#137: Creating suicide-safe churches (Steve Austin tribute)

Two years ago, my friend Steve Austin, an author, mental health advocate and former pastor, died by suicide. Ever since then, I’ve intended to dedicate an episode to his memory and his work, and this is that episode. Including a powerful interview with Lindsey Austin, Steve’s wife, along with a selection of readings from Steve’s book, Hiding In The Pews: Shining Light on Mental Illness in the Church, this is a vulnerable and sacred discussion that filled me with more hope and joy than I expected. I’ve lost count of the number of people who have reached out to me this Spring while hitting really dark patches in their mental health. Pastors, it is our job to help, but not always in the ways we expect or assume. This episode is for all of us, so we can learn to create suicide-safe spaces.

Order Hiding In The Pews: Shining Light on Mental Illness in the Church by Steve Austin.
Learn more about Steve’s legacy at iamsteveaustin.com

Grab my latest book, Mornings with God: Daily Bible Devotional for Men (good for women too)
Check out my trauma-informed 30-day devotional, You Are Enough: Learning to Love Yourself the Way God Loves You.

Support the show and my other work, at jonathanpuddle.com/support
Find every book or resource I’ve talked about recently on my Amazon storefront, in Canada, the United States or the United Kingdom.

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Transcription

Jonathan Puddle  00:09

Hey friends, welcome back to The Puddcast with me, Jonathan Puddle. This is episode 137. And this episode is unique. Two years ago, my friend Steve Austin, died by suicide. And we were meant to record an interview later that summer, Steve and I, about his really helpful book called Hiding In The Pews: Shining Light on Mental Illness in Church. Steve had survived a suicide attempt a number of years ago, and wrote this book to help pastors and leaders understand their own mental health and the mental health of the congregants and how, really how to build suicide-safe spaces. Tragically, Steve and I couldn't record that, because for one dark moment, his struggles overwhelmed his ability to cope and stay alive. So this episode is going to feature a number of readings from Steve's book, as well as some selections of an interview that I recorded with Steve's wife, Lindsey. And I gotta say, Lindsey is an amazing woman, full of hope and life and honesty. Lindsay has been the children's ministry director at their church, and she's a teacher. Teaches preschool and the family is actually moving shortly. So they've got lots of transition, lots of things that they've been working out, obviously, through the last few years, and you're gonna hear a bunch of her journey and their journey here today. If you have been affected by suicide in any way, or if you have been contemplating suicide, I hope that this discussion is a source of life, and peace and grace for you.

Jonathan Puddle  02:02

I want you to know, that this time of year, spring in the northern hemisphere, is widely understood to be the most difficult time for mental health. This has been known for 50 or 60 years, something to do with springtime, is particularly hard for folks who struggle with their mental health and have a history, especially of suicidal ideation. And I just personally know countless people who've been reaching out to me and others in the last month. And it's just been hard. It's just been dark and heavy, and difficult. And so I just want first of all you to know if you're struggling right now, there is no shame in that life sometimes can be really hard. Survival sometimes can be really hard. So this is a gentle conversation around a sometimes difficult topic. But there does not need to be any shame in this conversation. If we're going to build suicide safe families, suicide safe churches, suicide safe society, we need to get used to saying the word and we need to get used to reaching out to people and saying, are you okay? And going a step further and saying, Do you have plans to harm yourself? I know that that is going to sound taboo to a lot of folks, it used to sound taboo to me. But we can help serve our brothers and sisters who struggle by taking some of the burden off their plate. And by using this language and reaching out ourselves. So Tryphena will not be joining us this episode. One of the things I really loved about Steve was his sense of humor and his ability to connect. He was such a connector and networker building relationships with petite between people. And he launched a book study group and the first book that that they did was my book, You Are Enough: Learning to Love Yourself the Way God Loves You. And it was the first time to my knowledge that anyone had done a kind of a book study on it. And it really blessed me immensely. And he actually gave me some study material for that he had written for the book, which I still intend to do something with. But what was really a very lasting impact for me was they Steve invited me to speak to this group of I don't know, maybe four or five folks, I think predominantly or all women who weren't doing this book study. And what I had no idea about was that two of these women live 15 minutes away from me. We didn't know each other and I don't think they knew of me either, and we've become friends since then. And we've maintained in contact and like that kind of thing. On the one hand is like, you know, representative of the power of the internet. But more than just this nebulous thing like that. That was the power of Steve Austin, finding people, giving people hope and connection through his own vulnerability through his own humor through his unwillingness to talk about taboo and difficult subjects. And then connecting folks with others. So I remain indebted, and I've built lifelong friends. I say lifelong, I hope so I've built you know, certainly two year long friendships with folks that Steve connected me to. So I'm, I'm, I'm indebted to Steve, for that. Lindsey, it's really delightful to connect with you here on video finally, at long last. And I wonder if you would tell me and tell us a bit about how you and Steve met, and got to know one another.

