#114: Embracing an authentic spiritual life (with Liz Milani)

Liz Milani is a writer and seeker who runs The Practice Co app and Instagram, and joins me this week to talk about daily spiritual practices that are authentic to our self of sense. We talked about leaving church when our bodies break down, deconstructing and reconfiguring our faith, and reconnecting to our bodies and a more holistic, sustainable spirituality. Liz and her husband Jesse were formerly pastors at a megachurch in Australia—we have loads in common, this was a really refreshing discussion for me personally, and there’s loads of hope and practical wisdom in here for anyone wrestling with God, church and their sense of self.

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Check out the B-Side!

Once you’ve listened to this, make sure to check out the raw and uncut B-Side interview where my friends and I unpack the conversation in even more detail. Available exclusively on Patreon.

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Transcription

Jonathan Puddle  00:03

Hey friends, welcome back to The Puddcast with me, Jonathan Puddle. This is Episode 114. My guest this week is Liz Milani. She is a writer and seeker committed to helping people discover a daily practice of simple, meaningful, cliché-free spirituality—so they can live fulfilling and courageous lives. You may know Liz's work from The Practice Company, ahe has a very popular Instagram as well as an app. And I had a really delightful time in this conversation. It was so refreshing to connect to someone who grew up closer to home, Liz is from Australia, and who has journeyed in and out of church and is pursuing authentic, holistic spiritual practice. So really, really enjoyed this. We talked about connecting with our bodies, connecting with God, deconstructing, re-orienting ourselves to a spirituality that doesn't leave collateral damage in its way. So I really, really commend this interview to you. As always check the show notes for links to resources that we talked about, and at the end of the show, I will make reference to those things. Here we go. Liz Milani, I am thrilled to welcome you to The Puddcast. Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. It's morning for you and evening for me, welcome.

Liz Milani  01:31

Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Jonathan, I'm so glad to be here.

Jonathan Puddle  01:35

So we have just spent the last like 20 minutes kind of touching base and laughing at how similar our journeys are in a lot of different ways. I have just been following you on Instagram for a little while, but really enjoying what you're putting out there. I would love to hear a bit of your journey. Because like in flavor, you've got like a lot of Morgan Harper Nichols, kind of poetry and reflections. You've got touchpoints with like Aundi Kolber and this embodiment and kind of gentle trauma-aware stuff. And then there's like, there's all these like, just really gentle, gracious spiritual practices. So I was just so thrilled to discover you, I'd love to hear a bit about how you, how you would describe yourself and what space you see yourself occupying. And then a bit of how, how you got here.

Liz Milani  02:37

Thank you. Those kind words are so beautiful, thank you so much. Um, I would, I see myself as somebody who works in spiritual practice. And the great goal of my work, and the reason why I do what I do is I want to be a friend, help people create their own spiritual practices that connect them to themselves, which then connects them to the God in all. And that's quite simply, you know, what I, what I try to do. I try to help people see their own goodness, and that they don't need, they don't need to climb to the mountaintop. They don't need to sacrifice everything and everyone and all of it to meet with the divine, to have that touch point, that connection with the something that is in them, but is also beyond them. And I think I've got here because you know, we were chatting before and our paths are quite similar. But I grew up a pastor's kid in a fundamental Pentecostal environment here in Australia, and was consumed with that environment. I lived and breathed it. And you know, from there, I went to Hillsong Bible College, if I can say that on air, if not edit it out later. But I went to Bible College, became a pastor myself and was just totally engrossed in the culture of all of that. At the same time, I found more and more that I had to abandon myself, my body, my deep sense of authenticity, to continue to hold up the values of the institution that I was representing. To the point where, you know (my husband was also on on staff as a pastor in a church that we were serving at), to the point where we could no longer... the friction within ourselves was so great that we had to, we had to quit. When we quit, we didn't know... this was seven years ago. Gosh, I hope I'm making sense. But when we quit, we didn't realize what was actually happening in our hearts. We just felt so tired and dry and nothing was working. We had two little kids in, you know at home. And the spiritual spirituality was just not there. So we would get up and preach on a Sunday and help people. And it was literally like having an out of body experience. We didn't know until we quit that what was actually spiritually happening in us was the beginning of a deconstruction season, or a faith transition season, a disorientation, whatever label that, you know, there are lots of different ways people describe that. But we really had a reckoning with the faith that we were peddling, that we were upholding. And that took quite a few years to dismantle and in some ways, it's still dismantling it. But I found myself in this beautiful place of reconnecting to my spirituality by reconnecting to my body, my spirit, my sense of self, and finding God right in the middle of all of that.

Jonathan Puddle  05:51

Yeah. Come on. Yeah. Like, it's so funny, I can relate to so much of that. I remember just being like, I feel like this is a machine. And I feel utterly dehumanized. I feel like I've been turned into a cog that fits somewhere in the machine. And there's no room for humanity. I've been thinking recently, I wonder if it's different or worse, when we're serving on staff than perhaps being an average congregation member?

