#118: When all you want to do is to give up (with Christine Caine)
This week I am honoured to welcome Christine Caine to The Puddcast. Christine and her husband Nick founded the A21 Campaign, a global anti human trafficking organization, and Christine is a much sought-after speaker, writer and activist. We discussed how to keep our faith anchored in Jesus in the context of doing hard, exhausting work. When we know that the mission before us is costly and painful, and we are tempted to call it a day, how do we continue in faithfulness? Especially when we know that God still loves us if we tap out. Christine’s insights are hard-won and she explores them all in her latest book, How Did I Get Here?: Finding Your Way Back to God When Everything is Pulling You Away. This is my last episode for the next few months, as I head into my summer vacation.
Order How Did I Get Here?: Finding Your Way Back to God When Everything is Pulling You Away, by Christine Caine
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Once you’ve listened to this, make sure to check out the raw and uncut B-Side interview where my friends and I unpack the conversation in even more detail. Available exclusively on Patreon.
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Transcription
Jonathan Puddle 00:03
Hello, my friends welcome back to The Puddcast with me, Jonathan Puddle. This is Episode 118. This will be our final episode for the summer, in the Northern Hemisphere at least. I am about to take a couple of months off at least from podcasting. I plan to write, hopefully, I will get back into a flow now that school is done and my kids are having a little bit of time away with their grandparents. Praise the Lord. Anyway, my friends I'm so excited to introduce to you today's guest, known around the world, Christine Caine. Christine and her husband, Nick founded the A21 campaign, an anti human trafficking organization that is working in many nations all around the world. Christine is an activist, an author, international speaker, she has written countless books, and it was my great honor to connect with her all about her latest book, How Did I Get Here?: Finding Your Way Back to God When Everything is Pulling You Away. Christine really shared about getting to a stage in life where you know the cost of doing hard things, and doing hard work in the world and getting what you need to keep going. And I really, really appreciated her insights. We went in many directions, as ever, I'm very thrilled to share this with you today. My apologies for the glitchy audio, we were having a few internet connection un-reliabilities, and somehow, I recorded myself with the wrong microphone. So I know it sounds a little tinny and I'm sorry for that but I think it, it's still pretty good. So very excited to share this with you, my friends, here is the one and only Christine Caine. Christine, it is really an honor to connect, I've followed your work from a distance for quite a while. This is the first one of your books that I've actually sat down to read. But I've listened to sermons and I'm aware of you. And I've been I'm really thankful, obviously for the work that you do in the world. But I'm just honored and thankful to get to connect here quickly. So thank you for... Welcome to the show.
Christine Caine 02:27
Jonathan, I am pumped and like you know, born and raised in Australia, you're born in New Zealand. Now you're in Canada, we're part of the Commonwealth. I feel great.
Jonathan Puddle 02:35
That's it right. We've done... we've done the Pacific migration.
Christine Caine 02:38
That's it!
Jonathan Puddle 02:41
Do you ever get to this point? I mean, you're already on the West Coast. But, but I mean, when I... cause I have to fly to LA first before I get to New Zealand. And I have this point where I'm landing in LA. and I'm like, "Everything that I've just done, I have to do again, twice."
Christine Caine 02:55
Oh, yeah. Literally, well, why we even moved to America is because we were doing like 15 trips to Europe and 12 trips to America a year. And we thought, if we take that 14 hour commute out of, you know, our travel, it will be easy. I mean, when you've got 18 offices around the world, Sydney is not the best place to headquarters, it's so LA was just, made more sense in that it was one flight, kind of from Europe and down to South America. Still a long way to South Africa and to Asia. That was the good thing about living in Australia, our South African and Asian offices were a lot closer. But we've got a lot more European and Latin American offices and American offices. So basically, you've just got to decide it's a long way from anywhere when you're in Sydney. And Hamilton's even further.
Jonathan Puddle 03:41
That's it. I remember, when my wife and I first got married, we looked at a map, because my wife is very, very practical. Enneagram eight, kind of...
Christine Caine 03:49
Yes.
Jonathan Puddle 03:50
You was well?
Christine Caine 03:51
Yes, I am.
Jonathan Puddle 03:51
I got that sense, from some of your ways you self-described. So we looked at a map and we put "Okay, here's my work. Here's her work here, here are the bus lines, where's the most sensible place for us to find an apartment to live?"
Christine Caine 03:53
Yeah. She's my kind of woman, mate. My kind of woman.
Jonathan Puddle 04:08
We didn't look at neighborhood culture. We didn't look at anything. We just like, commute times. There's a certain logic to that for sure.
Christine Caine 04:16
There really is. It's like long term it's not great. But for short term, sort of mission-oriented work it makes a lot of sense.
Jonathan Puddle 04:23
Yeah. So So that's it, mission and having something to give. This book as I said, I haven't I haven't read your earlier works. I've read about them. I've skimmed through them. I used to run a Christian bookstore. So...
Christine Caine 04:39
Oh, my dream job, okay, go on. Yes.
Jonathan Puddle 04:43
So, you know, I'm like, Yeah, I've got a whole Christine Caine new-books-for-women kind of scenario. I read a lot of books for women, and it's actually kind of my guilty pleasure. I actually have a signed note from Beth Moore somewhere here because I told her that I love rebelliously learning from women. And so she sent me a Bible study.
Christine Caine 05:04
You must not read Paul, Jonathan, what on earth? What Bible are you reading?