Lindsey Austin  06:02

Yeah, I was fresh out of high school and didn't want to go to college because I did not know what I wanted to be when I grew up. But I had a heart for serving others. And so I explored a ministry school here in Alabama. I was raised in Florida. So I moved 600 miles away to a little town outside of Birmingham, that had a ministry school, it was called masters commission. And it was based in the Assembly of God church. And so it was very charismatic, Pentecostal. But during the week, we did practical things like nursing home visits, very pastoral care kind of stuff. On the weekends, we did outreach ministries in the inner city, neighborhoods in Birmingham. There were three years of the program. So the first year, I come in, and I have this guy open a door for me. And that was not a very Florida thing to do. And I was like who does he think he's trying to impress, I can open the door for myself, I'm very headstrong girl. He continued to pick at me, play games, you know, just the typical flirty, 18 year old and kind of wore me down and kind of went over my heart during that first year of ministry school. And we would do like traveling ministry where we'd go to different states, one of them being St. Louis, and we helped with the Joyce Meyers Dream Center there. And funny story, we did this puppet show. And his puppet would say, like slightly inappropriate things to my puppet during this, like street fair children's ministry, and that was probably one of the first moments I was like, the humor just just knocked me down. I guess it just, it just got me. So we were actually not supposed to date during our first year, it was very, you cannot spend more than five minutes alone with the opposite sex, it were very strict, very strict program, a lot of rules. And so they would like after that they would put us on different teams on purpose. Because there was an obvious attraction that we had to fight so. And then after that we dated for a little bit, and it just didn't work out. A couple years later, we came back together. And I was like, Well, I'm totally different person than I was. Who are you? And we kind of reconnected in our new selves. We were still still in church, that we were kind of finding our own values and beliefs by that point. So that was in about 2006. Yeah. That's when we started. Really dating is about 2006. That's so beautiful.

Jonathan Puddle  08:51

That's so beautiful. And that's so humorous to me on so many levels, like, I grew up in ministry, school kind of contexts. I totally get that. Oh, 65 fresh new 18 year olds every six months. Come on now. And, and of course, the sanctified flirting that can take place through puppets and by journalizing.

Lindsey Austin  09:15

Lindsey Austin  09:15

Isn't that hilarious.

Jonathan Puddle  09:16

Guess it's not just me. And I hate puppets as a children's pastor. I swore to never use puppets. Because I grew up with puppets. I found that terrifying.

Lindsey Austin  09:30

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  09:31

Steve, Steve became got into pastoral work at some point. How did that

Lindsey Austin  09:37

We were. We married in 2007. And around, we like helped out with just lay ministry. And then there was a small church in our area, said that you would be great as a lead person, and that was in about 2010. And we had a youth ministry. It was another it was a nondenominational church. So very charismatic, Pentecostal, that kind of atmosphere. But we were just trying to do practical things with the kids to show them that faith isn't all flashy Sunday morning. And eventually it didn't work out because we were kind of going against the grain of the church. We were, we were not what they were looking for. So we left that position. And about two years later, yeah, probably about two years later, Steve, his main occupation was sign language interpreter, and he was interpreting. Yeah, he was interpreting at a high school. And the their youth group didn't have a youth pastor. So they kind of the kids kind of like voted him in. And it was at a Baptist church. We just don't fit anywhere. We learned these things, but their youth group just kind of exploded under leadership and everybody's happy.

Jonathan Puddle  10:59

Wow.

Lindsey Austin  11:01

But all the while Steve was hiding the silent battle, mental health that was not taken care of properly, and childhood trauma that was compounding under their surface. So you can very much be exuberant, and fighting those battles at the same time. I don't think they're exclusive. You know, a person that has depression doesn't necessarily sleep all day and milk around. It just can look different for everyone there, there can be a lot of masking going on.

