#139: Sabbatical Reflections | "Love is Working"
After a year-long hiatus, The Puddcast is back with episode 139! Tryphena and I share some heartfelt reflections on my family’s six-month sabbatical to New Zealand, England, Greece, and Finland. I unpack some unexpected discoveries I made about identity, intuition, and the importance of family and cultural roots. We reflect on the diversity of global faith traditions, the impact of stepping outside the North American bubble, and the recognition of humanity's inherent goodness and love.
Now available in video at youtube.com/jonathanpuddle. You can support me and my work, or join my Patreon community, at jonathanpuddle.com/support.
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Chapters in this Episode
00:00 Welcome Back to The Puddcast!
00:21 Why We Took a Break
01:29 Jonathan’s Sabbatical Journey
02:51 Returning Home
04:01 The Joys and Challenges of Being Back
10:01 Reflections on Sabbatical
20:19 Financial and Emotional Rollercoaster
24:38 Reflections on Aging and Identity
25:47 Emotional Experiences in Church
28:08 Global Church Perspectives
34:34 The False Binaries of North American Culture
43:30 Finnish Mustard
51:18 The Evolution of Human Consciousness
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Transcription
[00:00:00] Jonathan: Well, hey, friends, guess who's back. We're back!.
[00:00:13] Tryphena: Back again. We are back.
[00:00:15] Jonathan: this is like, I suppose, uh, episode 139 of The Puddcast. It's been a while.
[00:00:23] Tryphena: Really, really has.
[00:00:24] Jonathan: We put the show on pause. Let me, let me find out when. Let me say information that's factual. June, 2023. So that is, that is a year and a bit. Uh, and we did that for a few reasons.
[00:00:38] Jonathan: One, my family needed to create some margin. And We had a bunch of things kind of down the pipe coming down the pipe that we weren't really sure about. And so while I love this show, and I've loved these conversations with Tryphena and I love all of you and your encouragement, I needed to create some space to discern and see what was next. And I feel like you're you're like, Oh, margin. Is that what we've been doing?
[00:01:06] Tryphena: I'm like discerning what's next. Do you know what's next? Um, yes, margin. Our family needed to create margin as well. If we can't just like sense all of the sarcasm dripping off of that. Yeah, I can't believe it's been a year.
[00:01:24] Jonathan: Yeah, a year and, and, and more, uh, 15 months or so.
[00:01:28] Tryphena: Mm hmm.
[00:01:29] Jonathan: And then, uh, and then my family went on sabbatical for six months,
[00:01:33] Tryphena: I was just,
[00:01:34] Jonathan: which I think is like,
[00:01:36] Tryphena: by the time you were gone.
[00:01:37] Jonathan: yes, we were gone, gone. And I think that was so much of a bigger prep than we had been thinking about. Uh, it, you know, to be gone for six months, to travel three or four different countries and to. rent out our house and find a place for our dog. All the things! Took probably 6 months to prepare for.
[00:02:02] Tryphena: Mm hmm.
[00:02:03] Jonathan: and so As soon as we hit pause on the show, I was like, oh, thank God. This was the right thing to do. And then we got about getting ready to go. And then we went and actually went. And were in New Zealand for three months and we were in England for a week, one son and I went to Greece for a week, and then all of us wrapped up in Finland for another two months where we connected with family of all kinds, and cousins, and people from Canada came over and met us in Finland.
[00:02:39] Tryphena: Mm hmm.
[00:02:40] Jonathan: and Maija had the time of her life, like, with cousins she's grown up with that have never been able to visit in Finland and hang out together at the same time. It was like a dream come true in so many ways. And then we came home and have spent the last two months trying to figure out who we are, what we're doing. And I think for Maija that has been a lot more straightforward than for me.
[00:03:07] Jonathan: It's not like everything else
[00:03:08] Tryphena: the I think that's usually the case. Yeah, maija just knows what she's doing and goes. Jonathan's like, what is my body saying?
[00:03:17] Jonathan: Who am I?
[00:03:19] Tryphena: What's going on? Okay, so six months is no joke of being away, and then six months of prepping, like, you practically moved your family. That is one of life's biggest stressors.
[00:03:29] Tryphena: I remember you even saying you got on the plane and it was like, oh, we did it because it was a sprint to the end.
[00:03:35] Jonathan: Yes.
[00:03:36] Tryphena: And then you went away for six months and now you're back. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Go on. Yeah.
[00:03:41] Jonathan: It probably would have been easier had we actually moved. Because then you would be just leaving this life behind. But the fact is, it was, we were having to set up a whole new functional life elsewhere, knowing we would be coming back to this. So it was like twice as much work.
[00:03:55] Tryphena: That like there are parts of your six months. I'm like, I don't know if I could do it, but okay. You are back.
[00:04:03] Jonathan: Yes.
[00:04:03] Tryphena: How does it feel to be back?
[00:04:05] Jonathan: It feels really good. It feels good. It was so wonderful to be away. It was so life giving in all kinds of different ways, ways we expected, ways we didn't expect. And. By the end of six months, like, it's a long time, and you've been on the road, we've been in and out of suitcases, we've been, stayed in, ugh, 15 or more different accommodations, and coming home to our house, and all of our bedrooms, and all of our toilets, man, the luxury of pooping in your own toilet.
