#129: Finding hope on the road away from God (with Jonathan Martin)

Pastor, writer and social leader Jonathan Martin returns to the show to explain how the journey that we’re each on is the journey we need to be on. Using the story of the disciples leaving Jerusalem on the road to Emmaus, Jonathan explains that even when we think we’re walking away from God, love finds us on the road. Tryphena and I ask him about the risky nature of doubt, of how granting freedom works as a pastor, and how to be honest about the harm done to us, while holding on to hope that perhaps healing is possible after all. It’s beautiful and raw and real, if you’ve felt at all disillusioned by God or church or the world in the last few years then I commend this to you wholeheartedly.

Order The Road Away from God: How Love Finds Us Even as We Walk Away, by Jonathan Martin
Listen to Jonathan’s podcast, The Zeitcast.
Learn more about Jonathan’s work at jonathanmartinwords.com
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Buy my brand new book, Mornings with God: Daily Bible Devotional for Men

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Order my trauma-informed 30-day devotional, You Are Enough: Learning to Love Yourself the Way God Loves You.
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Transcription

Jonathan Martin  00:00

I don't, I don't know that I buy this in terms of, "Ahh well, people are losing their faith and boo isn't that sad." I don't really think that, I think that people are going on journeys that they need to go on, for good reasons, instigated by the Spirit, and that God really does walk with them. So this is not, you know, "God stalks you whether you want God or not," you know, you, "You must still be a Christian." That is not what I want to say. It's much more open-ended than that in terms of like, hey, you have to walk this road of disillusionment and despair all the way through. You got to follow that wherever it takes you. But hopefully, like raising the possibility of hey, what if this actually is a spiritual journey? What if this is what it's like to walk with God, is to follow these feelings all the way through to some kind of new life on the other side, that doesn't have to take the form at all of something necessarily, that you've experienced before.

Jonathan Puddle  01:10

Hey, friends, welcome back to The Puddcast. This is episode 129. Our guest on the show is Jonathan Martin, he comes back after a couple years, and we're talking all about this idea that that the journey away from the holy place, journey away from God, maybe the journey away from where we thought we were, is actually the journey we need to be on. And that's the place that we've got gonna find resurrection. We're discussing Jonathan's new book, The Road Away from God: How Love Finds us Even as we Walk Away, and it is beautiful. Both Tryphena and I were deeply impacted by this message. So we talked about all kinds of things, leaving toxic spaces, finding God on the road, how the Holy Spirit speaks to our body, through scripture, and many other ways. So lots of fun, and hope and excitement in here for you. Also, I've got a brand new book coming out, not going to do a whole episode about it this time, just because, I don't know, busy. Anyway, I've got a new, a new men's Bible devotional that's coming out called, Mornings With God: Daily Bible Devotional for Men. That will release on July 5, you can already pre-order it on Amazon. If you head over to the show notes for this episode, jonathanpuddle.com, you'll find the links to that book, please go and order it. It's really great. I am so proud of what I wrote. It was kind of a funny thing, a publisher said, "Hey, we like what you did with you are enough. Would you like to write a Bible devotional for men?" And I said, nope, not at all. And then, and then I did. And I think it's a really interesting way, maybe for people who put the Bible down to get back into it. It is aimed at men that the gendered content is minimal. And so I know already a bunch of women who are reading pre release copies and really enjoy it. So you can go and find that wherever you find books, especially on Amazon, Mornings with God: Daily Bible Devotional for Men, by yours truly, Jonathan Puddle. Anyway, enough of that. Let's get into this fun, fun discussion with Jonathan Martin, my good friend, all about The Road Away from God: How Love Finds us Even as we Walk Away.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  03:40

I will be fully honest, I go into books, especially written by men who are white, and I'm like, I'm just not going to like it. I am not going to like it.

Jonathan Martin  03:48

Yeah.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  03:48

I loved it! In the span of the last five days, I have recommended it to everyone I've talked to. And it was everything God has been talking to me about to our church about, you're talking about shaking, you're talking about not going into places where like, that you can't, you have outgrown your home, and like, oh my goodness, everything, every thought that I've had in the last 10 days, you spoke about. So I do really feel like it's a prophetic voice for this moment, at least in my life, so thank you.

Jonathan Martin  04:15

That's huge. Oh my gosh, that's, like, I still get it. Because one of the things I've wrestled with, honestly, in this cultural moment, is this, like, do I have anything that I feel like I really need to say is that helpful? Because you know, I just so legitimately do believe that it's a time broadly speaking with the church in particular needs other voices. So I don't know if they're just I have sensitivity around it, you know, and not like so it's just I'm really thankful that that feels like it. It connects because I hope it would reflect you know, the ways that um, you know, continue to learn and grow and be on that kind of journey, but the idea of like, I don't even know I'm kind of like, oh, like, Dear God, does the world need another book by...

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  05:01

They do.

Jonathan Martin  05:02

...a white Evangelical-ish person, so you know.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  05:05

And you know what, you did an amazing job amplifying voices in that space, like even going back to Reverend Otis and like, calling out different voices and different, like frameworks of thought I thought was so helpful. So no, I really, really honestly appreciated it. And I would not tell you I appreciated it if I didn't, so...