Jonathan Puddle  11:34

One of Steve's invitations in this book hiding in the pews, is for pastors and leaders to admit that they are not experts on everything and to begin reaching out for help in areas that they're not strong. And in particular, helping congregants with mental health abuse trauma should not be and cannot be a pastor's primary responsibility. There are professionals that deal with this kind of work. And one of the examples that he uses is, you know, if somebody in your church has broken their leg, or you know, has cancer, you may well ask the church to pray for them. And there's biblical precedent for that, and I've certainly believe in miracles, but you're also at the very least gonna go to the hospital and talk to your GP and find the right professionals for someone's biological physiological recovery. The same needs to be true for mental health. And so Steve lays out a roadmap in this book for how pastors can make their communities more suicide safe. I'm going to read from the first chapter. As you read this chapter, perhaps you've wondered, how safe is my church? For most of us, we want to believe our church already is a safe place for people facing the truth that it might not be as uncomfortable. But when grappling with serious issues like trauma, abuse, mental illness, shame, doubt and fear, those of us in leadership owe it to our congregants to face what's real, even if it means finding out that our church has a long way to go. To establish safety for suffering people, we need to start with an honest reckoning. That's why as we begin our journey together in this book, my first challenge to you is to print the assessment at the end of this chapter, and give it to your congregation and your staff, keeping individual responses anonymous. Once the surveys have been distributed, filled out and returned, make a point of reviewing and discussing the results with ministry staff and lay leaders. There's no scoring system here, responses are just something to consider. If the results reveal that your church isn't very safe, maybe one of the first steps toward changing that might be a sermon of confession, admitting the lack of safety in your congregation, and sharing your commitment to changing that. For now, the work needs to start close in with humble self awareness and realistic acknowledgement of a church's culture. We must learn first and put into practice what we're learning, instead of positioning ourselves as experts to our congregation. I think this posture is a Jonathan again, I think this posture is so important. And I think there's such a culture, assuming that pastors are experts in all things. And many pastors feel this pressure to be an expert in things that they that they don't understand and don't necessarily even desire to be considered experts in. This is not all a pastor's fault far, far from it. Don't hear me blaming leadership there. But if you aren't leadership, there's power and honesty, there's power and vulnerability, there's power and saying, I don't know how to solve these problems. But I know some of you are struggling. When we assert ourselves as leaders as authorities on things that we're not struggling with. It's frankly absurd, because if we have folks in our congregations that are struggling with their mental health, most of them have probably tried various solutions over the years. They may be experts in medication options and emotional regulation and all manner of ways that we seek to move ourselves towards equilibrium. Yeah, it's possible that they have no idea what they're doing in their hot mess. But it's also possible that they've been struggling this way for 10, 20, 30 years, and are experts, they would be far more from authority than most of us are. And so I really think that's so important. The way Steve said that that posture of learning that our first, the first step in creating a suicide safe space, is acknowledging that the work has got to start really close with what we know and what we don't know. And how we can improve on that. Did Steve mask with humor?

Lindsey Austin  15:46

Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, it could be something very serious, like childhood sexual abuse, and he would even kind of make a play on words or that just like it wasn't a big deal.

Jonathan Puddle  16:03

When did you start to maybe wonder some that he's struggling here? Or was that like, common knowledge between you both?

Lindsey Austin  16:12

It was somewhat common knowledge. But I didn't, I didn't understand the extent of it, because he still hadn't opened up about childhood issues. I didn't know there was such a deep well there. And I was also struggling. Around that time, when we were at the Baptist Church, and we had a booming youth group, I was recovering from a pretty severe stint of postpartum depression. So I had my own issues that I was trying to work through. So I may not have necessarily been as supportive. I was always supportive, but more probing investigating to see what was lying under the surface there.

Jonathan Puddle  16:57

Yeah. Yeah, of course. Well, you're in survival mode yourself. Yeah. Yeah. That's something that I've been thinking a lot about too. lately. This? How are expectations placed upon Christian marriage, especially ministry marriage. Obviously, there's a lot of baggage there for women married, you know, in the kind of expectations of a pastor or male and a pastor's wife role and a lot of historical, like, issues there. But even kind of like this expectation, I think that is placed. I think this happens mutually. But I think it's more commonly noticeable on women that are expected to solve their men's problems to heal their husbands. Is that something you've experienced?

Lindsey Austin  17:50

Yeah. Especially after his death, it was like, there was a lot of you did this. It was I could have fixed it somehow. So yeah, I can see that pressure of, of being their therapist, which is not your job.

Jonathan Puddle  18:09

Another chapter that really stood out to me early on in this book, is the importance of becoming trauma informed. Now, those of you who've been listening to the show for a while, obviously, we'll know this is huge for me. And Aundi Kolber, obviously, was just on the show very recently, if you're if you're hanging around, you'll know that I guess why did I even say it, you know it, but trauma becoming trauma informed has been the one of the biggest changes in my life ever in my entire life. But certainly, it's impacted the way I administer the way I live the way I moved towards myself and grace and compassion, the way I parent, certainly the way that I write, and many other things. This chapter is brilliant. Steve interviewed a woman named Julie for the book. And Julie's advice to church leaders is as follows. Learn to be safe with people's feelings, and not to tell them how to feel, become trauma informed, and become aware of the expert help available to refer people in need. Pastors are often the first people contacted in crisis. They're like paramedics, they need tools to triage people and get them to the right help. End of quote. Steve continues, so how does the church become a place of psychological safety? The process starts from the top down. In his comforting work the wounded healer, Henry now and gives advice to church leaders, for the Minister is called to recognize the sufferings of his time in his own heart and make that recognition the starting point of his service, whether he tries to enter into a dislocated world relate to a convulsive generation or speak to a dying man. His service will not be perceived as authentic unless it comes from a heart wounded by the suffering about which he speaks and quote. Now, Steve continues now and is absolutely right in his assertion that vulnerability flows down hill. Though I believe we can all do our part to cultivate a sense of psychological safety within our communities of faith. The truth is that leaders bear the greatest responsibility to establish that safety. As such, it matters incalculably that pastors and other people in ministry become trauma informed and familiar with the realities of abuse. When leaders ignore the prevalence of sexual violence, they make safety and justice impossible, rendering our churches dangerous for survivors, and comfortable for abusers, messages minimizing abuse, do an unspeakable disservice to survivors of sexual trauma. And often they sink in deep. Steve offers the practical suggestion that once you have sent out the survey to your church and your staff, and receive the results back and share them with the rest of your church's leadership team, you'll have a preliminary picture of how safe your congregation feels, how safe they feel, to show up as the people they actually are. Chances are, if you and your church like the rest of us, there's going to be a distinct gap between how safe your church is and how safe you'd like it to feel. Steve's encouragement at this point is that we begin to do our own work of research and learning. And hopefully, ultimately, if we're not already, we go to therapy ourselves. So we can begin to understand what's happening inside of our own lives, get more connected with our emotions, and our own story. So we can support those in our spiritual care, as they begin to connect with their own story, and hopefully find a safe place to share their story. Steve offers links and recommendations to many practical resources in this book that I'm not going to share them all because he just you just need to get Steve's book here. It's It's so good. Take us back to his earlier suicide attempt that he survived.