Jonathan Puddle 05:10
This this book that I'm into now, it seems to me less of like, at first glance at least, less of like a overcomer message for everybody... it's like, it's like this is a book for people doing hard work.
Christine Caine 05:27
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 05:27
This is a book for people with with like mud and blood on their faces. And yet, of course, with each new chapter, I feel like you are unpacking these universal, really honest things: doubt, fear, exhaustion. In your own words, like what what is it that you've written? Why and for whom?
Christine Caine 05:47
For sure, and it is, everyone, I think if you look through and you go, okay, Chris Caine's written Undaunted, Unstoppable, Unashamed, you know, Unshakable, Unexpected, like very... books that are victorious, overcoming Christian life. This is that as well. What I realized, because I'm 55 this year, is that there is a component that I have taken for granted that I realized I need to communicate to a generation, that very much part of the victorious Christian life and the overcoming Christian life is to know how to navigate fear and doubt and suffering and pain. And the writer to the Hebrews says you will have need of endurance. And I'm thinking why at 55 am I still here? And there's a lot that are not still here. You know, we... a lot of us started together. When you live as long as I have, Jonathan, you know, you kind of remember everyone in our early 20s on altar calls, you know, "Here I am, Lord, send me" and we're all like, let's go charge hell with a water pistol, we're going to take the gospel to the uttermost parts of the earth. And when you're in Australia, you know, that sort of, we're going to the uttermost parts of the earth is really real to you because you're living in the uttermost parts of the earth. And then I thought, what has kept me going? And then, of course, five years ago, a perfect storm happened in my life. Now, this is not the first time this has happened. But this is the first time that I've communicated... now all of my books speak, I've been speaking about overcoming abuse for 30 odd years, when nobody was even mentioning the word abuse, I was talking about it in the early 90s. And have throughout my whole Christian life, because that's so much of my story. I was left in a hospital unnamed and unwanted, I was a survivor of sexual abuse—12 years of my early childhood—I was the victim of abuse, marginalization coming from a Greek family in, in Australia that was extremely racist and prejudiced in the 70s and 80s, and, you know, 90s. And so, of course, growing up in a Greek Orthodox household where to be a woman was, you know, all you could do was get married and have kids. So it's kind of like, tick the box: woman, you know, ethnicity, abuse, like all of the, all of the things. And so all of my both preaching, writing, communicating, has always been grounded in reality. Like, you know, people go, "Oh, my gosh, look what she's doing, you know, running a global anti trafficking organization, running a women's empowerment organization." But all of it has always been rooted and grounded in the fact that there's been a lot of trauma to overcome, there's been a lot of pain, a lot of suffering. The difference with this book is, I have led out with that, so it's not missed. And I think what what may have happened in some of the other books, is the overcoming story is so strong, that the struggle, the pain, the dark nights of the soul that I have had to go, cycle through probably every seven years or so I would say in my Christian life, without a doubt. Because of the size of so many of the things that we've accomplished, some of that may... Well, two things, I'm not sure that it has been lost because hurting people have always connected with me, no matter how strong I might seem, I've always had hurting people. I think the changes in the world in the last five years, and particularly the last 18 months, have given people ears to hear in a way that they haven't heard in the past. I think that and that's why already I mean, the book's only been out a few days. I cannot even begin to tell you the responses that I've had. And I'm thinking in some ways I'm like, I've actually been saying a lot of this stuff for 35 years. I'm realizing that people are hearing it almost like for the very first time but also because I lead out with a story of my perfect storm five years ago. You know, a lot of loss, my my mother died, my sister in law who was my age, one of my husband's sisters, one of my husband's brother in law's you know, back and forth to Australia for funerals, and then, of course my mother dying triggered a lot of pain for me, to do with my biological mother, who I don't know, my adopted mom, so all of that came to the fore, at the same time as experiencing a personal betrayal in a friendship. And, you know, David wrote in the Psalms, "It would have been easy, if it was my friend that was against me but"... my enemy, I'm sorry, "if my enemy rose up against me. But when it was my friend that I went to the house of the Lord with..." and I think a lot of us, in the last four or five years have experienced incredible fractures in relationships in ways we hadn't before. So I think that's resonating with people, or just the, you know, challenge of leading... I've got, you know, we have 21 offices in 15 nations, we have 20 offices but in 15 countries around the world, we lead three churches in another three countries. So you've got hundreds of staff in 18 countries, there's always some crisis happening somewhere, that's just inevitably the part of leadership. I think in it all that, I don't know if you remember Jonathan, coming in the end of 2016, coming into 2017 2018, it was a very volatile time here in America politically, socially, morally. I mean, unless you've got amnesia and slept through that season, it was a very volatile season. If you're any kind of public figure, then the fact is, someone's not going to be happy with you. You've got one group going, "You're saying too much about XYZ," then you've got another group saying, "You are not saying enough about the same XYZ,", then you've got another group saying, "You should be saying nothing about XYZ." And so you're kind of waking up every morning... so you're trying to process your own stuff that's going on. And you know, I'm a wife and a mother in the midst of all of that, just life, my kids, my marriage. And then you've got a whole lot of people, and you know, large numbers of people with incredible expectations of what you should be doing and how you should be doing it. And that is, when I hit that moment of going, I might just take my foot off the gas. Like, you know, let me go and buy a taverna in Santorini, I'm Greek, you know, it's my first language. My husband and I, we've got a kid going to college, let's just go buy a taverna in Santorini, let me serve people baklava, talked about Jesus, one on one as I watched the sunset over the caldera, and just, you know, cruise my way into heaven. And this was the deal, Jonathan, and I mean, I was, I'm laughing now because on this side of it, but I was not laughing then as is obvious in the book I talk about, very honestly, the panic attack that I had the, you know, a lot of the physiological reactions that I had to... so much that was going on, emotionally and spiritually. And, you know, I remember thinking, there is so little discernment currently, in the body of Christ, there's so much division and chaos, nobody would even really know that I took my foot off the gas. I would just like, as long as I don't go and do anything really dramatically, majorly, you know, as long as I...