Liz Milani  06:26

Yeah, good question. I know a lot of people who are still involved in the church that we were a part of, and they really enjoy it. And that's great. I don't know too many people like when we left, it only took 12 months, and all of our friends that we were serving with left as well. And I just don't know, I think maybe the congregation enjoys the show. And that's what they're used to seeing. And that's what they're, you know, that's what they enjoy. But I think for the staff, and as even the volunteers, and I'm speaking generally to now, because like, you know, I did go to a big Bible College, where the students were the volunteer pack, you know, that put on conferences and all of these kinds of things. We worked bloody hard and got no sleep and worked ourselves sick to do these things. And I just looking back, now, I can't say at the time, I was like, you sacrifice everything for the kingdom, right? You lay down your life, for the sake of the call, like a good Christian soldier. But now, since deconstructing and understanding a little bit about how the Bible was written, who wrote it, and who it was written to, and what's happened to it since it was written, I understand more now and have a have a ways to go in my understanding of it, that a lot of that rhetoric about being a good Christian soldier and the sacrificing is actually the rhetoric of colonization, and the rhetoric of... jeeze, do we go there? The rhetoric of you know, white, Eastern European, people appropriating the gospel and using it to serve their own needs. And a lot of the time I see that happening in the church now, too, that people are a means to an end, that collateral damage is acceptable; it's an acceptable part of the process. But when you take all of that off the gospel, and you actually look at it, I think one of the messages of Jesus that is confrontingly clear, is that... what did I say... is confrontingly clear, is that collateral damage is something that should not be tolerated in any environment and space.

Jonathan Puddle  08:55

Come on.

Liz Milani  08:55

And yeah, so I think, you know, a lot of the time I think congregation members may not understand what's going on behind closed doors. But I think once you get involved on any level in these kinds of mega church environments that are all about putting on a service, you'll, they'll start to see the cracks. But it's like anything, you know what it's like, you can say blind to those cracks. I stayed blind to those cracks for so long, and tried to convince myself that I was doing the right thing. I was doing what I was called to do. And it took honestly, Jonathan, it took the dismantling of my health. And I had this had this really clear memory one day, I was coming home from a meeting, a staff meeting and looking in the mirror and just not even recognizing who I saw. And I was like, "What the heck am I doing?" Yeah, sorry, I know I just went around the whole rabbit trail then.

Jonathan Puddle  10:01

It's so real. It's so real. And thank you for sharing that. The number of people that I know, serving in ministry who have had to leave, who have gotten sick, whose bodies have broken down, and often in weird ways, right? Like adrenal fatigue.

Liz Milani  10:20

Very strange ways.

Jonathan Puddle  10:22

What is that? All these kinds of things where the body is essentially just like, no more, I can do no more...

Liz Milani  10:29

Can't do it.

Jonathan Puddle  10:30

...of whatever this thing is. And I, because I still serve in church, and I'm, and I'm part of a movement, somewhat. And it's so it's so interesting, because, you know, I have pastor friends, and I'm on a pastoral team, of folks who will sit down and they will hear some of these conversations, and they will just be like, "We're just sick and tired of hearing you people rag on the church all the time." And I'm, like, well, hold like, hold on; if if you, if you are in your body, you are thriving, and you are not dehumanizing other people. And you have peace and wholeness in your life—and you're in church. Fantastic!

Liz Milani  11:19

Absolutely.

Jonathan Puddle  11:20

Hang, stick around and do your thing. But I feel like...

Liz Milani  11:24

Absolutely.

Jonathan Puddle  11:25

The people who keep coming out of the woodwork to me, are the ones saying, "Oh, my God, thank you. I didn't know this was a thing. What you were talking about, I didn't realize there was a conversation of that." You know, and they feel so seen and validated. Which is why I asked you to share your story because it's so life-giving to people that are in that space going, like you said, you didn't know what it was right? You didn't know... what is this?

Liz Milani  11:54

We didn't know. And that's why I'm so happy to talk about it because... and a lot! Because I just find it so rampant amongst people who've served long term, and even, you know, as a vocation, on a church staff. And I remember when we quit, we didn't know what it was. We didn't know what was happening to us. And it was terrifying. And we felt so alone, we had no language for it, I had so many questions, and I didn't know where to put them. And so we left our positions on staff and subsequently our church in April. And then come October of that same year, I remember Jesse and I (my husband), we sat down—it was his birthday. And we found The Liturgists podcast, this was going back seven, eight years ago. And it was the first time we heard somebody outside of ourselves, articulating what we've been through. And I just remember in that moment, like crying, we both sat on the couch, drinking wine with candles everywhere, bawling our eyes out, going "We're not alone. We're not bad people." Because I know that the rhetoric around people who leave church and who have these kinds of experiences are extremely unhealthy. And I had that playing in the back of my head to like, "Am I a Jezebel? Am I a woman gone wrong? I've never, I've never wanted to disappoint people. I've always wanted to do the work of Jesus and hearing that episode was everything to us. So I'm very happy to talk about it as much as I can and normalize it and people who work in church now in healthy environments, I find those churches tend to be a lot smaller, and a lot more holistic. And I'm all about it. I think that that's fantastic. And I will champion that spiritual, that faith community where people can come together and share their spirituality in a holistic and authentic, authentic sense. I'm definitely not anti-church. But I am anti.... the idea that, I'm probably anti-megachurch, if I'm going to be honest. Or you know, have very strong feelings and very, a lot of trepidation around that kind of event-driven, bring in the masses, you know, even even making salvation, put your hand up and say a prayer. Like I don't see that anywhere in the scriptures. But that is what salvation is. And that that is what you know, is the pinnacle of success for a church environment. I think the pinnacle of success for church environment is to weep with those who weep, to mourn with those who mourn, to dance with those who dance, like that, that kind of thing is to be with each other to show up to each other in the world, in our lives as they are to encourage each other for love and good works. That's what I say should be the pinnacle of any faith community and to a sense, The Practice Co is an online faith community of sorts where that is our kind of goal or a value of ours.

