#129-B: Debriefing Jonathan Martin on the road away from God

Time for another B-Side! Tryphena and I kept the mics rolling after we bid farewell to Jonathan Martin, and we leaned into his thoughts on God walking with us, even as we think we’re walking away. We riff on the divine power revealed in human agency, finding peace in the knowledge that God is present in everything, discerning the simple next steps in front of us, and walking life out in community.

For maximum impact, make sure you listen to our source episode, #129: Finding hope on the road away from God (with Jonathan Martin).

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Transcription

Jonathan Puddle  00:00

Welcome back to The Puddcast B-Sides. This is fun, this is the first time we've been able to immediately record a B-Side,Tryphena, and hopefully it goes really well. Maybe it'll be a disaster.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  00:09

Well we were drinking in the last... in the actual interview.

Jonathan Puddle  00:12

We were drinking in the interview, we've both cut ourselves off, because there will be a time later today where we have to do responsible adult things. And so we are making responsible adult choices right now. But we were just discussing the major problem with Jonathan Martin

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  00:30

He's too humble, Jonathan Martin, he's too humble.

Jonathan Puddle  00:33

He's too humble. And the problem is, is that you start sharing your life because he's such an amazing listener, and he offers such a safe space. And he and he offers you that permission. Right, that he talks about, and that the book did very much so for me,

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  00:48

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  00:50

And so you end up suckered into his safe, loving arms. And as a podcast host, you're trying to ask insightful questions to display his wisdom of which there is a great amount of listening.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  01:04

But even when you ask him a question, he's like, Oh, well, I love that. And then it just, it turns into, I'm like, just, oh, just tell us all of your brilliance. And instead, it's beautiful conversation. But you know what I actually think he embodies the idea of like, he's a, he's like, a prophetic wisdom guide with a wise elder and not a king, right? He's like, I'm not here to like, give you all of my wisdom and like, no, but I want your wisdom, because you've lived this and you've grappled with it. And yeah, he's just.

Jonathan Puddle  01:38

Yes. But that's, this is so interesting, because, because the mediums that we communicate with whether it's book, or podcast, written word, microphone at church, podium, whatever, those mediums are not neutral, and the way that they position someone have impact. And, and it's kind of like, like Marc Schelske, and I talk about this all the time that the way we do our work must be contagious with the message of our work.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  02:21

Yeah, awesome.

Jonathan Puddle  02:22

We've done so I think in it's actually very Integris. Like, I think Jonathan, the fact is, is Jonathan Martin is just consistently himself. And so and so we might want him to sit here and, and perform authoritatively.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  02:40

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  02:42

But, but that's not the man. And so, you what you get invited to instead is an intimate conversation where as you said, our hearts were burning. They were I was too I was just like, I don't want this to end. But I'm looking at the clock and I know he's got another interview and.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  02:59

Felt like a Bridgerton moment, like my heart burns. Okay, sorry. But oh my goodness Jonathan.

Jonathan Puddle  03:08

I'm so pleased that the particular kind of, of adjectives used for impassioned burning of heart is Bridgerton. Let it be clear that I thoroughly enjoyed Bridgerton Season One. I have not watched any of Bridgeton Season Two because I just don't have time.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  03:27

Two is when like the South Asian comes to shine. Also, I can't get my husband to watch either that with me. So.

Jonathan Puddle  03:34

if there's no Raj on I'm not there.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  03:36

No, he is beautiful. Okay. I changed my mind on drinking Bourbon while we do interviews.

Jonathan Puddle  03:44

He had just agree that we should do all interviews with Bourbon. And clearly now we have decided, we shall do no more interviews with Bourbon. But that's Jonathan Martin's fault.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  03:52

Yes. Okay. But honestly, so sorry, going back. I'm going to like rein it in here. Jonathan, what were you talking about?

Jonathan Puddle  04:02

Okay. Here's a quote from Jonathan Martin. If you want to know Jesus, the invitation is not come and pray a prayer, but taste and see that the Lord is good. Cheers.