Jonathan Puddle 12:53
As long as you don't do any of the recognized things...
Christine Caine 12:55
The big five sins, if I don't commit the big sins. Yeah. And if I don't post a deconstruction story on Instagram, and say I've walked away from Jesus, if I if I just don't do those things, and just, you know, I'm going to be okay, I've got enough momentum with 35 years of following Jesus and all the organizations that I've built, that it'll be about a decade before maybe somebody kind of goes, "You know, where'd she go? She's just sort of like, like she was." And I just remember, in the midst of all of my tears, I mean, I'm laughing with you now, but there was nothing and the book is not laughing. It's very real. There was, I just turned to my husband and went, how did I get here? Like, it's just like, you know, there are, of all people, you know, I've always kind of like been, I'm on the frontlines. And how did I get to a point where I would, very seriously like not in any joking way, very seriously contemplate taking my foot off the gas and going, it's just a little bit too hard at this level. And it was, it was the beginning like of another dark night of the soul, which for me, lasted very much all of 2017, all of 2018 by the time we got to 2020 I was ready to lead. Everyone will probably be reading this going, "But she was so strong in the pandemic, and we saw her online every day. And she's..." Yes, because I went through... it's like I went through my 2017-2018 dark night of the soul. Am I prepared again, to deny myself, take up my cross and follow Him? Because that was really the call to discipleship at a deeper level, at another level. Am I willing, at 50 plus years old, in my second half of life, instead of putting taking my foot off the gas? Am I prepared? Is this thing worth it? Is Jesus real? Is this whole deal that I have spent my whole life building, do I still believe it's real enough? That in my second half, I'm willing to go whatever it costs, whatever work I have to do internally, whatever the price is publicly... because, you know, it's not, it's not cool to be a Jesus follower, particularly in the West in, you know, the 21st century to, and to have, like me a more sort of very historical, orthodox, traditional Christian worldview that in some circles is considered dangerous, in other circles it's considered bigoted. In other circles, it's considered purely stupid, like, "How on earth could you believe that sort of thing?" So it's like, wow, am I up for that? Or can I just kind of ring the bell? And just go, I had a really good run for 35 years. "Tag." Let me hand the baton to your generation, Jonathan, you all can work this out. Have a nice life. I'm going to Santorini. So that was kind of the "How did I get here?" moment? There are, there are like 17 questions I would love to ask you, and we're not going to have time for all of them. So I'm trying to like triage in my head. How do you discern? Because I feel like if you, if you'd rang the bell, and gone to Santorini, clearly, at least in my mind, God's love and grace for you is unaffected. Absolutely.
Jonathan Puddle 16:13
You are the beloved as much as you ever were, regardless of what you work for. How do you discern, when it's the difference between a season of rest, even Sabbath, the need to heal real trauma? Because I think our culture often has just said, push harder, harder, harder, harder.
Christine Caine 16:31
Right.
Jonathan Puddle 16:32
But that's not what you're saying?
Christine Caine 16:34
No!
Jonathan Puddle 16:35
How do you tell the difference between where God is saying, like, "Would you get into the trenches with me?" versus even where maybe there is spiritual abuse happening? And, and because I've seen that too, where where people think they're giving themselves sacrificially, but actually, their personhood is being degraded.