Jonathan Martin  05:20

Sure, sure. No, thank you. That's, that's, that's a huge deal to me. So

Jonathan Puddle  05:25

Awesome. When you were on the show two years ago, I remember saying to other people who some of whom didn't know you, I'm like, I feel like Jonathan is like, I think after we connected, it confirmed for me the suspicion that I've had that you were like the older brother that I didn't have. And there's just such a alignment, and what our stories what you've grown up in, and this book, The Road away from God, like the sheer amount of ridiculous charismatic stories that you share. It meant so much to me. Like, a guy who wants took Jesus on a date on Valentine's to a restaurant, and ordered a meal for him, and fully hoped that it would just disappear. But it didn't, and had to be left with what do I how do we write what do we do with this at the end of the night situation, like the audacity of following the spirit, and of having that even as a as a bedrock point of your faith, and then enduring the hardship of life. It just It spoke to me at a very, very deep and visceral level. So thank you for being boldly yourself in what you chose to include.

Jonathan Martin  06:39

Thank you for making me feel less weird, because you didn't like I said for like, you know, it is it's like those things are so particular to have the Valentine's story but then to live some life in aisle two, and it kind of so you know, when you try to talk about all that together, you just know, like, is that going to converge for anyone else? Or is it going to be like, we don't know what's wrong with you?

Jonathan Puddle  07:02

This, this thing, I think, is sorry, I'm stumbling over my words, because, because this is a book that really spoke to me at a heart level. And I've got questions, I've got things that I do want to hear from you. But I think just as I'm even processing the impact in my life already, I read this quote this week from Cornel West, which was actually on a meme and it was missed. I went and searched for his original words. And basically he said, Dr., Dr. West said, "As a Christian, I'm never surprised by evil. I'm never paralyzed by despair." And that, that rocked me because I am constantly surprised by evil, I am often paralyzed by despair. And, and I feel like the faith deconstruction, this moment that we're in, like, that was 15 years ago for me. So I'm not wrestling with my faith. I'm wrestling with life having lost its shine.

Jonathan Martin  07:58

Yeah, well

Jonathan Puddle  07:59

That's like, that's where Jonathan Puddle is at right now. And I feel like what you and some other not to put too fine a point on it. But I feel like, this is what some Millennials need from Gen X, if I can use these labels, like, we were raised by our boomer parents to be kind of like, we, here's the  best, you, we want the best for you. So go get a university education, everything's gonna work out great, you're gonna get a job and things are gonna be fabulous. And then you can chase the next stage of the prosperous stream. And I think my generation is just stuck going, this didn't work. What do we do next? And so when some of our older, wiser Gen X brothers and sisters are like, well, we've been depressed for 30 years, and some of us found hope. So let me tell you how it works. I feel like that's what that's what this book did for me.

Jonathan Martin  08:57

Wow, that's, that's really profound. It's interesting, even that the of finding anything that works and sharing it, because I think, and I don't know. I mean, I'm for one just being so ADHD, and knowing that at learning that ADHD, oftentimes, you're four or five years behind developmentally in certain ways, and because I just so feel like that's part of the weirdness of my life is like, I'm 44. And the sense of, Oh, it feels more like 23 It's more like, I don't really know how to be in the world right now. I'm really, really tried to sort this out. And it's somebody, I'm just glad that, that, that lands that way, because I think so much of sort of the world as it was given to me, has been uprooted in that way. It does feel like a lot of just, I don't know, just just experimentation and trying to figure out how exactly to what to how to sort these stories and how to disentangle all this stuff. I mean, that's still you know, been fairly real time for me in a lot of ways. So I'm, I'm just saying thankful for that that's connecting on that level.

Jonathan Puddle  10:03

Can you walk us like in a nutshell through some of this Emmaus Road message? So I've been watching you piece it together, I guess kind of in real time, as you said, as on social media, and it was already landing for me. I'm like, wow, yeah. When you leave the holy city,

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  10:19

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  10:20

You, you are surprised by who you find on the road. So I wonder if like, just boil this whole beautiful thing down to a few minutes and hit us with it?