Jonathan Puddle  15:05

Gosh darn it, Liz, it sounds to me like you're preaching the gospel!

Liz Milani  15:10

Oh shush!

Jonathan Puddle  15:13

This is what's so fascinating to me is that the more that I journey with this stuff, and the deeper it gets into my bones, the freedom and the love, I find myself going back through scripture now—because it's been quite a journey, quite a while for us. Now I find myself going back to scripture, and I'm like, "Hold on a minute, this Bible is actually really great. It's just been used so terribly." Like, I'm like...

Liz Milani  15:38

It's been co-opted!

Jonathan Puddle  15:39

I didn't realize this... just, just last week, I stumbled across like, and I mean, I was a missionary kid, and I get it, like...

Liz Milani  15:47

Wow!

Jonathan Puddle  15:48

I grew up in church, I know my Bible front to back. And I recently stumbled upon this verse in Samuel, buried deep in this like ragey story, where it says, "Because God doesn't want anyone to perish, he is constantly devising ways to save people."

Liz Milani  16:10

Isn't that beautiful? Isn't that beautiful? And yet we botch it!

Jonathan Puddle  16:15

I'm like you guys...

Liz Milani  16:16

So good. Oh.

Jonathan Puddle  16:18

Could've majored on some different...

Liz Milani  16:21

"Constantly devising..."

Jonathan Puddle  16:22

..coming up with schemes of redemption.

Liz Milani  16:24

Oh, it's so good. And that's that's the, that's the schism, I find is that we make redemption... "we". At large redemption is seen to be this, you know, one plus two equals three, it's done this way. It's only done this way. This is the pathway, you say these words, you do this, you don't do that, tick, tick. And there's no nuance, there's no individuality about it. There's no grace, like, it's preached at as grace. But it's not, you know, it's, "Come as you are, as long as it's like this." And you end up in this place.

Jonathan Puddle  17:06

As long as it's white. And as long as it's cerebral. And...

Liz Milani  17:10

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  17:11

As long as it's assented to the, to the proper beliefs. And most people are not going to admit to that, right? But when you boil it down, that's what we've ended up with, with. And I heard an Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox priest recently say, basically, "You guys are just Gnostics, right? You, you've just built a system of secret knowledge. And that's what gets you saved is is your secret knowledge that you have climbed the ladder to attain? And you must obviously protect it." And, and so I mean, it's no wonder certainly here in North America, we see, I see a lot of folks rediscovering church through through the Anglican Church, the Episcopal Church, Catholic Church a lot more, where there's more space for embodiment. All the senses are welcome. And that's not to say that those, those denominations and parts of the church don't have issues and their problems and their own stuff, right. Like the grass, grass is always greener. There, there are problems everywhere.

Liz Milani  18:17

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  18:17

Do you? Do you find in Australia, the work that you do now... Okay, I'm going to throw Okay, I don't have a very concise question, which is usually my problem...

Liz Milani  18:28

No but it's good.

Jonathan Puddle  18:29

throw things at you, and you can respond however fits. So...

Liz Milani  18:33

I'm ready.

Jonathan Puddle  18:34

I've got a lot of family and friends and followers in Australia. And they often say to me, they do not use the label Christian to describe themselves anymore. Because at least in in Aus, especially in the spaces that they inhabit, if someone hears they are a Christian, what they hear is, "Oh, hi, my name is Rachel and I'm a bigoted, homophobic, legalistic, gun-toting asshole." And so they don't use the word Christian to describe themselves anymore.

Liz Milani  19:01

Yeah. 100%.

Jonathan Puddle  19:04

At the same time, I know, at least historically, growing up in New Zealand, it felt like things like emotional wholeness and presence and contemplative practice. That shit was weird, man. "Just play rugby and be a man."

Liz Milani  19:21

Hahhaa... It's so funny. Sorry, keep going.

Jonathan Puddle  19:23

Anyway, so there's a, so I'm wondering how this lands and this work that you do and your journey, how it lands in the culture, how you feel about being Australian, in terms of your Christian background, but as well as in terms of like the embodiment and practice work that you do.

Liz Milani  19:40

It's such an interesting question. And it's it's difficult to, like a lot of my audience is American. And, and it can be really interesting, listening to the stories of people who've been part of the American Evangelical movement. There's some similarities between them, the Australian Pentecostal movement and that that I find. Like, I love being Australian, Australia is a beautiful country. Australia has its issues, though, like everybody else. And I think one of those issues is that we don't talk about shit. And we don't like to look at it. We have our own... its almost like a refusal to look at the things that are wrong. And it's almost like, we're so ashamed of our past, we can't even name it, and we can't even go through it. So our treatment of First Nations people, indigenous people, black and brown people in this country is horrendous. And nobody wants to talk about it. Our refugee policy is horrendous. And nobody wants to talk about it. And the problem is, when I call myself a Christian here in Australia, you're exactly right. People think that because Australians... in Australia the ones that are very vocal about their political beliefs tend to be homophobic, tend to be, you know, "Close the borders down, don't let anybody in," they tend to be anti-welfare, they tend to be un-recognizing of the destruction that the church and the colonization of this country wrought upon its indigenous, our indigenous people. And so I do find it difficult to call myself a Christian. It's a very complicated thing, and nobody will talk about it. I can't tell you, Jonathan, how many emails I get, DMs I get, conversations I have in private, with people here in this country. I'm getting passionate, calm down.