Christine Caine 16:53
No, and I totally agree with you there and I hear that 100%. And again, of course, all this, there has to be a great disc... there has to be great discernment. And there has to be a sensitivity to the leading of the Holy Spirit, and some really good counsel around you. Because there is definitely time to, a time to say "I'm out. Of this. This is abusive, this is destructive, there is no way God would want me in this situation where I'm being dehumanized in every way." So I don't want anyone to hear what I'm not saying. So that that is extremely important. But in this case, mine wasn't like a drivenness. And truly, at my age and stage, I'm going to be 55 this year, by God's grace, I've had the opportunity to see God do a lot of things all over the world, I've had the privilege of preaching in dozens and dozens and dozens of countries all over the world. I've been leading one of the largest anti trafficking organizations in the world and a women's empowerment organization. So I'm not here going, what else can I do for God? You know? There's... maybe if I was in my 20s, and 30s, there would be this like, "Lord..." you know, I'm kind of like, you know what, I'm, that's not my thing. My thing, ahhh... and it's not, it shouldn't be anyone's thing. The issue is always faithfulness, I think that's what I'm trying to say here. Am I... what... what does faithfulness look like for me at this age and stage? Because I could coast, and nobody would know. And it would be what, but what is the Lord asking of me? Is this a time where he's saying,"I need you to dig deeper, Chris, because I've got more for you, whatever that might mean."? I'm not looking for building anything else. although it may, it may become that. But it's, "I want to do more in you. And then through you. And the in you means not leaving, not tapping out. Not going to Santorini. Yes, I will love you. Yes, we will see a lot of beautiful sunsets." But there needs to be I think we're in a season and I'm more of a elder and a mother in the faith now. So as a mother in the faith going, Okay. You know, Paul wrote, teachers, you have many fathers, and I'm just going to superimpose mothers. You know, that mothers you don't... And I'm thinking, Okay, in terms of my burden for the church, which I do have, which is why I'm so grieved at so much of the injustice that we've seen and the sexism and misogyny and the abuse and the racism, it grieves my heart. But as a mother in the house, what, what do I believe that the Lord's asking of me? Is he asking me to go to Santorini and, you know, enjoy my belovedness, or to this one thing I do, forgetting those things that lie behind, I press on, determined to lay a hold of all of that for which Christ Jesus has led a hold of me. And it's a subtle thing. And at my age, it's not that I've got a whole lot of role models that kept going and finished strong. The finish line is closer to me than the starting line. So I'm trying to look at where are the 60 year olds and 70 year olds and 80 if they're still alive, 90... because only, you know, 1% of the world's population lives to be over 80. I happen to live in part of the world where that 1% lives. So I'm looking around going, Okay, who at 80 is still... because that's closer to me then 30 years. So who at 80 is, is still loving Jesus, serving Jesus wholeheartedly, wanting to finish their race, being able to say like the Apostle Paul, I have run my race, I have finished my course. I, you know, I'm, I'm waiting for the prize. I want to have some crowns to cast before his feet, I want some eternal rewards. I mean, I'm thinking that stuff a lot more... I've set my mind on things above more than on things below. So that you start to really think about, do I really believe this stuff about heaven? Do I really believe this stuff about eternity? What do I really think about eternal rewards? What do I and what does that mean, in terms of my belovedness? Knowing that I am loved as much now as I ever will be? So how do I reconcile that with fulfilling all of the good works, that I believe that God prepared for me before I ever got here to do that? So for me, this issue here was more of an issue of trusting God deeper than doing more for God. Although what the result of it will seem to the outside world is that I'm doing more for God. Did, do you know what I mean? Sure. The issue at stake is fruitfulness. So abiding... so can I abide with Jesus in Santorini? Absolutely. As much as I can, doing what I'm doing in the midst of my work, but in my case, was... is abiding with him the responsibility, the courage, the tenacity, the resilience to go deeper? And allow more fruit to be produced, which meant a deeper level of crushing. And it was, I think it... when you get to my age, you know the cost. So I knew, and I think that was what was at stake. Like, I know this is not an issue of, I've got to bear through this because, you know, there's another great achievement. It's like, "Am I willing to be crushed, so that more oil is produced, that will lead to greater fruitfulness?" And I didn't know if I wanted to. That was the thing is, it wasn't a matter of could I? It was, I don't know if I want to. I had never gotten to that place. I had never been in that place with Jesus. I'd been to plenty of places where I didn't know if I could. Definitely. Don't know if I've got the ability, the courage, the resources... plenty of times in my three and a half decades, I've gone through there. I hadn't been to a place of, "I don't think I want to, because I know how much this is gonna hurt and what it's going to cost." So I, I... my bigger issue with him was, was I really a disciple before all of this? I don't know, like you know, I was but it was it was more of those questions that I was having.
Jonathan Puddle 21:30
Sure. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think I think in a sense, ideally, that's the love trajectory, right? Where at any moment you look back and go, man, I had no idea who I thought Jesus was until this moment. Right, right. Two anecdotes, and then a question. My wife's grandmother is 100 years old. She loves the Lord. She still drives herself to church (COVID lockdown notwithstanding), she lives alone, cooks for herself, and spends most of her day napping or reading the Bible. She's Spirit-filled. She was anointed by Kathryn Kuhlman, and...
Christine Caine 23:43
I need to get her to lay hands on me!
Jonathan Puddle 23:44
Right, right. I know...
Christine Caine 23:45
I want her to lay hands on me!
Jonathan Puddle 23:46
Every time I get to spend time with her I do. And she's, you know, she's, she's a picture of quiet faithfulness. Second anecdote. I grew up in the Toronto Blessing. That's my lineage. I'm close friends with John and Carol Arnott. I could tell you that Carol, in her mid 70s is still growing, is still pursuing healing for her own life, and visits a therapist and gets EMDR. Like, this is someone who is pressing in for more, who says like, if there's one lesson of the Charismatic revival, it's "There's more than we thought." And she continues to press in. And so I love that, there are those pictures.
Christine Caine 24:36
Yes.
Jonathan Puddle 24:37
Of folks, like you said, but but that there's a narrowing of the funnel, so to speak. But I love I love that. So, OK, you lay out these warning posts, I guess, through as the sort of structures of the chapter, signs that we could look for that maybe we are losing the fire and maybe that we don't even realize. I think, I think maybe that's your point is that it's like, if this is happening, maybe there's a broader thing that you haven't called out, you know, praying versus complaining. hungering versus gorging—which felt like very called out right now, in the midst of COVID, if you were to look at my waistline,
Christine Caine 25:18
Everyone's added a few pounds, yeah, exactly.
Jonathan Puddle 25:21
Trust versus control. How did you land on some of those particular kind of markers?