Jonathan Martin  10:30

Well, I think the so the short version for me and this, this story has been so electrifying now for a couple of years in a way that just, I just keep finding my journey in it, the journey of people that I love in it. And it's interesting, because only like 13 verses and you don't, it's not like this, not like there's a lot there. But it feels like it's sort of, and I don't even mean this to be hyperbole, it feels like it sort of contains every story, in a lot of ways. It's kind of Garden of Eden than walking away. It's kind of but what I, what I love the most about it, and where it's kind of just been sort of screaming at me the last few years, this is seeing it through this lens that the two disciples on the road to Emmaus for him because we don't know why they're going to amass precisely we don't know if their homes are there or mis is on route to their homes. But I think theologically, and literarily speaking, Jerusalem's definitely home. And that being the place that's, you know, as Jewish people understand themselves to be part of a reform movement within Judaism, honoring Jesus as Messiah there and things it was like Christians yet or whatever, I mean, Jerusalem is the center of the universe. And the idea that the place that had been the holy place for them, this sacred space, now being the same place where they've seen Jesus of Nazareth killed. My sense of it is my reading of it is that for them walking away from Jerusalem is to extensively walk away from God, especially since as we find out in the text, you know, they're just convinced this whole thing is over and just hasn't worked. So this idea that it because of course, for people who are familiar with the story, a stranger comes and walks alongside them, who turns out to be the resurrected Jesus. And I've just found it to be such a, such a life giving vision, this idea of Jesus as the God who walks with us, even on the road away from God. And, you know, it's like, so many people that I think that we know and love have been on quite the faith journey the last few years. And, of course, here in America, I mean, it gets in all these things have been true forever. But 2016 following being such an apocalyptic time, so many things being revealed, it's just given me a very different lens on the road that almost everybody I care about seems to be walking in some form or another. And it's, there's this tension, because I don't want it to be, I don't want it to feel like spin. It's not I'm not trying to be optimistic, or glass half full. That story has really reshaped how I see a lot of this in terms of I don't, I don't know that I buy this in terms of, well, people are losing their faith. And is that sad, I don't really think that I think that people are going on journeys that they need to go on, and for good reasons instigated by the Spirit, and that God really does walk with them. So trying to kind of shift the attention to not in a way that overwhelms people into feeling like they have to believe something that they don't want to believe, but at least maybe, help kind of guiding people into the question, Where might God be on the road that I'm walking, as opposed to any of this, like, you know, any version of circling back or trying to recapture a thing or being shamed? Because you left something that you needed to leave now, like, God's on the road that you're walking now? Where is God on that road? And what might God be saying that, for me is really the heart of the the heart of the book.

Jonathan Puddle  14:09

I love it. It's so real. Like you said, it's so many of our journeys.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  14:16

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  14:18

I'm interested to know like how you respond to people in the one on one because I think I've, I've been coming I've been intuiting what you're saying, but I'm so conflict averse. I'm, I'm often like not sure how to strictly respond to someone. So, I was, I was at a an outdoor club thing couple years ago, pre-COVID. And, and I bumped into this guy on the beach dancing, who I knew from church days, like way back, it was the randomest encounter. And he just kind of immediately broke down and was like, yeah, I lost my faith. And I didn't really know what to say to him. And I had this like, I wanted to kind of acknowledge it. It looks to me like you are heartbroken that you lost something precious to you. But you also seem ashamed. And I would like you to know that the Father has not lost track of you. But I didn't know what to say, I think I gave him an awkward hug, and I moved off to dance elsewhere. So I know you talk to people like... What, how do you when the listening portion transitions to the moment for Jonathan to speak into someone's life, what are you saying to people?

Jonathan Martin  15:34

Well, I think, goodness, what a great question. And and I feel like I find myself saying a few different things. I mean, one of it is what I love what you put your finger on in that story, because it's interesting how many people, I don't think I've thought about it quite this way before this moment, that might even externally be like, Yeah, I'm done with that, and might even be so far along as to be like, f all of that, burn it down. But also still have such deep internalized shame, that like where it's kind of like, yeah, where there's this sense of, I can't, I can't be in these spaces. But I still feel kind of bad that I can't. Or like I'm doing something wrong. Because, you know, when you've been connected to a community for a long time, and that community, I mean, all of us get a sense of identity from our communities. And so when those folks relate to us differently. So, I just think that creates a unique kind of angst, then you know, where there's this sort of, well, I'm, this is kind of the road, I have to be walking, but I'm not even sure how to feel about it. So, well, you know, what, really, in terms of what I'm what I find myself saying a lot right now, and I know I go here a lot in the book is that, and I don't, it was the sweet that thing you're saying but kind of an elder brother. Because of the way all of this again, you figure this out in real time, I never think of myself as like, oh, like elder or something. But what I have come to really believe is powerful. We, nobody needs some kind of external authority to do this for us, technically. But I think when people give us a sense of release and permission, it becomes like a temporary marker until we realize, oh, I can give myself that kind of permission. So I feel like a lot of what I've found myself doing really is trying to, just to just to affirm, like, hey, the journey that you're on is the journey that you need to be on. And instead of all this doing this whole diagnostic, where it's like if I would have made this turn rather than that, and it's there no, no, the road that you're on is the road that you need to be on, in a way that gives people permission to walk where they need to walk, as opposed to because yeah, I just feel like that, that experience of kind of going a certain direction. But then also a lot of second guessing. When you have this deep kind of religious wiring, I just think that's often how it is you don't just you can, you can, if you decided the next day. I'm an atheist, I'm like, whatever I'm done, whatever that wiring is such you know, it's it's complicated.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  18:13

It is so complicated. This is what I've been wrestling with, because for at least for those of us who have grown up in the church world, right, and you talk about this internal wiring, if you have had this in your body, from a very young age from before you were born, all of that, like the level of unsecure attachment that you carry, and the level of shame you walk through the world in. So then you're you're attaching yourself, you're allowing all these negative things to attach of like, okay, well, I'm not like I'm good enough. So the power of you even like, normalizing the journey, like, hey, you are allowed to actually you're supposed to be on this journey of questioning, this is actually maturity in your walk is so powerful, because I think the amount of people who are quote on quote, walking away, are actually protecting their bodies. For the first time they're like, no more, I'm not going to identify with the shame that's being placed on me, I'm not going to allow it to attach. And so I really appreciated the empowerment in how you spoke about it. I'm like, no, this is a huge act of courage, you're going on to walk away. And like God is with you in it. It's very significant right now.