Jonathan Puddle  04:19

I think that's I think, again, that's kind of what Jonathan is embodying. I think that's such a huge part of his message. I was looking back over the notes of our interview from two years ago, and listening into some of what we had discussed last time. And it was it was, again, some similar themes in terms of God being present and all the mess and I think really, that's, that's a lot of his core message is, is wherever you are and whatever road you're on whatever darkness you find yourself and you're not alone. There is a there is a love with you, and not just a nebulous love, a love that maybe, maybe you're going to call the light or maybe you're gonna call a number of different names. But I love that you are also welcome and invited to call Jesus of Nazareth.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  04:19

Cheers.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  05:08

Yeah, so crystal like even taking about two seconds just even when we talk when you spoke about the idea of like not being disingenuous when you have some sort of a platform. And so because right now we're speaking and there's mics in front of our face, somehow there's this ideal that we have it all together. But I love what Jonathan Martin did. And what he embodies is that, you know, we don't have to have it all together. And we're all on this journey. And that love is walking with us on the street that Jesus is walking with us. On this journey, I feel like that's actually really profound and powerful. Because so much of what we have been taught, we talked about, like this whole, like, idea of like, in the generation that we came up in, we were taught, if you do things one way, then it'll be an equation. It's like two plus two equals four. If you do this, God's gonna do this for you, right. And I think so much of that was taught to us because pastors and leaders were trying to make a sermon point, just umbrella of grace. It was like, Hey, I was in this place. And I did this. And this is how God showed up. But really, it didn't show all the messiness in between. And it didn't show the fact that actually right now things are not completely perfect. And tomorrow, things might change. And I think that is what I really appreciated about Jonathan Martin, and even about this conversation that we're having is that it's messy, and it's not perfect. And like Richard Rohr talks about like, it's cyclical. And often we're going in cycles, and sometimes that means we're going backwards, and we're going full circle, or whatever that looks like. But in all of the mess of life, that we can be grounded in God like the God of love Jesus of Nazareth, walking it with us.

Jonathan Puddle  06:59

Yeah, seriously. I'm gonna just gonna read a bunch of Jonathan Martin quotes, I think for the length of this beside because, I mean, highlighted so much. To that point, Jonathan writes, If you missed the exit, then God missed it too. But as it turns out, is where you are. If where you are, is where God is, then where you are, is where you're supposed to be.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  07:27

Which doesn't that flip everything on its head, like you have agency, you have free will to make those decisions. And God is with you. Sorry, keep going. Keep going.

Jonathan Puddle  07:36

I'm with you. 100%. I love this. He also wrote that I put thematically in the same area of my document. Love doesn't need a permission slip to follow you into the heart of darkness. Because again, like we've been raised with such a like, well, that person is not a follower of Jesus.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  08:02

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  08:02

They're not a believer. And and that somehow implies some level of isolation of cut off fitness from God. And I certainly don't mean to like, okay, if you're, if you're listening, and you have a marked point in your life, where you decided to turn and follow Jesus, like, great, and I don't mean to devalue any sense of of like, switch that you experienced in your life. Like, I have many friends who were like, yeah, I felt like the lights came on. Yeah, I felt like a heaviness lifted, and I moved in the direction of hope and love. Oh, my God. That's it. But you moved in the direction of hope and love because something inspired you to.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  08:45

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  08:46

Right. And, and surely, it was not a sense of abandonment. Right. It's an invitation. It's like, yeah, there's a goodness. Yeah, there's a, there's a pole, there's a pulse. There's a some thing that I don't even have words for that I'm going to move in the direction of. And maybe and maybe that did come through the sinner's prayer. I think that's so I love it at the end where you Jonathan was like, it's the spirits actually present on both sides, right. Including the places we've deemed as as toxic and have written off.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  09:28

I wrote down everyone has access to the spirit like that, right there.