Jonathan Puddle  21:38

You do not need to calm down.

Liz Milani  21:41

Hahaha

Jonathan Puddle  21:41

I give you permission...

21:43

Thank you, oh, Lord. It's like people, because what I love about what's happening in America, one of the things I love about what's happening in America and Canada and other countries is that the conversation seems to be a lot freer. Here, like, I feel like a loner, I'm not the only person doing this work. But it's very hard work. Because for some reason to speak out against these things is taboo in Australia. Nobody wants to be a troublemaker. Nobody wants to disappoint people, nobody wants to point out something that's shameful, that will mean that we will need to change. And so to do this work here in this country, like I won't lie it's been a bit lonely. But it only makes me want to do the work more. Because privately I call myself a Christian, I believe in God, I, I love the person of Jesus, I love the theology of the Christ. I, you know, like you have found great comfort in going back and reading through the Scriptures with a different lens and find great life in it. But to call myself Christian publicly is you know... someone asked me the other day, in my DMs, "Do you still call yourself a Christian?" And I'm like, how do I answer that? Because if I say yes to some people, they're gonna think that I am all of these things that I'm not, all of these things I'm very passionately not. So honestly, I just try and do the work and show up as I am and let that do the speaking bit for me... outside of the times when I say this is who I am, and this is what I am not. God, I don't know if I've answered your question very well. But it is very interesting, being an Aussie and doing this work. I think I was saying the amount of people that email me and DM me and say, "I can't be in my church anymore. I have this problem. Why isn't anybody speaking about this?" And then I kid you not, the next weekend, I'll see them post on Instagram or Facebook, a photo of a pastor or a message or something, they're like, "Oh, this is awesome. The church is great and strong and amazing. And I'm so glad to be a part of it." And I'm like, it's like there's one thing happening underneath the surface of things here. And we're projecting, a lot of people are projecting and adhering to something else, entirely different to that. And it's not authentic, which is a very... it's a very harsh thing to say. But I do find that a lot of people that I speak to, they're claiming something publicly that they don't believe privately according to the conversations that I've had with them. And even if I can say this, at the end, some of the conversations I have with people about what I've been through, my dad was a pastor and we found out he was living a double life. So my parents were fired from their positions as pastors overnight. My husband and I were told that we would never work in an in another church ever again in Australia. Nobody would hire us because of what my dad did, the treatment of my family in that situation by the church, and then what we experienced working in a mega church for celebrity pastors... When I tell people, you know, "I'm going to speak about what I've experienced, I'm going to speak about where I think I've landed." They, they advise me not to. They're like, you can't, you can't do that, you can't upset the boat, you can't rock the boat, you can't come out and say these things. So there's definitely a really interesting undercurrent of that happening here that I don't really know how to explain. But I just keep on showing up and doing the work.

Jonathan Puddle  25:20

Honestly, Liz, that that is... ugh... I think you've been listening to my journals.

Liz Milani  25:27

Haha, awesome!

Jonathan Puddle  25:30

I mean, I, because of because I, because I still have my fingers in so many different worlds, and have people that I love and care about in all these different spaces. It just results in a... just a disastrous series of theological debates on my Facebook week after week after week. And—among other things... that's that's that's the that's the cynical way to sum it up—but...

Liz Milani  25:53

Oh, no, you get it.

Jonathan Puddle  25:54

But, but I got to this point, I feel like it was October, November last year. You know what? Time is meaningless now, so maybe it was the year before.

Liz Milani  26:04

I know...

Jonathan Puddle  26:05

The last little while where I just felt this urgency from the Spirit: "Just do the work, Jonathan, do the work. You don't need to convince anyone that you're right. You no longer need the theological approval of leader x. Just go!" People are drowning. People are thirsty, people are hungry. Like you said earlier about the collateral damage, right?

Liz Milani  26:33

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  26:33

Like Jesus' policy is exactly zero. And I think it reaches a critical mass for those of us who are empathic. I know you said that earlier, when we were emailing that you're an enneagram. Four, right? And so for you, do you lean more to the the three wing or the five? Do you know or... ?

Liz Milani  26:52

the five,

Jonathan Puddle  26:56

Five.

Liz Milani  26:57

The five wing.

Jonathan Puddle  26:58

So you know...

Liz Milani  26:58

But I am like a truer four as there can be.

Jonathan Puddle  27:02

So you know, you're... you, you're seeing this in... this stuff. And you're like, "I want people to be safe."

Liz Milani  27:10

I want people to be safe.

Jonathan Puddle  27:12

"I want people to not be hurting."

Liz Milani  27:17

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  27:17

And it's like, I feel, you know, all that stuff. But... do the work. So OK, I want to hear more about the work for you. I've got, I've got one of your meditations here that I'd like to read out if that's okay.

Liz Milani  27:35

Yeah, please do.

Jonathan Puddle  27:38

This is from just the other day. "Joy is holy. Wonder is holy. Pleasure is holy. Happiness is holy. Whimsy is holy. Don't be duped into thinking that only the somber and straight faced things are sacred."

Liz Milani  27:56

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  27:57

Come on!

Liz Milani  28:00

Yeah. Well, I was taught and I'm imagine that you were growing up too... that, the complete opposite.

Jonathan Puddle  28:07

"This is the house of the Lord!"