Jonathan Martin  19:23

I so appreciate you saying that, and I did that just idea of the way that we carry things in our bodies. And, and it's a part, you know, part of this is why it's not as neat for me either. It's just again, telling people, giving them some easy prescriptive of like, well, here's, here's how you can find faith on the other side. I just, you know, I think especially when you're in that stage where you're trying to figure out how to protect your body and your soul. And that's that's a that's a very Tinder thing. Yeah, it's like I found myself But I just keep thinking about this so much. And some of the conversations I've had in the last couple of weeks, not actually in response to any pushback, because I haven't had pushback this way no one has is making me feel like the book is saying this, but it's like, I feel the need to give such a disclaimer of this is not, you know, God stalks you whether you want God or not, you know, you, you must still be a Christian. That is not what I want to say. It's much more open ended than that in terms of like, Hey, you have to walk this road of disillusionment and despair all the way through. You got to follow that wherever it takes you. But hopefully, like raising the possibility of hey, what if this actually is a spiritual journey? What if this is what it's like to walk with God is to follow these feelings all the way through to some kind of new life on the other side, that doesn't have to take the form at all of something necessarily, that you've experienced before. So just but wanting to give people space, like wherever you are on that road is, is truly is okay. That's been like kind of a tightrope to walk in a lot of ways.

Jonathan Puddle  21:10

Definitely. You wrote in the book, God was present with you in the naive safety you had in the place that you came from. The God was also present in the restlessness that sturdy to leave. And then I think, yeah, the the piece, then that follows which you wrote at a later point in the book, we have to leave the house of God in order to encounter God in the wild. And to truly know there is no where God is not. And I that I appreciate that clarification you just made because if your picture of God is still violent, misogynistic retributive. Now Jonathan Martin is telling you there's nowhere God is not so like, you're pretty much screwed, son. Right? That's not the gospel. That's not good news. That's that's in fact, bad news.

Jonathan Martin  22:02

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  22:02

But if God is generative, generous self giving others centered, sacrificial love.

Jonathan Puddle  22:09

Yes.

Jonathan Puddle  22:10

And there's, you know, even if I make my bed and she'll, even there, you'll love will find me. That was exactly our experience. My wife and I, 15 years ago, it was leaving the house of God to encounter God in the wild. It was like the whisper from the bush being like, hey, I'm out here, come. I think I think you can we go through those stages, right? I feel like I went through a big stage of, if God is saying he's out here, in the woods in the wilderness, then it means he is not in the church anymore. Right. And I went very black and white. And I took my, I guess I took my fundamentalism with me.

Jonathan Martin  22:50

Sure, sure. As we do,

Jonathan Puddle  22:52

As we do, until suffering breaks us down.

Jonathan Martin  22:56

That's right. That's right. No, it's gonna that's been that that also, boy, and it's taken me a long time to get there. So that's been like, this is not something that I say, in an easy, like, trite way, but for me, actually, it's become kind of important to say, and I, this is not a way of trying to, again, assert for people who have had really toxic experiences that they need to, like, find something good in it. But I feel like the more I walk with, you know, all kinds of folks are on this kind of journey, what I find pretty consistently and this, which is why this is so confusing. Very rarely do people have the experience of like, I was in this religious system, and this institution, whatever, and everything was 100% harm. And it's all fake. And I need to go precisely what makes it so bewildering is that you had experiences of harm and healing in the same space. So you can look back and go, Oh, wait, we'll hear were genuine experiences of community or here is some kind of mystical experience I had that's really was really important to me, or I got where I got clean, you know, going to AA at this church, whatever, whatever the story might be. And then you do feel like, especially when things get stirred up, or at least I do, that you have to render a verdict on everything is, is was this good? Or was this bad? And so I would love for, for folks to have a sense like, it's actually okay to say it has been both of those things. And some of this is like unbearably toxic, I can't believe I did that. I can't believe I was there. I can't believe I survived that but then also, have permission that if there are things that you need to take with you that it's okay to do that it's okay to say like but, but these experiences were precious to me or these relationships actually did help me to get from here to here, even if they're not serving where I'm going now. And it just be alright to acknowledge that all of that's in the mix.

Jonathan Puddle  24:59

Yes. Yeah, you shared a story about a pastor doing some kind of ultimatum, and you walked up. And I had, again, a visceral reaction to that, because like, I have got my card stamped. And I have played the party line against my better conscience. Because I thought it's what I needed to do. I just been trained to honor the leader. And that, that, and that my conscience was subordinate.

Jonathan Martin  25:29

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  25:30

To the leader. And I think yeah, like you said, giving that permission to be like, maybe that's as crazy as you suspect it is.