Lindsey Austin  21:54

Yeah, so that was, like I said, when we were at the Baptist Church, and around 2012, he was accused of misconduct with youth, which, when you say those things, people obviously go to sexual assault. And I think that with the combination of like I said, the childhood trauma and everything, the the pressure just got to him. And he was out of town when he attempted I think it was a way to be away from us. Maybe not impact us as much. But it certainly did. It was the day before our son's first birthday.

Jonathan Puddle  22:40

My father attempted when I was seven. And I didn't know anything about it until quite a bit later.

Lindsey Austin  22:50

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  22:52

In fact, I only learned in the last couple of years about another attempt in my, in my later teens, I'm highly empathic. And man learning about those was actually such a gift. Because those, like I was a hot mess, is seven, eight years old. I remember the feeling this immense turmoil and pain and having no one in my family talking about it.

Lindsey Austin  23:18

Right.

Jonathan Puddle  23:19

All I've got is I'm just defective. Something's just wrong with me. I just glitched out internally, and I'm just miserable for no reason. Right? And so, so then is it a shame and so on? How did how did you guys come back from that.

Lindsey Austin  23:32

Um, so the church that we had worked for, let him go just before the attempt in his full time job. So part time and full time job lost those. And I think that was the crushing blow of I don't belong here anymore. I have no value. But our the church was gracious enough to gift us counseling with a Christian but was also a licensed psychiatrist, and helped us really work through those early days, weeks months of recovery. I'd say initially, that's how we got through. And you were talking about kind of the need to talk about it. And Steve had a need to talk about it. It was very uncomfortable for some people, because a lot of especially southern culture, church culture is God is good all the time.

Jonathan Puddle  24:28

All the time. God is good.

Lindsey Austin  24:29

Yes. And a lot of times, that means we don't talk about the hard things. We talk about our less blessings, we focus on the good that we have, and we move on. But that's not that's not the way it worked for Steve. He wanted to be vocal and sort through it that way.

Jonathan Puddle  24:50

Steve also offers practical advice for pastors who themselves are hurting. He writes, advice from a pastor with a broken brain If you're a pastor drowning under the weight of mental health concerns, particularly suicidal ideation, here's my advice. Begin today to practice receiving this universal grace in tangible ways. Be strong enough to be weak, and be courageous enough to ask for help. How? Practice saying, I'm not okay right now, and sit with it. For some saying those words for the first time will likely be uncomfortable, though for others it might be a relief. But honestly like that is the only way forward. When a pastor has the courage to share what life is like at the intersection of faith and mental illness. That courage opens the door for other members of the congregation to say these things out loud themselves in the light of the honest community that will unfold from this bravery has the power to overcome much of our darkness. Get out from behind the pulpit, then and rest for as long as it takes. Even Jesus felt overwhelmed by the crowds and drew away to a quiet place to rest and recover. Keep the Sabbath. Unfortunately, too many pastors go for weeks without taking a day off, use their vacation days only once or twice a year. And rarely, if ever, take time for personal spiritual renewal. Consider blocking off a day each week from your phone and email, taking a quarterly three day retreat from both office and home. Or even taking three months away from the pressure of ministry to get grounded, these practices can save your life. If you're tempted to reflexively push back without at least considering the idea. I'd like to emphasize that congregational health begins with individual health. And this includes pastors. I've met, I've met so many people through the work that Steve was doing.

Jonathan Puddle  26:39

Yeah. Me too.

Jonathan Puddle  26:40

Including folks local here.

Jonathan Puddle  26:43

Yeah, isn't that interesting.

Jonathan Puddle  26:44

Yeah, I'd forgotten that until just the other day, because because now I just hang out with these people. And I'd forgotten how we met. But in particular, two of them live 20 minutes drive from me. And so that was just just like, what hold on. I didn't even know about their church, I didn't know it existed. And, and again, they've they've become friends and meaningful connection with me. And I have Steve and Steve's commitment to talking honestly, that make for that.