Jonathan Puddle  09:36

Because I think for us moving into more liberated spaces. And even just again, having come off this holiday, and spend time with people who would categorically not identify themselves as religious at all they would. Some some friends would get were secular. We don't believe in God or gods but I witnessed them, lean into supernatural levels of grace and witness them access to the Holy Spirit.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  10:07

Yeah, come on.

Jonathan Puddle  10:09

And I think that's the liberation that I've come to is to see ah, yes, but look at all these people who don't have the badge sewn on their, their jackets, but they're still accessing the Holy Spirit. But I'm reminded that the people that perhaps I have, I don't know written off or would like to written off, or at least in the shower, when I'm ranting, the people that I've written off, also have access to the Holy Spirit. And there are those those, those moments those glimpses where truth and hope and life break, break through, and they speak a word of peace to somebody, even in spaces that we've had to distance ourselves from, because they came, they became destructive in our lives.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  10:54

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  10:56

He said something. I forget the exact word he used, but but it was really just like, just trusting. He was talking about I think about the table and about the group, and about just trusting each other's discernment. And I'm just like, man, that is so easy to say isn't ideal. I think that's rare.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  11:16

Okay, so I was just having this conversation this morning with another friend on how there's so much power in the corporate discernment, right? Because you have people who show up with different life experiences, different cultural experiences, and who look different, right? So really simply a worship song that one person can sing. And it does not trigger them at all, can be very triggering to someone else. Because one. So many of our worship songs sound like sexual innuendos. And so that's, I'm really winning tonight. But it looks so there's, there's something that can be triggering in your own body, right? Another thing as a person of color, how something can respond like you can react to something based on your life experience. And so I think I think there was so much power in him to say, there has to be unity there, there wasn't uniformity. But everybody needed to discern peace in these situations, because everyone was showing up with a different experience. And so you're going to access different parts of Holy Spirit in that way, maybe?

Jonathan Puddle  12:20

I think so. And I think that unity doesn't strictly have to mean that you all agree or that you will agree to the same amount. It can even be, you know what, guys? I have trepidation on this subject. But if but if y'all can hold my hand, maybe this is not going to be what I fear it's going to be. I'm willing to be led by my friends in this area. Yeah, I have a lot of fear. And maybe I don't even trust my own discernment at present. Because I know this is a sphere of great prior pain and fear for me. But if everyone else is willing, and feels good, can you can I be safe enough to share that maybe I'm the odd one out, maybe I already feel self aware and ashamed that I'm the odd one out. But I don't have to stay on the outside. I I'm also being courageous that I can be led with you. Like I think that like we have so few models, I think so few concrete examples of what this kind of unity looks like.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  13:30

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  13:31

I think that there's so there's such greater degree of variance in how community relationships can really play out.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  13:41

So I, did I interrupt you? No? Okay. I was really struck in his book when he spoke about reading scripture, scripture, Judaic scripture, rabbinic scripture was meant to be read within a faithful community, like those two words, faithful community meant so much to me. Because even as you're talking about, unity can look different. And some of it just means hey, I'm nervous, can you hold my hand in it? That means you're part of a faithful community that's going to be with you in the ins and outs, right, as much as we continue to deconstruct purity culture, in my own personal life, not putting this at anyone. I love the idea of sex within marriage, because I'm like, It's messy, and it's complicated. And so to be in that faithful community, where we can figure it out together, is beautiful. So I love how he talked about Scripture was meant to happen within that covenant spirit was meant to be read within that covenant space. So you can dialogue about it and question and build on the questioning. And I just, you're right, that we don't have a lot of models of faithful community, like how do we genuinely do that? And genuinely agree to show up in all of our messiness and all of our pain, you know, like walk that road, like gotta meet us wrote of hopelessness and still love each other and not cancel somebody out because of a viewpoint that they take. We don't agree with.