Jonathan Martin  25:39

It's interesting, you bring that up, too, because that wasn't in the initial draft. And my editor pushed me a little to say, you know, you do this whole, like, what sets you off on the journey, and you don't really talk about yours? And so I had to sit with okay, where do I feel like this started for me? I can't tell you how much I wrestled with including that story at all. Because even though I don't name names, and I do actually kind of go out of my way to not make it like trying to shame anybody else, or something. But the honor culture that I come from is still so kind of in my bones. I really did wrestle with like, oh, is this is this dishonouring? Is this uncovering? Is this like, what? It was the thing that after the thing was completely done? I can't like this close. Like, should I? Should I ask the publisher, like, I think maybe I shouldn't really run with the story. But it actually took me a bit. It's not okay. This really isn't a story about them. This is my story. This is what happened to me. This is how it's important on this road that I've been walking. But all the like hoops I had to get through. Just to feel like to tell that story in print was okay.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  26:51

Well, I think it's so interesting, because we come from this Charismatic Pentecostal space where we instill in ourselves, well, there is no, no Junior Holy Spirit. But yet in these moments, it's like no, but we carry a junior holy, we lie to ourselves that we carry a junior Holy Spirit, because we can't question the people in authority over us who have the Holy Spirit, which, so I loved how you spoke about this innate desire that we have for kingship, where it's like, it's easier to instead of doing the discernment path, it's easier just ask for kings and ask for roles. And we look at the story of Israel. And it's like, well, the rest of the world has kings to judge them, can we just have that? And so I'm wrestling through this in my own space, right? Because I, I get the we don't want to live in a black and white we don't live in like this binary. I appreciate how you held space for like the dialectic like, we can hold both tensions we can hold that we can see two different sides and parts of Scripture and you know, and in the parts that we interpret and all of that, but what is it in your because I know that you also pastor a church? What does this look like in your life, where you then pastor, a church or you pastor a congregation, you're like, Okay, so I'm going to be the wise leader, I'm not going to be the king. I'm going to give people permission to come to this journey and in their own. So if someone was to start their own journey, because of something you said, God forbid, right, like, how do we create a culture where that is okay.

Jonathan Martin  28:16

Yeah. Oh, that's such a great question. You know, and I feel like honestly, the whatever the little thing is that we're doing with The Table Oklahoma City, on sometimes I feel like it's, it's felt almost unfair, the way because what look, what we're doing is, it's not, it's small, it's not glamorous, it's not big, like whatever. But I feel like the thing that we have, sometimes feel like it's sort of fill out of the sky, just in the sense that, okay, so the folks that started the table on the city, because the that I love, it technically started small group formed before I got there. And that included, not only Nicole, but then I mean, CeCe Jones Davis, who of course, lives in DC now, but CeCe was the Co-founder, our friend, Malika Cox, she's unbelievable. And so on. Honestly, it was kind of like, this community of well, is the way, the way that we would say that a badass women of God, this, I did this thing. And so it was like, so already in that, like, from the ground up, it was so communal, is so like, because they're extraordinary people and like we trusted each other. So for us, it's been really organic and natural to do something that doesn't have this kind of authoritarian, like, what but I mean, it's part of it's such, it's just such a great group of people. It's been very easy, I think, for us to develop that kind of sense of trust and rapport with each other. Whereas I know that the challenge for so many people is in the communities that they live, they haven't necessarily found those other kinds of people who are on that kind of journey. They feel like they could trust and and in that way, it's been so organic. For us, it would even be a little hard for me to tell somebody else how to replicate it, because it's like, it's been so relational, and kind of come so. So naturally for us, but I will say, what it has looked like, for us has been very much like, you know, we don't, we don't really do anything, that's not basically consensus. It's like we, you know, we talked about everything. And if we all feel comes from living together, then we go forward, and if anybody feels uncomfortable, then we don't. But this idea of really trusting each other's discernment in that way. And and not know it again, not in a way that's reactive to where we're we come from, I don't think it is that but just in a sense of, we absolutely want to make sure that everybody's sense of the Holy Spirit, and what you know, what the voice that they hear is saying is fully honored here, without anybody ever feeling, you know, coerced or manipulated. And I mean, you know, it's, it's a less, it's a less efficient way of doing anything. There's a reason why that kind of evangelical stuff works, because it's, it's wildly efficient, to have one person who hears from God, who does like in terms of like systems and structures that grow. I mean, it's a much easier way to do a thing. And I think that's precisely why again, a lot of spiritual leaders will be uncomfortable, giving people this much permission. Because when, and I just said this with empathy, when you have a thing that you've built, and because a lot of spiritual leaders I talked to are on this kind of journey, and are freaking out because it's like, well, but if I talk to my congregation about this, if they knew the things I was really thinking, and I actually do get it, it's like, well, there's a staff, and it feels like livelihoods are at stake, not just my own. So I get where it is kind of a journey into the wild, and you don't know what it's gonna look like. And yeah, maybe 50 people and 50% of the people would leave if they knew. Because people, especially when people are drawn to the certainty that you provide, if you, if people feel like you pull that out from underneath them, then you don't know what's gonna happen. So.

Jonathan Puddle  32:05

But it doesn't feel like there's a ton of viable alternatives, right, like speaking from the current pain of our lives. You know, where we've been looking at the one Canadian mega church that seems to be an example of Jesus centric, whole health and success that has been revealed to be not that with great pain, obviously hidden pain for many people for a long time. You're now public pain for many. It's like, okay, well, your options are control and eventually, if people leave your church because you've created a toxic space, try to run everything really well and be a superstar, but eventually you will cause a sex scandal because you're not a safe person. You know, I think it's like the messy, inefficient, it seems like the only option like I've just come off three weeks vacation in Europe. And I just feel like, the only thing that matters is sipping fine wines and enjoying the company of friends and family. I don't think anything else matters.