Christine Caine 25:29
Yeah, a lot of that was thinking, "Okay, Chris, you come into your mid 50s. And at the end of the day, having done all else, by the grace of God, you're still standing. So what what would you melt it all down to?" And it's and I didn't want it to become a list of do's and don'ts. But we have to be checking markers, if we're not going to drift. If the writer to the Hebrews says, you know, therefore, we also must pay much closer attention, especially in the day in which we're living because the currents are shifting in every realm, politically, socially, morally, environmentally, ethically, sociologically, I mean that the currents are shifting at such a rate, you can either stick your head in the sand at my age and ignore it, but I have a 15 year old and a 19 year old, so the Lord has made sure I cannot ignore it. So it's in my face. And of course, the future is in my face, I care very deeply about the future of the church and the next generation, so I can't stick my head in the sand. I could if I wanted to, but you know, my dad used to say when he took us swimming, he'd put up a big beach umbrella and a lot of beach towels along the sand. And he'd say to us kids, "Check the markers. These are your markers. When you're out there swimming, I need you to check these markers very regularly, because you're not going to realize it that the currents are moving underneath all the time. And if you don't check these markers, you will drift." And I remember he used to always say the phrase, "All you have to do to drift is nothing." That's it. And as I've been watching, so much of the what...,you know, drifting, I've seen it in marriages, I've seen it in families, I've seen it in friendships. I've seen it in terms of pursuing your call. I've watched it as I watch people deconstruct their faith and some walk away from Jesus, you know, not only church but Jesus himself. And I've thought, what, where does that drift start? Because you don't just wake up one day and go, Okay, today I'm posting that I'm leaving church, and I'm, you know, leaving everything. There was a drift that started somewhere. And somewhere, we stopped checking our markers. And so I thought, okay, Chris, even 55 you've had many dark nights of the soul, experienced a lot of pain and a lot of suffering. I have, I have a strong faith. I, I really look through the lens of the resurrection, it's very much how I see my preaching, my teaching. The the lens I bring to my reading of the Bible is a resurrection lens. It's a very Spirit-filled lens. It but to me, it's I... that does not mean I deny the reality that in this world, you will have trials. I do not deny the reality of Peter saying you know that, "Do not be surprised when you experience fiery trials." Like I was not freaking out with the pandemic. I'm like, well, do not be surprised. Here we are. I'm not yet at the level of if... I haven't evolved to where James is, "Consider it pure joy. You know," I'm like James. James, you can consider it...
Jonathan Puddle 28:31
James.
Christine Caine 28:31
I'm not there yet. But you know, I'm just... I'm on a journey. And so, the fact is that I realize, pain... I mean, honestly, I have been involved on the frontlines for 14 years of rescuing the victims of human trafficking. You know, I have seen the most horrific evil that humanity is capable of... I have children in our care, you know, we've put traffickers in jail and had them sentenced for 300 plus years because of the atrocities of their crimes. So there is nothing in me that is in denial about the reality of evil or suffering or pain from even what I've gone through. I've been, you know, seeing therapists for years. I haven't, I've... all of my teaching is very process-oriented. I'm all about go on an altar call, get hands laid on you AND go to five years of therapy, simultaneously.
Jonathan Puddle 29:23
Come on.
Christine Caine 29:23
None of these things are contradictory, for me they are all two sides of the same coin. I have a very both-and Christianity. Faith, you know, faith and works, spirit and truth, evangelism and justice. I have a very, I've always been that person. So a lot of the things that are polarizing the church, I just think, "What a waste of time." Like it's...
Jonathan Puddle 29:44
That's why we like you, Christine.
Christine Caine 29:44
It's just two sides of the same coin. I... who could waste your Twitter life arguing about that stuff. So anyway, there you go. So I'm more about let's just get about the Father's business and they'll sort it out eventually. So even coming in with all my resurrection, full Spirit, you know, there's nothing cessationist about me, I'm going to totally believe for your healing while you're having chemotherapy, and I believe both can happen somewhere simultaneously, I'm all about all of it. And you know that I had, you know, thyroid cancer, and I'm getting hands laid on me, I'm having bottles of olive oil thrown on me, and I'm in surgery while they're taking it out. So awesome, all of it, and God can use whatever he wants. So, that kind of lens and that holistic approach. It's still, I still think as I'm watching the deconstruction happening, I'm watching people drift. I still think I'm very committed to... if I boiled it all down, I think this is what it comes down to: Should we be checking the markers of our spiritual practices? You know, whatever, you feel more comfortable calling them spiritual disciplines, spiritual practices, we have so thrown the baby out with the bathwater, I'm liking, I'm going prayer really does matter. As people wondering, does God even hear? Does it really matter? So would that be a marker? Well, yes, I'm tending to think if you are tweeting more than you're talking to God, there's... there must be, there's something wrong, I would just check my heart. Am I drifting? If I've thrown out the Bible, because I'm not really sure about the Genesis origin story, and I really don't like the genocide in Judges and I cannot understand the the rape narratives, and I'm not sure what I feel about what Paul's saying about women like, so does that mean, I stop reading this book, or I self select? So I'm going, you know, that's a marker. I would really be looking at that kind of thing. Because of the abuse in the racism and the misogyny and some of the historical, really bad practices, the Inquisition, and you know, the things that we've seen in church life, does that mean, that church itself is just irrelevant anymore? So I'm like, you know what this is a marker. Let's talk about it, let's not sugar coat it, but I would think, after 35 years to check. When I start controlling things, and I'm trying to control my brand and control my image and build my platform and all this dangerous language we have about where we have made, turned a calling into a career. How do you use modern methodology, modern communication? Modern... maybe