Liz Milani  28:09

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  28:09

"Be quiet and serious!"

28:11

Take your hat off. Wear you good clothes, you know. Kids, kids had to behave themselves. And like I was a bit... I'm an enneagram four, we've just discussed that. So I was very creative, whimsical kid, I believed in magic, I believe... I believed in all of these different things. Because the world was a big, wide, wonderful, magical, happy, beautiful place! And it was the church that came up to me and said, "No, no, be serious, take yourself seriously." I remember being sat down by my youth pastor when I was 17. And I used to love Celtic... here we go. Here's a random fact: I'm a super nerd, I love Celtic fantasy, historical fiction. I have a Scottish background, on my mother's side of the family. And I'm just all about that stuff all day long. And, you know, I used to want to write it. I had Celtic poems and prayers and all the stuff all over my walls. And a person sat me down and they said, "You're going to have to throw away those childish things. And you're going to have to get serious about the Word of God and the call of God on your life." The Bible says, 'Throw away childish things and grow up,' you know, what's that verse about ummm becoming mature in the faith and all of that. And those verses were really weaponized against my sense of whimsy and even the idea of happiness being policed. There's a lot of focus on joy, and joy, the idea of joy is even when things are terrible, you can have the joy of the Lord. That happiness... people like you know, not used to thinking that happiness can be a sacred thing. But I think, gosh, when you find happiness, you revel in that stuff, you cover yourself in it as if you are having a spiritual experience, because you are! And it's these things that, you know, help you grow, that helps me connect to God. I'm rambling a little bit, but I just was like God, if God is in all and through all and by things, by God, all things exists, then that means that all the things... it's everything.

Liz Milani  30:31

[muffled]. And so as much as you can find God in the pain and the suffering and the sacrifice, you can find God in the pure silly, and the happy, and the wonderful, and random stuff as well. And I just like to remind people of that.

Jonathan Puddle  30:32

All the things! Yes, come on. I love that. This is a... this is silly, but, but my wife and I have been journeying a lot with the pleasure topic for the last couple of years. And that's been really big for her because that was not a realm that she had ever had any grid for, just in her own upbringing and her outlook on life.

Liz Milani  31:12

Oh, I can imagine.

Jonathan Puddle  31:13

Very high, she's an eight and very high, like safety and control, because of a bunch of things in her upbringing. And then you marry that into purity culture, and all the other things that we all grew up with, right. And so for the last couple of years, one of her like, on her board, she's very structured and has has plans and goals. And it's like, "Learn to value pleasure."

Liz Milani  31:35

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  31:36

So that's been explored in lots of different fun ways. But I was, you remember, Zoolander? Where Will Ferrell, Will Ferrell's character has gone on this rant about the piano key necktie? And he's like, "The piano key necktie! I invented it!!!" And I don't know...

Liz Milani  31:59

You do that very well!

Jonathan Puddle  32:00

Thank you. I do not know what prompted this. But I was, I was literally cutting a hole in drywall, trying to find a leak in our bathroom. And I felt the voice of the Spirit, say, "The orgasm! I invented it!!!"

Liz Milani  32:20

That's so good. You need to make that like a little reel that you can like put out into the world. That is the thing! That's the thing we forget, we... my God, I can, I totally know what... I don't totally know, because I don't know your wife. But I can completely imagine why she would put that on a board, a list of values, because I had to do the same thing. You know, as a woman growing up in faith, everything was our fault. Every failure of man was our fault. Every... it was our responsibility to enable men to keep their thoughts pure. And I just, you know, everything is about laying down your life, for your frickin family, for the church, for ya children, even having joy in my kids, even saying to my kids, "Nah, mommy's on... mommy's having a break. You can go chat to Daddy." But that's taken me a lot. Because as a woman growing up in the faith, God, you exist, to for everybody and to everything else, except for yourself. So to reclaim those places of pleasure in every aspect is revolutionary. And necessary. Completely 100% necessary. Because yes, God did invent sex. God did invent the orgasm. It's a sacred and spiritual experience. And yet we deny the holiness of it all the time. And I just, you know, wonder what would happen if we reclaimed those places, and embodied those places for ourselves? Seriously, in a free and whole way?

Jonathan Puddle  34:04

Yeah. Talk to me a bit about the ways that people are connecting with your work. I know you've got obviously like your Instagram, but I think you've gotten an app, and a bunch of things like...

Liz Milani  34:15

Yup.

Jonathan Puddle  34:15

Talk to me about the community and, and what, what it's like.

Liz Milani  34:20

Well, we have an app in both the Google Play Store and iOS store, and it's a daily devotional. We started this while we were still in church, so the work has evolved as we have evolved. But it started as a daily devotional and it became a huge value of ours, of ours as the work evolved to keep it a daily devotional. I have issues with the word "devotion" that there's just nothing else that we can really call it to describe what it is... because every day it's a touch point. It's something to help. And a lot of it has been what has helped me when I'm writing it, I'm not writing it as, as a guru, as a spiritual leader above and beyond other people, I'm right in there with everybody doing the work myself. And I figure if I can share this and take, allow other people to use it to help their own journeys, then that's a beautiful, holy thing. So it's a touch point every day to help people come back home to their bodies, find their own sense of God in their world, no matter what is going on, whether it's huge, small, painful, wonderful, completely mediocre, like 95% of it is, and have that touch point. And so the app is our big focus. And that's where I put most of my time and energy into creating content for the app. Then we have our Instagram page, which has bits and pieces from the app on it for people who may not be able to afford a subscription to the app. And I love hanging out on the comments and DMs on Facebook—not Facebook, on Instagram—anyway, but they're the two main places that we inhabit at the moment. And then we have three volumes of our devotions. We've put into like a visual book, it's a quite a large sort of book that's designed as a visual journey as well as a devotional journey and we tend to put those out at the end of every year, as well, for people who like a tactile thing to to sit with and draw in.