Jonathan Puddle  15:12

Yeah, totally. It's, it requires a so many things, right. Like, like what we're describing is something that's robust.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  15:19

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  15:20

That is very dynamic. Flexible. But profoundly robust. And that I think requires of each individual, a great measure of peace, self acceptance. Since man, since we since we interviewed Sweeney, and I said this to you on the phone the other day, we I keep coming back to this thing that he talked about in the book about, about when our value is called into question.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  15:51

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  15:52

You know, and he's, I think I forget the chapter. But I think it was like, in the subject, where, like, the thing that we're upset about isn't really the thing. And underneath all of that, is that when, when my wife or my friend or someone does something, or acts in a certain way, and it triggers me, it's because in the past, I felt devalued when this kind of thing happened? Or maybe it is, maybe it just triggers a memory of a child from my childhood when something happened, right. And so, again, we were on vacation, and we were connecting with friends. We haven't seen some cases in 10 years. And there are dynamics, right? There are ways of relating, and

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  16:34

You're not the same person, you were 10 years ago.

Jonathan Puddle  16:36

You're not the same person anymore. Neither are they.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  16:39

No.

Jonathan Puddle  16:39

But there was one particular to at least one that I can recall, where there was a friend who, who said something in a way that I felt was dismissive of what I just said. And I immediately went to this guy, he's always, you know, and the whole thing played off in my head. Was he hasn't changed hasn't grown at all. And, and I remember just sitting there with myself. Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on. What? What about what just took place? called your value into question? Okay. Yes. It felt like this person didn't listen to what I said. Okay. So, Jonathan, is your value in question? No, no, it is not. Okay. And I think from I think you, I think, yeah, kind of this community, right. Like, it takes a lot for, I think, for us each to grow to that place where we can sit with our value, and where we can disagree. And we will we can even argue and even disconnect and even have what feels a little disconcerting. But still sit with my value is not being questioned. I mean, I think you can then follow that road further to say actually, my value is not even questionable.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  18:09

Come on. Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  18:11

But I mean, baby steps, right.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  18:13

Yeah. Okay, so with that said, absolutely. Like our values not questionable. As Jonathan puddle would say, we are enough. But as like, I think one of the things that Jonathan Martin said today was interesting was just the idea of, sometimes there's still power in giving people permission and freedom. To go on the journey, you're almost like calling out like their identity calling out like that God part on that, right. And there is something really significant about that I get perplexed in our culture, where we get so stuck in using people's proper pro-nouns. I'm like, hey, if we can call somebody by the identity, and they're seeing on themselves, there's actually something so empowering about somebody affirming what you're seeing, like who you are. I'm digressing. But anyways, I do

Jonathan Puddle  19:12

even know but I think okay, that makes perfect sense. In the prophetic community at the church that I grew up in, I remember then somebody somebody had changed their name from like, a short form nickname of their name to their full name and they were in their 30s and they said you know what, I have felt that it's time for me to lean into the full meaning and form of my name and everybody respected that ensure a handful of people just got it was difficult in their head because they were used to one thing but a six months to two years tops, and everyone's made the change. Is it so hard to apply that to pro-nouns or even gender swapped names and so on and so forth? Seems not. It seems like it shouldn't be.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  20:02

Because if your worth didn't just come from who you are, and we get to be the body of Christ and call up that worth of people like what? Why has it becomes a difficult anyways, I really have digressed here, but I do. I do think there is so much power in what he said. And what you're saying and that are worth cannot be revoked from us.

Jonathan Puddle  20:34

But sometimes, sometimes it's helpful to have someone call it out in us.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  20:40

Yes.

Jonathan Puddle  20:40

Things like that. Not technically necessary. But sometimes helpful.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  20:46

Yeah. You know, what, like, some of my biggest moments of growth have been my husband speaking life over me. Because to have someone who knows you and loves you, and is like, hey, like, you can do this. There's power in that.