I'm drifting if some of my heart's gotten off track, if a blue check matters more than a heart check, you know. And so, as I'm trying to navigate what is happening in our world, when I'm looking at my daughters and going, what, what markers do I need to say to them, "Check this, because the currents are shifting!" And if you're not checking some of these things, and they're true and tried, they haven't really changed. When I, I read the word, I'm like, you know at the end of the day, pretty much Old Testament through to New, it really, you could boil it all down, there's not that many things you need to be checking. So some of the issues of the day come and go. And I don't want you to walk away from God because of current issues. Because these current issues five years from now are not going to be current issues, there's going to be a whole bunch of new current issues. So if we can get our markers, right, we will navigate the issues and... but if our markers are not right, which tend to have a whole lot more to do with your inner world than our external world, then you are not going to make... you're going to drift. I don't care if you've been in church and you're having a quiet time every day for the last 40 years, you will drift if, if we are not checking the right markers. So that's really, you know, there's nothing sexy about them. There's nothing like like, no one's going to go, "Oh, wow, I never thought of this." But I think there will be some heart checks in the timeliness of going, "Oh, wow, I probably should start thinking about this a whole lot more than I am right now. Because I thought all of this was irrelevant." Because of so much of the chaos and the division and the just the misappropriation of so many of these things and the legalism we attached to so many of these things. So if we could take the legalism out, and put the life back into some of these markers, and put the Holy Spirit back in rather than rules and regulations. We will see that there is a reason why for the last 2000 years, followers of Jesus have considered a lot of these things, putting their own language or their own spin on it, have been the things that have at the end of the day, been their anchor and kept them from drifting. That's so good. I love, I love all of this and I love all of the things that make you, you. It is just wonderful. So my, my next question is somewhat of a selfish question. You know, you've got... I can, I can hear and I can see in some of your work some of this Orthodox theology, which has been very, very life giving, for me, more sacramental theology has been very helpful for me. It's, it's, I think, balanced out areas of my Charismatic theology that were... needed some strengthening. With all of your diverse backgrounds and passions that, you now, you write books, you're on Christian American television, how do you stay Christine? How do you remain authentically yourself and to the Spirit, while having to communicate and talk in all these languages that everybody just you know, requires? Part of it is, um, you know, I always laugh, the scripture says, humble yourself in the sight of the Lord. You know, if you don't humble yourself, the Lord has a really good job of keeping you very, very humble. So let me just say that I live with me. And I'm profoundly aware of many of my Achilles heels and brokenness. But Jon, I would say, part of my own life experience, and really, most of my Christianity is, it's an overflow of Jesus met me, so dramatically in broken places. There is nothing polished about my life, like I, and here is the greatest gift, I maintain this, I got saved when there was no such thing as an internet. I got saved when there was no such thing as a social media. I'm old, I'm like with the dinosaurs. So when I say this, all I can say I got saved. So there was no thought of a Christian career, like whatever that might mean. And there was nothing cool about being saved in Australia, where less than 2% of the population goes to church. There is no sort of Christian industry subculture, you couldn't get rich being a Christian because there was no, there wasn't enough people to buy your books to make you... there wasn't, there was no and when I was growing up in Australia, there was no Christian television network, there was no Christian... like the American Christian subculture industry, it didn't exist. And nobody thought you were cool for being a Christian, in Australia. So that was not the deal. But I also came from a staunchly Greek Orthodox background. So what you've got is, I am a bit of a everything because I, I grew up 18 years in the Orthodox Church. So that's when people sort of see a liturgical sacramental kind of thing. I'm 18 years of Greek Orthodox, and that I lead churches and run organizations in countries that are very Orthodox and very Catholic, Latin America, Italy, Spain, you know, Greece, Ukraine. So I'm navigating, I'm working with the church in all of those countries. So that's just in me. I went to a Pentecostal church for three decades, so there's that side of me. And I'm at Wheaton College now, doing a Masters. So welcome to the American Evangelical whatever you want to call that, whatever this thing is that I'm in there. So it's, that's the breadth of kind of the church. Now the global perspective is when you lead an organization in 18 countries, and you've preached in almost 100, you... that is just what I do. So I bring all of that into the the very thing that I have done least is been in the American Evangelical bubble. So that that was like a new world to me, like, what is this? Because... so all of these were gifts, that this is the last thing I came into. That all the other stuff is what shaped and frame me, first.
Jonathan Puddle 38:53
We'll take a quick pause so I can thank all of my patrons. Much, much love to every one of you who chips in to the show, monthly, annually, with one time gifts. All of you folks are such an encouragement to me. I love the dialogue and the discussion, the comments you post. It's really wonderful to stay connected with you all. Thank you to everybody who makes this show possible. And thank you to everyone also who's bought my book in the last year. It's been such a wild ride, hearing the stories of how God is encountering you in these pages as I walk you through my journey of how I learned to love myself. So if you don't have my book, it's called You Are Enough: Learning to Love Yourself the Way God Loves You. And it's available in all major platforms as well as now audiobooks on Audible and iTunes and everywhere else. So go grab that, jonathanpuddle.com if you're looking for that information. Head over to Patreon if you want to become a supporter of the show, patreon.com/JonathanPuddle. If you want to give a one time gift, you can go to jonathanpuddle.com/support. Thanks so much, everybody. Love you all. Back to the show.