Jonathan Puddle  36:23

Like a coffee-table size book?

Liz Milani  36:25

Yeah, kind of like that. Yeah, yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  36:28

Oh, that's awesome.

Liz Milani  36:30

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  36:30

I'll have to get some of the books then. That sounds great.

Liz Milani  36:33

Oh, we will send you some, we will send you something. Too easy.

Jonathan Puddle  36:38

We will take a quick pause to thank all of my patrons. Shout out to LJ who is my newest monthly supporter and shout out to Séverine and Lindy who have both given one-time gifts in the last week. Friends, your support and encouragement mean the world to me. Thank you to everybody who supports the show; who supports my work; comments on my stuff; who reads my book; orders copies for friends. I heard the other day of somebody who bought 10 copies of my book to give to all of their children. And that is just super cool. So, friends if you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to chip in, head to patreon.com/JonathanPuddle, or if you'd like to give a one time gift, I've just made that a bunch easier than it was before. You can go to jonathanpuddle.com/support, and there's an easy form there to give a one-time donation if monthly or annual giving just isn't your thing. Thank you so much for listening. And we'll get back to the show.  You wrote this, I saw this again on your Instagram just this week: "There is good in you. It is good to be you. It is good that you are here. You are an expression of divine goodness."

Liz Milani  37:54

Yeah, that...

Jonathan Puddle  37:54

That's so good.

Liz Milani  37:57

Thank you.

Jonathan Puddle  37:59

How much... how much of your time do you believe that?

Liz Milani  38:02

Well don't ask that! Hahahah! Well, there's a reason why I keep writing that—that's a huge thing in my work at the moment. And to be honest, I think the idea that you are ever going to reach a point in your life where you're not going to have to remind yourself of these things every day is a little far fetched, because you can heal from pain and trauma, but you can't heal yourself from human experience. You're always going to experience what it's like to be human. And things are going to happen along in your life or...

Jonathan Puddle  38:39

"You can heal from trauma, but you can't escape the human experience."

Liz Milani  38:46

Exactly, exactly! And so there are things that get... that are gonna happen. I find in my life, I get to a point I was having conversation with my friend who's a psychotherapist the other day, and I'm like I said, "Nicole, it's like I get to this point where I feel like I'm, I'm in and I'm on and it's good. And then something happens and it all goes to shit." She's like, "Welcome to the human experience." And so having those prayers and mantras (whatever label that you want to put on them), they're a great touchstone for me, and for everybody to come back to. And I figure if I have to keep coming back to this, then I can imagine other people have to keep coming back to this. Every time you feel like you are not good, every time you feel like there is no good in you. I mean, I was brought up believing the only thing good about me was Jesus, and the only good thing I can do is because of Jesus. And so I took that to mean, I mean, I grew up in this stuff and you did too, as a child. So it's actually abusive when you drill down into it, but at 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 I'm being told—and I believe in my childlike awareness—that there is nothing good in me. That was drilled into me day in day out: the only thing, you know, "All glory to God!" Whenever something good came from me it was like, you know, "It's not me, it's Jesus." And so even reclaiming that so, I'm gonna say, that was me! I do do good work. And it's not "either or" it's "together and." It is God, it is me, it is us together, it is integrated, not separated. That the goodness, the goodness thing is, is a big deal for me and it's something that I, I have to keep coming back to willingly and authentically. I am good. It is good to be here. It is good to be me. I am an expression of divine goodness. Yeah, it's a powerful thing.

Jonathan Puddle  40:45

So good.

Liz Milani  40:45

And I think if people can let go of that idea of, you know, you're going to get to a place where, I don't know, a Zen Jesus teaching master on a mountaintop, never having to do this work, you need to change your goal. I think a good goal is to be someone who can show up in grace and courage to whatever is going on in your life at any given moment. And that's where I'm at. So.

Jonathan Puddle  41:15

That's so good. I remember, after I'd written my book of devotions, and published it, and we're in the midst of COVID, I think, I think it was before it had come out—I'd finished editing it, and it was on the way, but I hadn't released it yet—and I just, I was shocked to discover how busted up I had gotten by COVID. And I was like, Oh, right, you have to keep going. Of course.

Liz Milani  41:42

You gotta keep doing the work! hahaha. COVID was another thing for us all, hey. Like it redefined so many—and is still redefining—so many things that we just thought were rules of how the world works, and reorienting, having to reorient ourselves, you know, with new values and new practices, and new ways of doing things. It's going to be a constant thing in our lives. (Sorry, that was my phone's going off. Turn that on silent.) Yeah, it's a big, it's a big thing. You're never going to arrive. Sorry, people. Doesn't happen. And that's the glory of it.

Jonathan Puddle  42:25

That's so good. I'm, I was talking to my therapist a couple of weeks ago, I was in session. And, and we're we just started in January, so there's still lots of discovery that we're doing and, you know, lots of exploratory stuff. And I said to him, "Oh, Nick, you know, I should, I don't think I've had a chance to mention, but I really, I really do struggle with quite a savior complex." Part of my Enneagram Two, I really just so much...