Jonathan Martin  33:14

Yes.

Jonathan Puddle  33:15

Like ask me again in a few weeks, I suppose when I get sucked back into the hustle, but I don't know.

Jonathan Martin  33:21

That sounds like revelation to me. But you know, and I think that's, and see... And that's really okay it's that's one of them. That's a while for me about the Emmaus Road story. And it's had me so wound up about all this for a while this idea that if, if we're able to read it as the two disciples are walking away from institution, temple, church, I'm, I've go out of my way, of course, I don't think it's about leaving Judaism. I actually think this is probably the path to mature religion like anywhere. But the idea is that they leave their community but in the process of sharing their deepest pain with each other on the road, which is really all we know, is that about their conversation is that it's full of pain. If, if in doing that, it creates a new community where there is something very sacred about that vulnerability that happens. I mean, that's, that's what I love that so much about what you're saying, like hey, I've been I've been in Europe for three weeks and I think I've in the moment I found all the church I need because when I'm with the people I love and sharing glass of wine, and like what what more is there in this that's part of I love about this story so much is I feel like it's kind of there. It's like the well the temple is with you. God is with you is you're creating this new community that comes out of vulnerable conversation.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  34:46

Yes. Okay. So my systems thinking brain connected with my revival background is now going okay. Is there now actually like an outpouring of the Spirit and even as I asked it, I think the answer obviously is yes. In this communal space of faith, deconstruction, of disillusionment of this whole cultural moment of the last three to two to seven years depending on which communities you inhabit, right? Like you wrote shared grief shared. Okay? I'll get the emphasis right? Shared grief and longing can build a holy Cathedral, a place for the Spirit to dwell. And as I think about our social media followings, and all these different intersecting communities between Twitter and Instagram, I'm like, this is a big ass temple. And I see the Spirit showing up. And is this now the promised not to put too fine appointment? The next wave of revival, you know, like,

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  35:53

A million soul harvest.

Jonathan Puddle  35:54

A millio soul harvest? The billion soul harvest turns out to be a billion disillusioned people who thought they were leaving religion behind. I don't know. But it's it's just where my spirit was going. As I'm like, hmmmm? What might the Lord of hosts be shaking loose? Writes Jonathan Martin. What treasure buried in these depths might yet come to light.

Jonathan Martin  36:22

I, I can't even tell you how much that resonates with me. Because that feels so right. I think in a way I feel like it has to be true. I think the you know, sort of the the flip side of it. And, and I think we're all kind of wrestling with this, too, is when we well, even what you said this much earlier in the conversation, all the ways that you know it first, when you leave fundamentalism you finally this was all like I'm now I'm just being a fundamentalist about this. That's part of where I feel like it's so important that we keep going. Because I think I think it is a movement of the Spirit. It does feel like it I do read it more like a revival in that way. But at the same time, we're all seeing I think people really trying to sort in real time, okay, like, how does this not become another version of if you don't agree with us on all 15 of our things, you're out, you're done. By the way, we're against the death penalty. But if, if you get something wrong, like here, we will disassociate from you for the rest of our lives. And it's, you might as well like, like, not exist. Oh, wait a second, what does that sound like? You know, I feel like there's that that thing is very, like real too. It's like, now be able to create community that really does it function like those communities work.

Jonathan Puddle  37:49

Yeah. Well, you said you said also that pain has a way of blinding pain also as a way of blinding you to holy things. And I thought that was very, very wise because it's easy to romanticize suffering, right? It's easy to put it up on this pedestal. But, but it is actually a really painful disassembly. And I feel like, okay, I don't have quite the words to say this. But I feel like if we knew that our rescue was guaranteed, it cheapens the deal. To a certain degree, right? Like, I'm thrilled, I'm really thrilled about Judge Brown. I'm marginally less thrilled that Biden said, my next Court appointment will be an African American woman, I'd prefer he would have said, my next Court appointment will be the most qualified person, period, and then went and appointed Judge Brown, like, like, I feel like, we have to actually fall apart. And, and I feel like, in a sense, there's no guarantee like, I don't know, I, I don't know if Jesus knew he would be resurrected. And this is the thing that I wrestle with. If Jesus, did he go to the grave? All in with no plan B. And what does that mean for us? Yeah, just it seems like, like there are those on the road with us who take their lives. Or as David Tennyson beautifully said, give their lives back to God, whether that's what their intent is or not. And there's a riskiness I think that's what I'm trying to get at. There's I feel like there's a really tenuous riskiness that we that we would be doing a disservice if we didn't acknowledge like, this is not like yes, go leave the city on your quest, and a mysterious stranger will meet you and guide you back to wholeness. And that's not what you're saying. I know that I know. You have not dressed it up like this pretty thing, but I know I know. I'm just I'm sitting here looking at people and going this guy It is really suffering. I've got nothing to give him. Maybe other than bread.