Jonathan Puddle  20:59

Yeah.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  21:00

Right. Okay, so, pivoting a little bit, one of the biggest parts of the book that just stood out to me, I mean, there's so much and I said this to Jonathan, where it just felt like he was speaking to so much of what I that the conversations I'm having in real time,

Jonathan Puddle  21:15

I was thinking about you while reading the book, this is like Tryphena's whole life.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  21:22

Taking that as a compliment. But, um, when he was talking about Jesus as a young boy, and how he, you know, like Jesus was without sin. And Jonathan Martin talks about like, like, you know, he believes that Jesus was without sin. So when he separated from his parents, and he was in the temple asking questions, it wasn't that he was being defiant. And you can almost like you could see everybody just feel like, oh, this cute young boy who's asking all of these questions. And then Jesus chose in his agency, to go back and to sacrifice and to be with his parents for that season for to take, you know, those two decades, which itself, even as a stay at home parent just really spoke to me about okay, like, there is space for my agency of sacrifice, right now, while I care for others. But then moving, and then, but then when he went out into the world, it's like, oh, you were cute boy, until you started to show your own power and advocate for people and you started to call out our power in the question. And sometimes, so that, like, that's when Jesus needed to move away from home.

Jonathan Puddle  22:30

Yeah.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  22:32

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  22:33

So real.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  22:35

And that just really spoke to I think, where I met to, in my own existence of like, okay, there are just, you know, what, let me just be honest, like, even in terms of parenting, I'm like, oh, I want to say that I want to raise kids who are robust and who advocate for themselves, and who exemplify their own agency and all this stuff. And then really, when the rubber hits the road, I'm like nope, I don't like you calling out my shit. I don't really like you advocating for yourself to the level that you're advocating for you this and I'm just there was just so much profoundness in that moment, one into my own parenting but to and to how I live my life and what spaces are safe for my body to return to. And to not return to. As you still show up as like, I don't know, does anyone else have this experience where they go to their parents house, and I'm not saying this, but my parents, but I go to my parents house, and immediately I'm a 15 year old teenager, immediately. I'm like, oh, this is like, I'm just like, the attitude comes in. I'm bored. I'm not parenting my own kids anymore. And I'm like, oh, I and I need to be careful about the spaces I returned to. Where I am not congruent with the person that I'm right now is a grown woman.

Jonathan Puddle  23:55

That's so good. That congruency is it right?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  23:58

Yes!

Jonathan Puddle  23:59

I remember going to a conference at Easter that, you know, I used to help run and hadn't been involved in in years. And I remember walking through the doors and basically asking myself, Jonathan, will you be congruent? Will you be intent? Will you be Integris? What are you, what do you want? What do you want out of this? What do you want to carry out of this? And what do you how do you want to be here? And I think I was just coming back to you know, this Eugene Peterson thing of, I just want to be myself. I just want to just want to be myself and saying, okay, well, you can I give you permission. And if it's confusing or painful, it's okay. I'll be here with you. You're not alone. And I and I think that invitation within that, then, to sit in discernment. And that as the voice has come around you and begin to interact with you, as you are the 15 year old. And there's that poll, because we all desire. I think, as adults, we are so wired to successfully communicate that we will slip into weird behavior, because we know how to communicate in that way. Does that make sense? Like, put, here's another example. In Finland, I didn't learn the language, because I needed to communicate, and everybody spoke English. And so for me to learn Finnish, would be to downgrade our ability to communicate in the here. And now, a child does not have that problem, because a child does not yet have the overriding necessity to communicate, at least cognitively and linguistically. So children pick up language because they're not trying to communicate, whereas an adult is trying to communicate. And so language is difficult. And so you end up not learning new things, because you default to the things that you already have. I think that's part of what happens in when we go back to old spaces. On the one hand, we have our own programming. Yeah. And we have our own memories. We have our own ways of taking up space historically, when we were in those spaces. But conversely, we have our way of responding to the expectations that other people have. Right, that guy who always was smarmy comes in to give you that weird hug. And you just go with it, because you always did. And even though now, you're like, Yeah, I respect my body. I have my boundaries, and you walk away from they go, oh, what did I just do? Why did I? Because it's not just you, but it's you reacting? I think we end up with such a desire to communicate and not be awkward and fun and just appear like functional adults, that we actually end up incongruous.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  27:08

Yeah. Versus kids give zero shits, like how many times?