Lindsey Austin  27:14

And for me, it helps you kind of shatter the shame that was connected to suicide attempt being vocal about it.

Jonathan Puddle  27:22

How did your understanding of suicide change and mental illness change? Because certainly, I think most of us probably grew up with this kind of rhetoric of of it being a selfish decision that someone makes as if they had all their faculties online.

Lindsey Austin  27:41

Yeah, I could see the the desperation there. And it gives I think it gives the person like, tunnel vision of this is the only option for me. In this moment. I think it's very, for a lot of people. It's really very split second, you know, so I think that's how it changed for me. Going through that with him.

Jonathan Puddle  28:06

Definitely, with the, you know, a few high profile pastors dying to suicide in the last few years. It feels like the awareness is at least moving in the right direction. I'm sure there's, I mean, I know there are pockets that I bump into. I'm like, okay, based on the language you're using, I'm guessing that maybe there's not been a lot of new learning here.

Lindsey Austin  28:34

Right.

Jonathan Puddle  28:35

Do you have any thoughts? I wonder on some of the really important things for for pastors or lay leaders and community leaders, to keep before them in the folks that they're dealing with?

Lindsey Austin  28:46

Yeah,I think that especially people in a caring role, like ministry, or even teaching or physicians, you're giving a lot of yourself. And if you're not checking in with your innermost self, I think, for me, the most important way to do that is through seeing a therapist opening up about deep needs that within yourself. Especially in church circles, you can be encouraged maybe to see a christian counselor, which I am not. I'm not saying that's bad, but sometimes an outside perspective can be helpful. It's been helpful for me. I think there needs to be a louder voice for caring roles, especially in ministry to regularly see a therapist.

Jonathan Puddle  29:48

Yeah, yeah, agreed. I might. My background is also charismatic and the particular charismatic stream that I was a part of, was big on inner healing. And that, that did serve me really well for a time. And I, and I have seen people experience real, real breakthrough and real transformation in their lives. But interestingly, my own therapist was a pastor. And he became he quit pastoring and became a psychotherapist, after visiting the Toronto Blessing and watching some people walk away without experiencing anything from God. And he said, someone needs to go and care for those people. We don't know, whatever we can say about this. It doesn't work for everyone.

Lindsey Austin  30:39

Right.

Jonathan Puddle  30:40

And, and that was his motivation, which was just fascinating to me as someone who had been involved in that church movement for quite a long time. Obviously, Steve got to a point of stability, I guess. And he was certainly building the career and connecting with all of us. How was his health kind of at that point, let's say three, four years ago?

Lindsey Austin  31:02

Yeah, I think he got to the point where, and I think this happens a lot. When you get to a point in therapy, and they say, you've graduated, you have arrived?

Jonathan Puddle  31:12

Yes.

Lindsey Austin  31:14

But there were still, I think, especially from the attempt some, some stuff that was not uncovered. Some shame that was still lingering, that that nobody saw. I think that's what led to the destruction in the end is, I can't get past this. Everybody says I'm fine. But I'm not fine.

Jonathan Puddle  31:40

And then add to that pandemic,

Lindsey Austin  31:43

Yes. I think the pandemic affected us more than we realize that isolation, the loneliness, especially for somebody like Steve, who's an extrovert, not connecting the way you used to. And I mean, practically, there is a desperate desperation there too, because he went from working like 40, 50 hours a week to five hours a week. And I had been let go from my job too. So it was just a very difficult time for our family. We had a very close group of friends and we would literally pay each other's bills during the pandemic, whoever had money, we would cover each other's bills, it was just incredible. That's how we, we've survived.