Jonathan Martin  40:08

That's really that's haunting and powerful because I've like and what I love about it not the not romanticizing the suffering is this idea that because I think you get to a certain point where, because I do think this actually is a journey into the wild, and you don't know how it's going to land, especially when you're trying to disentangle all the stuff that's like that deeply embedded in you. If, if the idea really is something like, no matter where it goes, it's still the road you have to walk, it's still the journey that you have to take, because it's going to be the only way that you're going to find a sense of, of integration yourself of being true to what's kind of in you to do now, that's a really powerful idea of kind of this sort of, well, we're we're actually not guaranteed, we don't really know where this is going to land, right? Hey, what this is a holy journey, wherever it takes you, because you're, you're following the thing, and the thing is inside you, you're listening to that voice inside of you. And that has to be right. Whether or not it works out.

Jonathan Puddle  41:14

If you're doing that, how could it be anything other than a holy journey? Yeah, but but that, but that flies in the face of what we were all taught.

Jonathan Martin  41:22

Yeah.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  41:22

It's interesting, because I think in least in the traditions I have come from, there's been such little value on how you feel about it, like how your body experiences it, right. And so you're right, it does fly in the face of everything we've been taught, but it was gonna say was, it's interesting, cuz I think you speak about this as well, Jonathan Martin got to Jonathan's here where being a somewhat Christian, or following Jesus, whatever that looks like, does not ensure the cancer is not going to ravage your life does not ensure the calamity, and poverty and all of that is not going to happen. And that flies in the face of what we've been taught in the way that sowing and reaping has been interpreted, right, because we've been taught if you do it this way, this will happen if you quote on quote, save yourself for marriage. This you're gonna have a hot ass wife. Like, I'm so tired of pastors. Anyway, it's a whole other thing, right? But it's, it's really like, it's, it's, it's been taught as an equation, when really all God has promised us is to walk the shit out with us.

Jonathan Martin  42:30

Yeah.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  42:31

And I'm so tired of the space where we have so many books right now on deconstruction, as long as you are going to reconstruct, so you can deconstruct you can ask all the questions, as long as you come back to this system and structure that empowers certain people in certain ways of doing things. Versus I've really appreciated even the way you spoke about shaking, because I do believe we are in a season of shaking, where we have a God who is for liberation and for redemption. And this shaking is shaking all of it up. Right? Like it cannot look like what it's looked like before. Yes, God was with us in all of that. And you're right, that there were beautiful moments, there were moments of manifestation and healing, and all of it that happened. But just because what I've had to wrestle with because I think, how I like my own my own garbage, I'm talking about Tryphena. I'm not going to blame this on a church or a person. I have lied to myself that if I feel like Holy Spirit has shown up in a situation, that Holy Spirit is approving of what is happening in the situation. Where those two things are not always congruent. Right, and sometimes, Holy Spirit can show up and there is still stuff that needs to change. How many how often and like Puddle, you and I have talked about this? Where major Christian leaders, their abuse scandals have come to life and people are like, Well, no, that can't be true. Because do you not see how God quote on quote, used them? Do you not see how Holy Spirit's power was moving through them? I'm sorry, who are we that Holy Spirit's power can't move through us? And our baggage still not be there? Anyways, I digress. But I do really appreciate the conversation around there is a shaking happening. There are new things that are happening. And we don't always know what those are. One of the beautiful things I love about the charismatic churches we talk about, like even in the world of manifestation. Like there are things in this world that eyes have nots, they're things that we are going to see the eyes have not seen. And we're you know, I'm butchering like the quote right now. But I think that's true even for our faith journey, and for where our churches and our theology is going like this is not just as you know, screaming like chickens, I love and respect all of it. But it also is going to be how our faith now plays out and 2022.

Jonathan Martin  45:00

Yes. Good grief out that's, there's so much and what you said, That's so. So right it's well, and so many different directions I mean everything from okay you, you go on this journey and I really do believe and I, and I'm using a story from the Gospels illustrate this which could maybe can make it sound like it has to has to be a thing, but part of what I love about the story is the resurrection comes in a form that's so different, you don't recognize it. And I feel like we always like these stupid disciples, like none of them ever recognized. Why actually, no, that's, I think part of the idea is that the form of New Life can be so different from what it was before. Like, we would be afraid to say that that's that's God, or that that could be good, because well, that's this is just so not the form that we that we expected. But I love I just I love everything you're saying in terms of, I guess maybe just because this is in real time, this stuff I've been blessed couple weeks, thinking about a different level, this whole notion of, yeah, just because good things happen, doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is somehow authorizing everything. And yet I was, I recorded this little podcast, when I was driving a few days ago, just my headphones, and it was wild. I just kind of went on whatever the thing and I felt like I hit this nerve, because it wasn't something I'd really thought about consciously before. But I was thinking about how the, by the same token in the spaces that now I would deem to be very toxic, and are saying and doing all kinds of toxic things. That then you can hear someone within that, that camp or maybe sandwiched in between a lot of ideology, that's awful. All of a sudden, here's 10 minutes, here's a riff, here's a thought, here's something I was like, whoa, well, that sounds like the sound of liberation. And this this idea, you know, that the Spirit of the Lord is upon me preach the gospel for liberate the captives, all that kind of things, people stumble into liberating moments, or because they have had some experience of mercy. And I think what happens a lot of times is people aren't able to trust that and follow it all the way through. But it's it's helping me to kind of make more sense of Yeah, it is. Anybody has access to the Spirit. Anybody has access to this. So yes, sometimes. So people can kind of come in and out of that. And I think if we can just get past the notion that any of us at any phase on the journey, anytime in our life, God is authorizing everything, or delegitimizing everything. It's just that just doesn't work like that. No, like, it's what there's way more discernment involved with that it there's no point on the journey, where you're not gonna be right about something's wrong about others, and still need to be like really self critical in that way, instead of because I think we still I want to, I'm still drawn to think well, or is this one? Is this one of the good people? Or is this one of the bad people? And you know, it's just interesting how much that I feel like is still in me to do.