Jonathan Puddle  27:13

They don't care.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  27:13

Yeah, how many times? Do you ask a kid a question? And like, I asked my kid a question. They literally turn around and walk away. Like, it's like, I don't want to answer your question. So I'm leaving. Like, I don't want to say hi to that person. So I'm leaving. And I'm like, oh.

Jonathan Puddle  27:25

Right. Now wow, of course, our previous generations would say, give your grandmother a hug, you know, give that person a hug, whatever, I'm just kind of enforce it. Anyway, I think all of that is just coming back to this thing of discernment, right? Like, somebody walks over to me as like, hey, you know, a figure of authority from my previous life comes over to me and has ways of interacting with me. And I can remember all of my historical ways of interacting. And I have competing desires in my head. One is to not be awkward, and one is to communicate, and I can, I can tell that that person has an expectation of how the next four and a half seconds are going to go. And I know how to play that, that game. But I can also and I can discern, okay, would this be a compromise of any part of my personhood? Or the place that I inhabit today? Is this safe from my body or not? And I get to choose because I have agency, I can  choose to do the old school handshake or that whatever I used to do with this person, or I can just be like, hands on hips, hey, how's it gone? And I have the choice to the freedom to make the choice. And, and I think that like that thing of coming back to this discernment over and over and over again, like that agency of discerning,

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  28:49

Yes. We were talking about this yesterday, as well of like, how much I am realizing from so much of my discernment is actually trying something, right. It's like, oh, I'm gonna hug you and see how it feels right now. And maybe next time, I'm going to realize that was not comfortable for me. And that's the boundary can like anywhere in the past, I would have been like, oh my gosh, I hugged this person. And like, gave into like, what they wanted. And I didn't like my body didn't feel safe. And I'd be like, berating myself about it. And if like, oh, like Tryphena, you gave up your power or whatever it is, right? And it's like, no, actually, I tried something. And that's okay. And I'm honoring how my body feels moving forward. And sometimes in some situations, I will just be fully honest, it feels safer. To not pay this is, this is going to come up problematic and just umbrella of grace. It feels safer to not fight it. And I'm not saying that. Like I'm not talking about rape. I'm just saying like so even today. I was in an uncomfortable situation. I'm like, You know what, it feels safer right now in my body, knowing the emotional capacity I have to not to call you on what you just said and to just move on. Because I don't have the emotional capacity. And then I needed to discern like, okay, so is there a part of that fear? Or is there just like me, I'm honoring my body and be like, I'm not wasting my anger and my conversation and my piece on you in this situation? Yeah, I think you're like,

Jonathan Puddle  30:18

I mean, I don't want to you just tell me if I'm speaking out side of my zone. But men also get raped. And

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  30:26

Yes, 100%.

Jonathan Puddle  30:28

And, you know, you said, I'm not talking about rape. But even when you but even talking about sexual assault, there is a space, sometimes we're a body will say, "If I fight, I might die. If I don't fight I might survive. And that does not mean I'm giving consent."

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  30:46

No. Yes!

Jonathan Puddle  30:48

But I would like to survive rather than die. And I think that that does happen in our, in our families and our spiritual communities, in our various kinds of relationships. I don't have the capacity to fight to, to identify this micro aggression to, to whatever, but I would like to survive. And it might even be that I would like this relationship to survive in some way. And maybe that's because like, 20 years from now, I want my children to have a relationship with their grandparents or whatever the case may be, you know, or the uncle or whoever, just to whatever. Sometimes, you know, it's like, okay, well, I'm gonna pick my battles, not because I'm laying down and dying, but because I'm specifically not dying.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  31:40