Liz Milani  42:54

Oh wow, yup.

Jonathan Puddle  42:55

is bound up in, in my meaning coming from helping and saving people...

43:01

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  43:01

And he's like, okay, and so he, he already knows me fairly well. And he says, "Yeah, that can, you know, I do understand that that can be debilitating. And that we can, that we can sometimes rob people of doing their own work because we're so into... with bad boundaries, into their space. I think that's what you're referring to." And I'm like, "Yeah, Yeah, exactly. All the bad stuff." And he's like, "Yes, yes. But you know... to be, to save people... it's pretty good thing, isn't it? You know, I mean to me, if you're if you're saving people, that's a very Christ-like sort of activity, wouldn't you say, Jonathan?"

Liz Milani  43:51

Wow!

Jonathan Puddle  43:53

And I couldn't I couldn't get there. I was like, Oh, you... there's a button there that, that is...

Liz Milani  44:00

Ooof. That's good. Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  44:02

There's something good? About...

Liz Milani  44:04

Yeah!

Jonathan Puddle  44:04

...Me?

Liz Milani  44:07

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  44:08

And it was another whole layer of the onion that was like, yeah, I'm here. I'm here and I am not comfortable accepting my goodness, and accepting...

Liz Milani  44:20

That's the thing.

Jonathan Puddle  44:20

God designed me and blessed me to be a blessing, to be a savior. Not...

Liz Milani  44:29

Yeah!

Jonathan Puddle  44:30

Obviously I'm not climbing up here on the cross and...

Liz Milani  44:35

No but that's how it works, isn't it?

Jonathan Puddle  44:37

Well, that is... that's it. We are.

Liz Milani  44:39

Like we help each other. That's how the, that's how the world works. Because one day you know, I'll save you and then the next day you'll save someone else and then the day after that someone will have to save me and then from all the different things that we go through, like help is, and I mean, I'm I struggle with this so much as well. So like I only started putting my name to my work a couple of years ago. And because I was so freaked out about, you know, who am I to even claim to know any of this stuff or to be able to offer any of this stuff? I feel, you know, imposter syndrome is a big thing that I struggle with. And I completely relate to that, completely, completely relate to that. And even now, you know, people DM me and stuff and I'm just like, "Ahhhhh haha, I don't know what to say. Thanks." Because it's really difficult to take on board that you do do good work that contributes, that helps, that does save in any and every sense of the word, that it does. Yeah, you're completely right. I'm gonna that's a really... I'm gonna write that down after this, Jonathan, what your therapist said to you cause it's really good.

Jonathan Puddle  45:53

Yes. Yes, there's so much in, there's so much in us, right, that's vulnerable, right? Like, like, we're a really vulnerable species, you know? We take a long time to develop as babies and all this kind of stuff, we're extremely vulnerable to pain and suffering. And very quickly, we build up, "Well, it must be my fault." And we start off with this egocentric thing... I was talking to a friend, we do a B-Side, I'll do a B-Side with somebody on this interview: they'll listen to it and then that's up for my for my Patrons. And

Liz Milani  46:24

Aww thats so cool!

Jonathan Puddle  46:25

We have so much fun with that, honestly. And we just did a B-Side for an interview that went up around spiritual practices as as well as, like contemplative prayer practices as a pathway to wholeness and health and as a discipleship resource. And my guest on the B-Side said, "You know, I'm leaning into a space where it looks like Original Sin is maybe just the egocentric developmental stage of being really little."

Liz Milani  46:57

Yes.

Jonathan Puddle  46:59

"Part of, part of growing up, and we do have to learn ways of being less egocentric. But that's doesn't mean our ego is is evil, or wretched, or to be killed." It's just, you know, we start off vulnerable and woundable and terrified of death. And we're going to, we're going to hold on to that fear of death for most of our life. But through all these things, disentangling ourselves from the distorted beliefs about ourself and about God,

Liz Milani  47:32

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  47:33

That formulate in us and, which unfortunately, the church has done really little to save us from...

Liz Milani  47:41

Well in, I would even take it one step forward and say that in a lot of church spaces—this is a very general statement, and I'm not talking about every church space—but unfortunately, I think a lot of church spaces perpetuate toxic beliefs and practices about the self. So not only are they not working to untangle and provide freedom and wholeness for people, I think a lot of churches actually perpetuate that toxic and abusive environment that only further drives those behaviors and beliefs and deeper into the subconscious. And the body, which I think is devastating and horrendous.

Jonathan Puddle  48:25

If someone is listening to this, and just this last little bit right here is triggering something in them, especially if they are involved in church, what would you say to that person?