Jonathan Puddle  32:21

In providing an overview of how to support your congregation, Steve lays out a number of practical steps which he's gone into in depth in the chapters in this book. The first step, he says, is to just listen. Sometimes our role is that simple. You don't have to have all the answers or be able to fix another's problems. It isn't even your job to help them turn their frown upside down by choosing joy, respect and acknowledge that their feelings and experiences are valid today, even if their negative thinking doesn't align with your theology. The next step, he writes is to check in regularly, countless people with mental illness isolate themselves, too ashamed to let family and friends know they're struggling. While you can't force anyone to accept your help, you can still make your presence and availability known. Reach out, invite them to talk and keep reminding them that you're in their corner. The next step is to support their overall health. Exercise, for example, gets our endorphins flowing, and can greatly help clear out the brain fog. Eating healthy, less sugar and caffeine can make us feel less jittery and easily excitable, good sleep is key to healthy cognitive function as is drinking enough water. Sure, these things may seem basic, but for the person in mental anguish, we often forget or ignore the basic needs. Steve writes, to keep inviting people to spend time with you and others don't push, but offer an open door again and again and again. And recognize that mental illness is no different from any other physical illness. Just like a cold or arthritis. No one has the ability to just get over their mental illness. Trust me, if we could, we would. Also remember that like other illnesses, mental illness can affect anyone, no one is immune. Even if someone seems to have a good life without much to be stressed over, they can still develop depression, anxiety, and so on. I love this next point. Keep your list of helping professionals readily available. If the person in your pew doesn't know where to start, you can offer them your church's list of doctors, therapists, mental health clinics and psychologists in the area that you developed earlier in this process. Working with a mental health professional, and taking prescribed medications can do wonders for someone with mental illness. He lays out the steps earlier for building your own mini database just a list really a spreadsheet of contacts in your area. So you can refer people to professional help as soon as they need it. And you don't have to go looking. Build up that list when you don't need it. Because when you do you'll have it to hand immediately, Steve continues, acknowledge that their healing isn't your responsibility. I know that's the hardest thing for a helping professional to hear, but it's true. Support them, love them and know that you cannot heal them. Take the cross or the cape off your back and just be a loving, encouraging friend and or pastor. He continues, don't forget to take care of yourself. supporting those with mental illness isn't always easy. In fact, it can be downright exhausting. It's important for you as a caregiver to make sure you're following the basics of good health listed above. For those of you that are currently pastoring someone or engaged with people that may be considering suicide or are really struggling right now. Steve offers six simple steps for suicide prevention. Number one, if someone tells you if they're suicidal thoughts, talk to them in private. Please don't draw people up to the front and call out the demons of suicide in them. Like some of us who grew up in charismatic or Pentecostal circles tragically have witnessed, that is Jonathan Puddle's paraphrase of what Steve wrote because I, I've been there as well. Close an office door, visit someone at home speak with them in private and a place they feel safe and unthreatened. Point number two, listen to their story. You don't have to have all the answers. You don't even need any answers. Just the simple act of showing up, wrapping your arms around a hurting person and asking them what's going on is a powerful tool toward getting them help and healing. It's not time for you to talk, it's time for you to listen. Point number three, tell them you care about them. Once you've met someone privately and listen to their story, tell them how much you love them. What's one way they've positively impacted your life? What's an inspiring memory you have with that person? briefly share it, or say something as simple as this. I love you. And I'm so sorry, you're hurting. I'm going to stay with you until we can get you some help. Point number four. Ask directly if they're thinking about suicide. Steve writes, This is the hardest question for most of us. But it's the question that matters. Be direct when you say are you thinking about suicide? Don't beat around the bush. And don't let one ounce of judgment show in your voice. Look them in the eyes, ask the question and patiently wait for their response. If they say yes, believe them. Take them seriously. And don't leave them until you get them help. Immediately. Start calmly removing any lethal means from the environment. Firearms knives, scissors or razors pills, toxic chemicals together, call a Suicide Prevention Lifeline. I'm going to include some numbers for that at the end of this episode. Most of them that you find in books, obviously are American. There's Canadian ones and other ones provide a few. Towards the end of this recording. You can say something like, Hi, I'm here with a friend who has told me he or she is thinking about suicide. We're at their home. I've removed any lethal means from the area can you help us. If you're able and feel safe to do so, you could escort someone to an emergency room or to the office of a trusted mental health professional. Point number five, encourage them to seek treatment or to contact their doctor or therapist. Connect them with a mental health professional immediately, and wait with them until they get help. Call a Suicide Prevention Lifeline or call emergency services 911. If you're with someone who is threatening self harm, no matter what else happens, you have to make that call and you have a responsibility to wait with the person until help arrives. Point number six, avoid debating the value of life, minimizing their problems or giving advice. This final step is one of the most important as Christians we so badly want to offer hope we might have memorized encouraging scripture, we might know how much our faith has helped us in times of despair. But this isn't the time to share a mini sermon. It isn't the time to debate theology, or to try to convince this person of your version of the truth. This isn't the time for advice. And it is never okay to minimize someone else's problems or pain. Just listen, love them and then get out of the way so that mental health professionals can do their job and save this precious life. I had been on the beach and had gotten home that night. And I got a text. I got an email. I was I was on a social media break because I usually need to take the summers off from my own kind of mental health and just pulling my sense of self worth away from social media.

Lindsey Austin  39:33

That's beautiful.

Jonathan Puddle  39:34

And because of that I wasn't I wasn't online. I was on Instagram or Twitter, which is where Steve and I interacted most heavily. And I got an email from David Henson saying Hey, Jonathan, I know you're offline. Steve's died. Can you walk us through if you would that you're just you're learning of it and discovery and.

Lindsey Austin  39:55

Steve was missing for a couple days and I knew that he was not in a good place. And we put in missing persons report. And I was very scared because it felt like a flashback to the attempt of not not being able to reach him. And no one was able to. So I was in my house, just tidying up some stuff, trying to hope for the best and police officer knocks on my door. And before he even says anything, I just know the truth and just crumble on the living room floor. While he shares the news with me. And at that time, my children were at an ice skating camp because it was summertime. And I was just really glad that it was just me in that moment. Kind of felt like design protection. So we let them finish out the day. And I was still a wreck, went over to my friend, Ashley. She's a licensed therapist, and she works for the children's hospitals. So she sees childhood trauma all day long. And I was just an absolute wreck. And I was like, I don't know how to tell them. She said, You can wait until you can find the words. And we waited until the next day. And shared with them in the living room of my in laws house. Let them know with a lot of people that they love surrounding them. And I think that was actually the hardest part for me is letting them know that their dad was not going to be here on earth anymore. The way I explained it was his brain was sick. And his heart was sick. And they knew his struggles with mental illness. We're open with them why we take medication. And that was probably the hardest day in my life.