And like emotional about, yeah, it 100%. I was, I was having this conversation this week of just the power of our bodies, because someone was lamenting their lack of emotional ability to feel or the way they felt they were struggling to feel it. I was like, do you realize how incredible and courageous it is that your body has protected you, where you have walked through trauma after trauma, and it had to shut down, it had to shut down your ability to feel for you to survive, right? And so often, so many of the reactions that we have, are these incredible survival techniques, even our panic attacks, right? It's like, our body is calling things to our attention. And we just yeah, I struggle with this. I struggle with this with anger. This conversation has gone over all over the place, but I'm gonna keep going. So I struggled with anger, especially when it comes to racial injustice and in my own life, right, like, so part of my story is I'm raising two beautiful mixed race kids. And sometimes that's really, people are really garbage about that. And I have had to struggle with what it like looks like to be congruent and to show up in spaces and be like, This is who I am. And honestly, today, I'm angry. But for me to tell people that I'm angry, unfortunately, sometimes it means I need to explain why I'm angry. And so it's like, what's that line of like, I'm here to be angry and be myself, but not explain my anger. But also my anger is not performative. I'm not here. So you know, your whiteness is like, oh, I like supported somebody of color today and felt really upset like I yeah, I don't know, I was going with that. Jonathan. I just it's messy, and it's nuanced. And each and every situation can look different. And feel different. And there's no shame in how we handle each situation.

Jonathan Puddle  33:53

Yeah, that's so real. And like, can we get and, and can I give you the dignity to let you figure that out? Right, like, in our friendship. Hopefully, you feel the safety, to process to share, to choose to not share to sometimes be like, hey, I'm gonna give you the Coles Notes version and we're not going to talk about it because that's not what we're here to do today. And there may be other times where we do and all that's okay. And and I'm not forcing you into it and anything and I mean, I came in my head this is all the same as the two guys walking away from Jerusalem Harburg. Going okay, everything that we thought we knew about how this thing worked, was already dangerous and was already risky. We already thought we were being brave. And now we're just screwed. Hopeless broken. Like, I feel like that's the insult to injury right like face If faith is, is injury, and then just come to this insult of faith doesn't change anything like, like, okay, it does. But there's this quote that I wrote in my notes of the big F U Jonathan Martin beside it, "Faith does not offer a qualitatively different experience of being human."

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  35:17

No. So good,

Jonathan Puddle  35:18

I don't like, get out. I don't want to talk to you anymore. You're not, my friend,

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  35:24

That was the whole point!

Jonathan Puddle  35:27

Faith does not offer a qualitatively different experience of being human. And he goes on to say that it does offer a different lens of engaging with human life. Basically, that we get permission, we learn we, we gain capacity. To see that I love the way he put it that that the story we're telling about our life is not the story God is telling about our life. That was just so rich.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  36:05

It's profound.

Jonathan Puddle  36:06

Profound, like I need that I can already feel like that's something that I'm going to come back to again and again, Jonathan, what story you're telling about your life right now? Is it possible that God is telling a different story?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  36:23

So often, we tell our story from a position of weakness.

Jonathan Puddle  36:27

We do, right? Even. And I know this as a Two who who goes to the unhealthy eight, when I'm trying to exercise my power, I immediately look like a toxic bossy eight. And so even in trying to access power, I do it in powerless ways and blame everybody else. And, and it's like, okay, I actually just have power. That's just here. I don't have to, I don't have to even like claim it or reach out and take it though. Those may all be poetic language that that we can use. I actually just get to choose, right here. And now. What's next? I could pour myself another glass of this fine Bourbon, and asked my wife would you mind picking up the children's or I could even go as far as calling the school and tell them something has come up. And I cannot pick up the children, they will need to walk. And they will walk one kilometer and they will be fine, is a very silly example. But I feel like even again, just being on holiday, and realizing because, because partly, we were in places with people whom we never had money before. Because we were students and we were broke as heck. And it was so weird to be in Helsinki and other cities. With a bit of money, we're not loaded by any means. But we could choose to go to that restaurant if we wanted we could choose to do this thing. And actually still working in my own self and my own kind of poverty lack mentality being like Jonathan, would you like that? You are allowed to have it you are allowed to choose it. There is nothing wrong with choosing it and and that was I think our first day in Helsinki I what we were walking through this market. And I walked by these fried fish that I put on my Instagram because they're very finish and they're very weird. And basically they're like tiny little kind of like sardines, things that are fried and in a big pan with salt and you eat the entire fish like a french fry. And you'll get a you'll get a plate that's half fried fish and half French fries, and you're eating the entire fish tail eyeballs and the whole thing and it's just a salty, crunchy, delicious treat.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  39:00