Christine Caine 40:05
And then because the Lord... base... the Lord, there was no internet, I had to learn how to hear from the Holy Spirit. And you're in the back of Australia, in country towns like Dubbo, and Narrandera, and Tamworth where that nobody's, no one hears, you know, New York, London, Paris, Dubbo. Who's heard of that? And so I've seen the Holy Spirit work, you know, in in country towns in Australia—nobody can ever take that from me. I have seen God heal bodies, I have seen mine restored, I have seen literal, like people saved, out of darkness into light. Like, you cannot take that away from me. It wasn't on Instagram, Instagram didn't exist. Facebook didn't exist. It was country towns in the back of nowhere, not just for one year or two years, or three years, or four years or five. So you've got decades, a decade of that before, probably 15 years of that before I ever even went on... social media got invented. So you can't take that away from me. And then apart from that, and what most importantly, what Jesus has done in my own life. I mean, when I got saved, I was in a Greek Orthodox home. My family didn't speak to me for three years, there was nothing cool about this, it was, it cost me everything. I was not allowed to take meals with my family. They sent the Archbishop of Athens and the Archbishop of Sydney to put me in six weeks of debrainwashing classes because, of course, to become, you know, a follower of Jesus, to go to a Protestant church was like anathema from where... to be water baptized, is like the unforgivable sin. That is like blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It was like, well, I got water baptized... I mean, it was because when you're baptized as an infant, you know, you, as a Greek Orthodox, water baptism is... adult imersion is a huge thing. So it was... there was nothing cool about it. I mean, that was that I didn't put that on Instagram with a filter. Because there was no internet. It was... my family stopped talking to me. My cousins were not allowed to come. So I met Jesus, that's what I could say to you. It's like I met Jesus. It cost me everything. I left my very successful job to go to Bible College, everyone thought I was a loser. It was and it was no prestigious seminary. It was like a Pentecostal Bible college that everybody laughed, at all the established... So all the people now that applaud me and think I'm awesome, I'm like you didn't even talk to me 20 years ago. I was like, the the dumb immigrant, Pentecostal uneducated, ex... only the experience Christian, you know. Now, you all want me everywhere, so you can't play the game. Because it's like, what do you mean, like you didn't even... you all used to probably have voodoo dolls of me and stick pins in me, because I was like, Oh, my gosh, she's Pentecostal and a preacher and a woman and ordained, oh, my goodness, she is everything we don't want. And now I'm like, now you all want me which... but I think I could do it from a real, a spirit of service. And I, I, I don't need their approval, because I never had it, which means that... there's not an angry spirit in me. I don't want you to hear that. It means I can actually serve. So when I'm brought in, I can do my God assignment. Because when I wanted their approval, God made sure I never got it. So I learned to get from God, what I needed to get from him. So now I can be, by the grace of God, all things to all men so that by this some will be saved. And I can fulfill my assignment because I don't need anything from the environments I go into. And so I don't need affirmation, I don't need approval, I don't need significance, I can fulfill my assignment. And I don't think you can truly serve unless you've been in anonymity and obscurity, where God can take that stuff out of you. And, you know, David was anointed at 16 but he wasn't appointed to be king of Israel until he was in his late 30s. So there was 20 years and 20 chapters of the Bible between anointing and appointing, and a lot of that was in caves, dodging spears. We forget that. What happens in this generation is you're anointed today, and you put a Instagram post tomorrow, and you've got to filter on it, and you've got a hashtag #futurekingofIsrael. I'm so glad that David didn't take a selfie after Samuel anointed him, #futurekingofIsrael, because there was still 20 years to go. And there was still you know, the next day, he's back out in the field. And that, you know, and then he's playing a harp in the palace, he's not the king of the palace, people would think you're a loser. And so he had to learn the protocol of the palace. And then he had to learn how to trust God, and he had to learn to go from shepherd boy to king, and that was 20 years! I think the gift that God gave me, as painful as it was, was that I had years, decades in anonymity and obscurity, where God was developing me and because I'm older, I was developed more like a roll of film. Not like an Instagram post. We do snap and upload, put our filter on there... I was, you know, back to the old school, you had a roll of film, you put it in an envelope, you took it to Walgreens, you didn't even see it for two weeks, it went through a process in a darkroom. And then you pray to God, when you got the film that, back that you actually took photos of something and not your feet. And then you kind of,
Jonathan Puddle 45:20
Thumbs and...