Jonathan Puddle  41:58

I can only imagine. Thank you for sharing that. Much father, as I mentioned, he's dealt with clinical depression for decades. Still does. But but as I guess, age in life and embracing his own sexuality, he's he's at a really, I think in quite a good place of equilibrium today. I've paced depression and anxiety, typically more situational rather than than chronic. But reading Steve's book hiding in the pews. It struck me again, how much we invalidate mental illness. And just especially in contrast to visible physical illness. One of my kids is home from school today. Because she's sick with a cold, she has a sore throat turns out she's had a sore throat for three days, hasn't bothered to tell anybody. And now she's at home, but like, we don't really care. Yeah, sure. It's a pain in the butt when any of them are home. But you don't really question it.

Jonathan Puddle  43:17

Right.

Jonathan Puddle  43:17

You're ill you're sick if someone's got a broken leg, you know, I was struck in myself, how much I know this is real, and how much I experienced this in my own life. And the grace, I still sometimes fail to extend to myself. How let's let's say start with it with our family. If, if we are the inlaws if we are the extended family, what do we need to be doing? Or what's been what's been life giving for you? or what have you really needed?

Lindsey Austin  43:50

Some practical things? Somebody bring me dinner, somebody's saying, Have you made that doctor's appointment? Just very practical things. Somebody's holding you while you cry physically. Being there for you been really helpful. And if you feel that urge to text somebody and say how are you really do it that nudge should be your sign to reach out to them?

Jonathan Puddle  44:17

I was certainly one of those people who cared but it in the past it felt still like such a stigma attached towards like suicide. And it was Kayla Stoecklein, who was on the show who really, I think helps me to understand, you know, you need to ask people like, Do you have a plan? Have you been contemplating suicide and, and bring those words right out? Because I think yeah, we're we were so ashamed.

Lindsey Austin  44:45

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  44:45

We're always gonna say oh, yeah, things are fine.

Lindsey Austin  44:48

Well, for me after Steve staff, I was in intense therapy and I had no choice but to be very open with my therapist at that point was life saving time for me. You And I didn't even realize for myself that I was having suicide ideation until she mentioned that. And I knew there was probably PTSD from several things, but especially the attempt and the completion. And yeah, being diagnosed with PTSD, and I went through a certain kind of therapy called EMDR. It's very intense, you, you basically kind of relive the traumatizing situation in a safe environment. And there are different exercises you do with your therapist, walk through them, until you come to a place of neutrality. And I had to do a lot of that. I had to do about 10 minutes of that, but it's something I hadn't heard of until I needed it. I think a lot of people could benefit from something like that from I think Steve could have benefited from from some EMDR therapy,

Jonathan Puddle  45:55

Bravo for your courage, because I know, it's not easy. Yeah. What other aspects have been important in your, in your recovery for yourself?

Lindsey Austin  46:06

Yeah, I'd say therapy was number one. Also, getting a proper diagnosis for myself and being on the proper medication. There can be shame in that feeling weakness, because I rely on a substance to get me through the day. And it's stripped away, when there's just such a desperate need, you don't have the luxury of being stingy, you know, you don't have the luxury of, of saving face there. You have to do what is best for yourself. And especially when you are caring for children, to do what is best for them, and not as to take care of yourself first. And you're also when you are a mother or caregiver, you're setting an example, that mental health needs to be prioritized.

Jonathan Puddle  46:56

Yes.

Lindsey Austin  46:56

And there's no shame in going to therapy, and there's no shame in taking medication and you're showing. This is how I care for myself. And if you ever have to care for yourself this way in the future. I'm here for you.

Jonathan Puddle  47:09

Yes, that's so important. Yeah, wow, that's so good. And it is kind of absurd. It to one degree, how much stigma there is attached to, to taking medication, especially among Christians, how many Christians turn up at church and are glad to brag about their daily coffee habit, and how addicted they are to their coffee. And will boast will boast about about how dependent they are on caffeine as a chemical. And yet, you know, serotonin or other or other things in their brain that maybe aren't firing properly because of genetic conditions or because of, you know, trauma because of a lifetime of suppressed emotion or, I mean, increasingly, I'm realizing a lifetime of religious toxicity that's penalized joy that's punished sexual desire. That's done all kinds of things. Lindsey, what's, what's life looking like? For you in the kids these days?

