self esteem is your ability to offer yourself compassion.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 52:48
I know we're wrapping up. But Jonathan, a few few sessions ago, or podcasts ago, I feel like we're talking about this whole Enneagram two thing and feeling like when you're out in the world, you actually feel like you are so insecure, and it's still you, you're in a situation you think you have nothing to offer the world. And it stuck with me cuz I'm like, oh, there's so much insecurity in my life. But it's so interesting. They're like, it's not about going after the insecurity. It's about going after, like, actually the self compassion.
Jonathan Puddle 53:18
I find so many loopholes like, like, the, the travel that I was doing that Tryphena alluded to last month, was literally teaching workshops on self compassion in another country, like, so I and, and on that trip, I was so present to what I would need to do that far away alone, taking a bunch of financial risk all of that. But as soon as I get back home, it's sort of like, it's time to be businesslike and serious. And work harder slave. And it's like, yeah, so this is so good. This is so good. Thank you for leading me back to,
Heather Thompson Day 53:55
To your own workshop.
Jonathan Puddle 53:56
But what you said what you said about knowing something, versus experiencing it. If I don't stop and offer it's the knowledge accomplishes nothing.
Heather Thompson Day 54:08
Doesn't mean anything.
Jonathan Puddle 54:10
Ah, that's, that's gonna take me through till September. Heather. Thank you.
Heather Thompson Day 54:15
I hope so.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 54:16
Thank you so much for showing up as you and for having weak ties with us. Oh, my goodness.
Heather Thompson Day 54:25
Isn't that great? So good. And no pressure doesn't feel good.
Jonathan Puddle 54:31
It really does. It really does. Heather, would you pray for us? Yes. I'd
Heather Thompson Day 54:36
Yes. I'd be honored to. Dear heavenly Father. I just there's so many transitions that I heard going on as I was speaking with Jonathan and Tryphena. And so I just pray that you will remind them that you are the same God, who said to each of the disciples when they said where are we going? You said Come and see. Father to each person who is listening. May you remind them that part of following you means quite literally that we don't know. Where we're going, that doesn't mean that anything's wrong. It doesn't mean that we've messed this up it means that we are following you. So may we come and see where you are taking us. May we show up as ourselves and give compassion to ourselves as we go on this journey, in your name, amen.
Jonathan Puddle 55:16
Amen. Thank you, Heather. Thank you Tryphena. That was a lot of fun. Friends, go check the show notes or head to JonathanPuddle.com. To grab a copy of Dr. Heather Thompson Day's brand new book. I'll See You Tomorrow: Building Relational Resilience When You Want To Quit, find links to her website, HeatherThompsonDay.com. And her podcast the Viral Jesus podcast. As I mentioned, and I'm sorry, if that came as a surprise, we're going to take a pause here on The Puddcast for a little bit. I take the summers off, usually anyway. And so we're just heading into July and August now and kids are off school and I, I want to be present to them. Last summer, it was a bit of a mixed bag, I ended up regretting trying to do too much work. So I'm going to be off with my kids this summer. And then in the Fall, I've got a number of writing projects that I just have sense, are going to need some more focus. I don't have a very clear idea of what's coming next. But I'm going to take, we're going to put The Puddcast on hiatus for the time being. And I think I'll still be on social media a bit. But yeah, right now I'm just sort of needing to rest and recover. And then we're going to see what comes next. But I've got two, two books right now in active development. And I am just sensing that those are going to need to be a priority. So thank you so much for being with me for the journey here of this podcast for a few years, we haven't taken any longer than about a month or two month break since I began back in 2018. So five years, pretty wild. And I've met some amazing people and had some incredible experiences. And all of you who've listened and shared and encouraged have made it so worthwhile. So thank you to all if you would like to chip into the work that I do and support my family, you can become a patron, you can go to patreon.com/jonathanpuddle and $3 a month get you in is a real helpful blessing to my family. And my income basically comes from patrons, book sales and private consulting. The more private consulting Of course I do, the less writing I can do. So that's kind of the season that we're just sliding into. Friends Grace and peace to you. Never hesitate to drop me a line. You can email me mail@JonathanPuddle.com you'll find me on all the social medias @JonathanPuddle and I hope to be in touch again soon.