Jonathan Puddle  48:05

Yeah, that's a word.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  48:06

Yes.

Jonathan Puddle  48:07

That's so good. Jonathan, I enjoyed this book so much. Something we've run out of time for but I just, when you when you said about the the arc of Scripture and kind of like the narrative direction when you, you said, like, our affections are being shaped in such a way that we are supposed to feel bad for Esau, you know, and we're meant to see these movements in Scripture. That was one of the moments where I broke down and cried. Because I just had been handed such a flat reading of this thing. And everything was just about authoritative rightness. And if it was there, it was for authoritative rightness. And you just have to just have to believe in the sovereignty of God. And it's fair because God chooses it to be fair. And I think just that discernment piece, like you just said, there's never a point when we are not going to require discernment. That rings really true for me, and and actually seeing what we were actually handed a scripture, holy scriptures that teach us to discern, and if you are not discerning while reading, you're going to end up in bad dangerous places. So again thank you.

Jonathan Martin  49:33

I don't mean to go and like another like riff or something, but I've give this stuff up. I could just front of my brain right now, but it's kind of because I think actually we because we have we weren't given good resources to read Scripture well, and then we don't trust your own instinct. Thanks. Because there's 1000 examples. I mean, it's kind of like, okay, people read about Solomon and apparently has this gift of wisdom. So it's like what Gods was Solomon, Solomon's good. Well, actually read the story all the way through. Solomon is pretty clearly not good. Solomon's not, not someone to emulate Solomon, like most of what he does actually turns out to not be that was in debris, pretty terrible. And that's all there in the texts. So when you're reading that you feel like, well, I don't think Solomon's all that great. I don't think this, this whole empire building project seems to land well, you know, that is in itself, like the Holy Spirit. And I just, you know, I just wish that we felt more authorized in that way to trust our own responses to these stories, you know, as opposed to the idea of like, if there's some general sense that any of these characters in the story of religious Well, what what they're doing must be all right. Oh, no, like a lot of these examples, then that have been held up to us as positive are really in the, in the sacred narrative, the idea of like, this is actually what not to do. Yes.

Jonathan Puddle  50:51

Yeah. So true. So good. Jonathan, would you pray for us?

Jonathan Martin  50:57

I would love that I'd be honored. And thank you, I just can't say enough about like, oh, this, this conversation is so life giving. For me, I just love this feel so gently, like it's just one of the things like, this is just this is this is what it's all about, for me is having this kind of connection and makes me feel so much less strange. And I can't thank you enough for this. So yeah, I'd love to pray. Well, God, I just thank you for the holy thing that's happening here, as our hearts are breaking open, and it just, it just really feels that way, that sense of we're having authentic discoveries on the road, and we're seeing things and each other's words that are helping us to make sense of our own stories around journey. I guess my prayer right now would just be that for anybody who's listening, that You would bless them with those kinds of relationships. And specifically, because I think sometimes it's more what we need, the ability to discern and recognize those relationships are the holy things that they are. And it's not arbitrary, that they're these other people that we're walking with, that are helping us make sense of the road. These are. These are Divine Messengers. These are, these are holy conversations. And I just pray you give us the grace, to have those kinds of moments of recognition that we see that when we're breaking open in this way, and when we're able to bring comfort to each other and our stories are, are helping us make sense of another story is all of that I just pray that would give us the grace to be able to see what a holy thing that is and receive it for the gift as this name the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Amen.

Jonathan Puddle  52:53

Amen. Amen. Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you, Tryphena. Man, that was so fun. We went and recorded a B-Side immediately after this. So it'll be up on The Puddcast in a week or two. Go listen to that when it comes out cause Tryphena and I dug deeper and deeper into the stuff and we just continued the conversation without Jonathan so... well, without that, Jonathan, obviously. That's an old joke that needs to go to bed. Friends, if you're loving the show, and would like to support my work, you can do that a few different ways. You can go to Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and find Jonathan Puddle @JonathanPuddle, easy to find, slap a follow on me. Put some likes on some posts, share them with a friend. If you are in a position to support financially, go buy one of my books, You Are Enough: Learning to Love Yourself the Way God Loves You, or my brand new forthcoming Mornings with God: Daily Bible Devotional for Men. You can also join me on Patreon, $3/month gets you in. And that will really help me keep this work going. So I'd love for you to consider that. You could also get more on Patreon and some folks giving 10, 20, 50 bucks a month and that is a huge, huge blessing. Thank you to everyone who supports the work. All right, you guys love to all. Thanks for being with me. Thanks for sharing this stuff. And let's continue on this road where I think we're gonna find continued hope, continued life, continued joy, because God is faithful. Grace and peace to you. We'll talk soon.