Christine Caine 45:22
yeah, that's the whole thing. And then you... And so you that that process in the darkroom and all the chemical processes that goes through, you make sure you never open that door and put any light on that roll of film beforehand, or you would expose the negative. But nowadays, there's none of that process happening. So if the light that is on you is greater than the light that is within you, it will destroy you, which is why we see so many shooting stars and not enough lighthouses because it's being exposed because you haven't allowed the light of Christ to be formed in you. So when you say, Chris, how do you? And um, I think your question was, you know, how do you stay humble, whatever that might mean is. You know, the television, I didn't even think about that. I don't even think about my Instagram thing, I don't think about... I just think how am I communicating the gospel? And I think if you holistically look through the, the breadth of what I teach... there's, there's nothing like there's no snappy little five series on 10 steps to your best life. It's basically die, take up your cross, follow Jesus. It's basically you know, my Instagram post is gonna continually lead you to Jesus, as much as I invite you into my life, my family, it's more... I want you to imitate me only to the degree that I imitate Christ. And I just cannot, I'm not going to give you a gimmick to keep following me. It's just not... I'm too old. That's not going to be the case. I have an... I have a fear of the Lord, which is the beginning of wisdom, not a scared but a healthy fear, he's God and I'm not. And I know what this is about, is that I'm signposts to him. And that and even as I increasingly get older, that awareness of I must decrease and he must increase. Now what does it mean to decrease when you're very well known? What does it mean to decrease when you have millions of followers? What does it mean to degreese, decrease when you're talking to millions of people a day through technology? Someone said to me very early on, Christine, just always remember, the same amount of people that God allows you to help is the same amount of people that you can hurt. So be very, very careful with what you do. Be very very... I'm very mindful. So I have certain constraints on me, spiritually speaking, I mean. Like, so... I don't just say anything, I want to say. I don't just do anything I want to do, there's a lot of things I say nothing about, not because I don't have an opinion, but I'm not my own ambassador. I'm very mindful of... I'm not trying to protect a brand, or whatever that is, that's gonna burn up. Everyone's gonna see how much platforms and brands are going to burn up, on that day. And I've encountered Jesus and Jesus has brought me through so much brokenness, and so much trauma. So when you say, Chris, how have you stayed orthodox? I couldn't not. Because, because of my own journey, and my own lived experience, and as much as in some ways, it would be easier to just go, "Ya'll, I want to be inclusive in a whole lot of other ways. I want to...." but my own journey of sexual brokenness, my own journey of, of just so much confusion when I was younger about my own gender identity, and so much of the pain I've walked through relationally, and the healing I've had through my relationship with Jesus. I would be—in my own lived experience—I would be lying to myself, and to everyone else, if I didn't continue to stay true to a Biblical sexual ethic because—in my case—it brought healing and wholeness into my life. So there are a lot of those things that even over, you know, working through abuse, and of course, I've still got triggers and I'm not so holy... so healed this side of eternity that I don't need Jesus every single day. There's always deeper layers, but the the truth of the gospel and and the truth of a resurrected savior and the Word of God itself, bringing healing into my life? All those things are what have helped keep me where I'm at.
Jonathan Puddle 49:39
Mhmmm... thank you for sharing that. I feel like a wise person has set me up well, for the next little bit. Christine, would you pray for us?
Christine Caine 49:52
I would love... it would be my honor, Jonathan. Father, I thank you. I thank you for Jonathan. I thank you for his faithfulness to you. I thank you for this podcast, Lord. I thank you for every single person that is listening to this. This is going to end up in people's ears years from now. And I just believe that it's going to hit the right person at the right time, Father, with the right message. There are so many people that are wondering, so many people that are deconstructing, so many people that have been hurt. So many people just working all this stuff out. Holy Spirit, I pray in this moment, that you would do what only you can do. You know I gave up trying to be you decades ago because I did a really lousy job of trying to change anyone's mind or trying to heal anyone. Only you can do that Holy Ghost, so I pray that you would go deep into people's hearts, deep into people's souls, and do what only you can do. Be real to people, that that's my prayer and that's what I asked that you in a way that is meaningful to the person on the other side of this voice, you would be real where they just could not deny the reality of your presence, your palpable presence in their life. And Lord, in your presence is the fullness of joy, in your presence is healing and wholeness and redemption. So do what only you can do, I pray Holy Ghost. In Jesus' name. Amen, Lord, Amen.
Jonathan Puddle 51:33
Amen. Thank you, Christine. Oh, you guys, that was such a privilege. Such a special time. As you could tell, she was so warm, so friendly. We had a bunch of just chatting off air before and after we recorded. And I was just really touched by her genuineness and her warmth. So go and click the shownotes, JonathanPuddle.com/podcast, go grab a copy of her new book, How Did I Get Here?: Finding Your Way Back to God When Everything is Pulling You Away. And as we discussed, she really leads into it with a trauma lens and an understanding of real pain and suffering in our lives. And how to ensure that those things don't derail us. So I found it was a very empowering message. I really enjoyed it. And rooted in real honesty about the realities of life. I really, really enjoyed that point where she said, you know, the changes in the last 18 months, changes in the world in the last 18 months, have given people ears to hear things maybe they didn't hear before. Looking forward to discussing this in much greater depth on The Puddcast B-Side, which will be recorded very shortly and will be available to my patrons. So if you want to hear backstory, and my real thoughts on this interview with Christine along with that of my friends who will chat about it, that'll be on Patreon very soon. Also just wanted to make highlight once more of last week's episode with Christina Dent, where we talked about the war on drugs and the harm that the current approach to drug legislation is causing, all around the world. And Christina helped me see in a new way, that if we really care about healing and helping people get free of their drug addictions and helping the families terribly impacted by drug addiction, we need to change our approach. So I would highly recommend you go and check out last week's episode of The Puddcast, "Rethinking the War on Drugs, with Christina Dent." It has left a very lasting impression in my mind, my wife's mind, Maija joined me to do the B-Side. And yeah, it... yeah, like I am chewing over this and trying to figure out how to be a better advocate for some of the most vulnerable in our community. All right, my friends. That's it. We will be back in a couple of months. I'm going to rest and recoup and get back into writing. So lots of new things coming down the pipe, excited to share them with you all later on. Grace and peace, health, safety and joy to you over the next few months. And I look forward to talking to you again soon.