Lindsey Austin  48:17

Um, we are great. We all have our hobbies, and keep busy. Ben is into taekwondo. He does four days a week, which is a lot. But yeah, but he's, he's ADD and so he, he thrives there, like it wipes him out. I'm so thankful for Taekwondo and the discipline there. And I really liked somebody else yelling at him. And Kara has ice skating, which she loves, which is kind of funny, because we live in Alabama, like you wouldn't think. Yeah, Karen loves ice skating. She's been on it for like two years now. And she's great at it. And recently, this is something kind of silly, but very soothing. For Karen and I, we've been doing watercolor painting courses together. And it's just a great creative outlet. If you are anxious type of person, I would suggest something similar to that because it's very grounding. You're focusing on this one thing, and making it your own. And it's been beautiful for us to do together. And then both kids play piano, which I love to hear. I love our house being filled with music because Steve also played piano. So it's very kind of nostalgic and sentimental when they play. I know that I know that he would be just thrilled the way they're progressing. So, and then we have our church which we absolutely adore. It's a small Episcopal Church about 75 people and they are loving, affirming community. That's the reason why I found them. But I fall further in love because the families treat my family like their own opened up their doors and parts and to us truly anything that we need, they're there, they're there for us. So we are thriving we, all of us my first priority after Steve's death was therapy, I knew I couldn't sort through this on my own for myself or for them. And so they both spent a long time in therapy. We've all we've all kind of graduated. But we all had our own therapists that we got to talk to once a week, and sort through grief, and kind of see what's next and see how we continue to heal in the future. And that's us right now.

Jonathan Puddle  50:35

That's amazing. I'm, I'm so impressed. Because this has been such a blessing. Is there any anything else that you would want folks to remember or consider, whether they're in pastoral care roles, or just in their own mental health journey,

Lindsey Austin  50:50

maybe find a safe person, just one person that you really trust? And open up, I have three very close girlfriends. And I could literally say, I don't want to make it through the day. And they would be here. I think that can be very life saving. If you are ever in crisis, even if you're not in crisis, just to have that one person that said that you can say, I'm not okay, today can be simple, or I'm feeling very down. Isolation, I think, is probably the worst enemy for someone dealing with mental health issues. That can be hard. It's the depression and anxiety can lie to you and tell you, you're alone, when in actuality you're not. So yes, reach out to people. But if you are the person that is struggling, sometimes you have to be the one to speak up, which can be very difficult, I understand that find that courage to speak up. And to say, I mean, just to literally once a person, and then that person can do that further probing goes, Do you need to go to the doctor? Do you need me to be there right now? You know,

Jonathan Puddle  51:58

thank you. Lindsey I wonder if you would pray for us?

Lindsey Austin  52:02

Yes,I would be honored to pray for you guys. To God, thank you for this time together for discussing hard topics, for opening ourselves up for living with hope. For practical ways we can reach out. Thank you so much. For your love that sustains us, even when we feel our weakest. I pray that you would be with each listener and encourage them in their mental health journey. And encourage them to share it with just one safe person. I thank you for your bounding love for me for my children. Thank you for helping us through. Now we can shine our light and share our experiences to help someone else who's struggling. We love you. Send your name we pray. Amen.

Jonathan Puddle  52:59

Amen. Today, thankfully, there are a lot of incredible resources and lifelines available to help save lives. The National Suicide Prevention Lifeline in the United States is available at 1-800-273-8255. Online, you'll find them at suicide prevention lifeline.org And they have a chat service online 24 hours a day, where you can just jump in there really low key and anonymous and just say, Hey, I'm struggling. There's also a National Sexual Assault hotline 1-800-656-4673 They also have a chat online@hotline.rainn.org There's also the National Alliance on Mental Illness, and a mi.org. Those are all American resources. If you're in Canada, you can call 1-833-456-4566 You can go to talk suicide talk, talk suicide.ca to find immediate help with no judgment. In the United Kingdom, you can reach the National Suicide Prevention Helpline at 0-800-689-5652 at spuk.org.uk. And if you're in Australia, you can call 13-11-14 or visit lifeline.org.au. For everybody else, jump on Wikipedia and search for lists of suicide crisis lines. And they've got a curated list for many many, many countries. With all the numbers you can call and remember that wherever you are in the world, you can call your local emergency number 911 in North America. 112 or 111 in various other nations to get immediate help and care. You are worth getting the help and care you need to stay alive. I know how scary that can be. But I want you to stay here with us.

Jonathan Puddle  55:15

Friends, thank you so much for listening. This has been a emotionally charged episode for me, I felt a lot of strong emotion, thinking of Steve, talking to Lindsey, reading His words, thinking of my own history, my own story. And I pray that this is a source of hope and life. If you'd like to find out more about me and the work I do, I'm at JonathanPuddle.com on all the social channels @JonathanPuddle. And please do go and order a copy of Steve Austin's book Hiding in the Pews: Shining Light on Mental Illness in the Church. You can find out more about Steve's legacy and support his work at iamsteveaustin.com. Grace and peace to you. If you'd like to support the show, you can do so on Patreon patreon.com/jonathanpuddle if you'd like to give a one time gift to support my work, jonathanpuddle.com/support. Thank you for being here. Grace and peace to you. We'll talk soon