Amazing.

Jonathan Puddle  39:02

15 years ago, my palate was a lot more limited. I was poor. I did not always love trying new things. And because I was poor, I was always so worked up about if I don't enjoy it, it will be a waste of money and I will feel that I have made a bad choice, which makes me feel like I'm not a valuable wise smart human being. So it comes back to am I being devalued?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  39:27

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  39:28

And I walked past, I got about two or three stalls down, and then I said to my actually I would like to go back and buy some muikkuja. Okay. And I was like, she just said, "Okay." So weird.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  39:48

Meanwhile, Maija's like, okay, whatever.

Jonathan Puddle  39:50

You can do what you want. You're on a holiday man. And I'm like, oh, the universe is coming into alignment with my plans. All of my examples are about food and drink. Because again, this is where I'm living in this space right now, where I'm like everything else is meaningless. Just find your people and walk down the road and do the thing that's in front of you and feast.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  40:16

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  40:19

I have my my daily prayer book, my Celtic daily prayer book. For today, one of the readings was this piece from George MacDonald, which I almost shared with Jonathan Martin. But again, I just, it's in the same vein.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  40:37

Sorry, say that again, piece from who?

Jonathan Puddle  40:38

George MacDonald, the Scottish poet and children's author and theologian and one of the major influences on C.S. Lewis, "What God may hereafter require review, you must not give yourself the least trouble about everything he gives you to do. You must do as well as ever you can. That is the best possible preparation for what he might want you to do next. If people would, but do what they have to do. They would always find themselves ready for what came next."

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  41:11

Oh, my goodness. That is beautiful.

Jonathan Puddle  41:17

So like, so walk out of the Holy City. Or stay. It's okay.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  41:28

I think that's the beautiful part. It's okay. I remember when my husband and I were at like a crossroads five years ago, we just kept getting prophetic words of like, there are no wrong decisions. And I remember being like, that is not true that it goes against everything. I've been taught

Jonathan Puddle  41:43

get behind me, Satan.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  41:45

Yes, exactly. It's like, well, I'm good, I can't step out of the will of God, I can't step out of like what God has written in his book of life about me and anyways. I just... there, as I've walked that out, and literally, we came to the place where like, no, we just actually have to make the best decision for our family in this moment. And the decision to make gives us the most amount of peace, which I do believe is Holy Spirit. I've realized I'm like, we have a redemptive God. If not, if God is pursuing us with love at all times, and will redeem and liberate all of it so why not like why not do it? Like why do we put God in a box to be like no, unless we make one decision or do one thing in the right way? Or sacrifice everything that we have done? Or everything that we can then only when we encounter God I love and Jonathan Martin talked about, I don't often find God in the climbing but in the falling it's not in the striving to find the divine that we find the divine. It's an actually just falling into that place of love. And just belonging that it's like, oh, okay. You're here too. And I can just be.

Jonathan Puddle  43:04

Seriously. There's a lyric from John Mark McMillan coming to come into mind. "Have I tried to scale your walls in vain? Where are you here beside me this whole way?"

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  43:15

Yeah. Good. So good.

Jonathan Puddle  43:20

Yes. All right, friends. Thanks for being here.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  43:28

I feel like we ended up at this point where it's like okay, now I just need to sit with this. I can't actually talk about it anymore. So yeah, thanks.