Liz Milani  48:37

It's a really difficult thing. I still have friends that serve on the church that I left. And I have friends who say, who've left the church, but have very different views to me, and to what I experienced. And part of it, I've learned for myself, is that I have to let it be. And so for people who this is triggering to hear, and it's not their experience, and they find it very difficult... that's okay. I'm not against people having a different experience to what I've had in the church. And I think that's part of what we find difficult to cope with. As humans, we're very much brought up to be an either or. So either you're for us, or you're against us. Either we all believe the same thing or we're stuffed. Like, but I think to hold the tension of both things being true, can be a really difficult place, but it is the place of connection. So if someone's hearing this and it's triggering for them, I would say I get it 100%, I get it and you're allowed to have those feelings, you're allowed to feel that way. And my challenge to you would be to let both things be true. Let your good experience of church be true. And let my bad experience of church be true. It's like anything like, you know, I can say, I had a bad upbringing, but there were beautiful things about my upbringing, too. I can say, I had a bad church experience. But there were beautiful things about that my church experience too. Nothing is an either or. And I think, to let both things be true, is the place of connection. I would also say though, the church is very good at needing things to be a certain way. And I feel the great challenge for a lot of faith communities moving forward, especially during and post COVID is to listen; to open up their hearts and listen to the experiences of others, and to what others are trying to say. I think the MeToo movement has been really powerful in that space. And the church will do really well to learn from it, that when someone speaks out about abuse, and pain, and trauma that they've experienced, listen. Like that's the first step is to listen. Even if it's triggering for you, even if it's hard to hear. Because those things are hard to speak about too! So to really challenge yourself and open your heart. And listen, let both things be true. And take your time with it. We don't need to have everything sorted out today. We don't need anybody to land anywhere in particular today. We can take our time with that, and allow healing to come, allow the truth to arise, allow space to be created in both hearts, both sides of the conversation to allow for each other. Does that make sense?

Jonathan Puddle  51:49

Definitely. Definitely. That's a great, great response. Very, very kind. If someone, if someone is listening to this, and they are saying, "Ah, this is, this is what I'm going through. I didn't know why my body was getting sick. I didn't know why, I what this icky, icky feeling has been for the last six months. I need to go and get free." What would you say to that person?

Liz Milani  52:20

Almost the same thing. Take your time. You're not alone. It's okay. You don't have to have everything figured out today. Follow your curiosity. Your body tells the truth. You know the truth already. It's in you. And it's your road and holy work to find it. But the big thing I think for me, what I experienced, and growing up in the church, I was very afraid of being in no man's land. Like, I really liked to know, and I really like to have things sorted out, you know, and I'm still that way. I write my lists. I like to have my safety net and my guarantees. And I think if you can relax and allow yourself some ambiguity that will serve you. Because, you know, my husband tells a story... sorry, Jesse, I'm going to speak on your behalf... He tells the story of how when he first began deconstructing and was figuring out when it was time for him to leave his staffing role at the church (because he had quite a big role), he walked the beach every day. We live around the corner from the beach here in Australia. And he would walk that beach every day thinking, asking, praying, and one day he heard Spirit say to him, "Don't you think I'm big enough for your questions? Don't you think I'm big enough for your unbelief? Like if I am meant to be this big entity that is above all, and is, you know, too complex to be understood, don't you think I can hold your unbelief and your doubt, don't you think I can handle that?" And that was the permission that he needed to do what he needed to do. And I will say that too, people who are having that, it can be so disorienting and it can feel like you're about to lose everything—and you might lose some things, and it probably will be quite painful. So give yourself some grace. Allow yourself some ambiguity. One of my favorite quotes is Joseph Campbell, "The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek." And I encourage everybody to enter that cave of deconstructing, of following your curiosity, of being in the dark for a while because soon enough, your eyes will adjust and you will find what it is you're looking for. Only to find that it opens the door to a whole heap of other beautiful questions that you will live your life enjoying discovering, if that makes any sense at all, so...

Jonathan Puddle  55:02

So beautiful. Liz, would you pray for us?

Liz Milani  55:07

I will. My prayers are a little bit different. I believe prayer is space of connection between you and God, and you and yourself. And a lot of my prayer is filled with silence and allowing things to be as they are. So, you know, I might go through a few little prompts. And it might not sound like a prayer, but this is a prayer for me. So I would just say, I would like to invite you into this moment of calm and peace. Take a few deep breaths. Close your eyes and just settle into yourself. And find that point of love that you call God, that is God, that is in you. And just like a child would bring to their parent, an artwork or something they've written or something they've created, why don't you just take your heart and unveil it to that love that is within you right now. Let it do it's speaking for you. God knows. Love is with you. And grace is for you through whatever it is that you're going through. And the great thing is, is that you can come back to this point at any time during the day. I use my breath as a way to bring me back to moments of prayer, moments of connection with the divine. And whatever works for you. You can do that too, to bring you back to that place of oneness, that place where love seems to prevail above every other thing that you're feeling. And I just pray that grace and peace would be with you as you move throughout your day. Amen.

Jonathan Puddle  56:56

Amen. I love that! I love when people pray in a way that's not just your typical Western, cerebral kind of, "words offered to God." Maybe when we tune in emotionally and with our bodies and offer something up, you know, is the spiritual realm solely a realm of words? No, of course not. We know this. And yet we're so conditioned to pray just with this one means, in our, in our Western Euro-centric mindsets. So, love that Liz, thank you for helping lead the way and share your journey with us. Friends, head over to ThePracticeCo.com and you'll find all of Liz and her husband Jesse's work there. You'll find links to the app, you can also just find The Practice Co in your app store. And of course on Instagram @ThePracticeCo and @lizzy.milani. Those are all linked in the show notes, go and order some of their books, sign up for the app and become a part of their community. They're a wonderful group doing amazing things. Also, you'll find in the show notes the transcript for this if you're looking for the text, it's all there and you'll find links to support me and find my book and follow along with everything else that I've done. Thank you so much for listening. May you find grace and peace surrounding you. May hope and joy be your portion. And may these difficult days be behind us. Much love!