[00:04:44] Tryphena: Hmm.
[00:04:45] Jonathan: Behind a door who's lock you trust praise the Lord and yeah, I think a lot of people as we made our way around different countries, because these are countries that we've lived in before or certainly, New Zealand I've lived in, the rest of the family have never lived in New Zealand., But Finland we lived in together and our first three children were born there, of course. So a lot of people were asking us, are you tempted to stay?
[00:05:14] Jonathan: Or do you think you'll be leaving Canada? Is this a new, are you trialing these different countries? And that's not the case at all. We have lots and lots of ambiguity and uncertainty in our life, but none at all about where we are living and where our kids are in school and our neighborhood. And Canada. And you can zoom out further, but. So coming home, I think reinforced that it was like a profound sense of rightness and like, uh, it's good to be home, even just to acknowledge that, right? Like, if you come home and you don't feel home or you don't feel that it's good to be there, those are, those are things worth knowing. Death Cab For Cutie sings, if you find yourself a villain in the story that you've written, maybe it's time to go.
[00:06:05] Tryphena: Hmm.
[00:06:05] Jonathan: yes, we feel very glad to be home. However, I have to say. In all transparency, we've been home two months, two months and two days. And this is precisely the amount of time that I needed to be ready to travel again.
[00:06:19] Tryphena: I love how you're like, and I'm ready to go away now. Let's do this.
[00:06:21] Jonathan: Let's, let's go. Maija does not feel that way. Maija would be very happy to not travel probably for another year or more, but I am ready to go. I have nowhere to go. I'm not going anywhere. We have no plans to go anywhere. There is no going. So that's just making sure that's clear. But I could very happily be exploring the world again. Two months, it turned out, was precisely as long as I needed to settle.
[00:06:47] Tryphena: That's a really good place to be where you are really happy to be home, but also secure enough to travel again. That's huge.
[00:06:54] Jonathan: Yeah, yeah, that feels good. But I also don't feel like I'm Like, I'm not assuaging a need to travel, like, it's okay. I can be home. I'm not, I'm not crippled by wanderlust, though, though maybe I really am. Even in saying that. That sounds like a self disclosure, doesn't it? Like when the guy,
[00:07:11] Tryphena: A little bit.
[00:07:12] Jonathan: Like when the abuser on stage says something and you're like, oh, that's a disclosure.
[00:07:16] Jonathan: I realize.
[00:07:17] Tryphena: Yep.
[00:07:18] Jonathan: Ah,
[00:07:19] Tryphena: That's quite the, uh, contrast there, but yes, it's an interesting I'm sure we will have to deep dive that converse that whole thought later.
[00:07:25] Jonathan: I'm crippled by wanderlust. I don't think I ever have vocalized that about myself until this moment. So let's make clear that The Puddcast is back on air and we are doing the things that we always do. Oh, and let's acknowledge the fact that there's video of this. We are recording this on video. So if you are a regular old listener via your audio listening app, that's great. Keep doing your thing. But if you want to see our faces, including the beautiful backdrop, not of mine, but right now, Tryphena is recording where, would you like to tell us where you're recording?
[00:07:59] Tryphena: I am currently recording in our sauna in my house, because my husband's wanderlust, what wanderlust, is like, let's just build things when we get bored. So there's a sauna in our bathroom. It's also the only quiet place in our house right now,
[00:08:15] Jonathan: Can I acknowledge that you pronounced sauna correctly?
[00:08:19] Tryphena: listen, you cannot
[00:08:20] Jonathan: that's a gift to the world.
[00:08:21] Tryphena: I cannot be friends with you and Maija and pronounce it wrong, it is, it's a thing now.
[00:08:27] Jonathan: I can't help but feel partly responsible for the fact that your husband built a sauna.
[00:08:32] Tryphena: I'm sorry, partly responsible? Like 110 percent responsible? I think Marc, any time he felt like it would be over at your house sauna-ing, and then was like, Oh yeah, I can put one of these in my house. And then you're like, yeah, you can totally put one of these in your house.
[00:08:48] Jonathan: And, not only did you put it in your house, you put it in your freaking bedroom.
[00:08:51] Jonathan: She said it's in her bathroom, but that's not even the truth, she lied on-air.
[00:08:54] Tryphena: Oh, did I say that? Sorry. Oh my goodness.
[00:08:55] Jonathan: Bedroom. Like, literally, If you, if you're oriented from the point of view of their bed, at one end of their bedroom is wall to wall glass and this gorgeous cedar handmade, hand built sauna.
[00:09:11] Jonathan: I'm very impressed. Marc
[00:09:12] Tryphena: my goodness.
[00:09:12] Jonathan: has really outdone himself.
[00:09:13] Tryphena: Yes, you make it sound very boujee we are not, but Marc is just incredible. Also, I wish, like, turn the camera except, like, our bed is not made. Everything is all over the place. Yeah, it's very interesting to sit in bed and stare at the sauna. Also, to have people over and stare at the bed. Both things are weird.
[00:09:32] Tryphena: Like, not that we have people over at this moment, but you know.
[00:09:35] Jonathan: We'll get there. We'll get there.
[00:09:37] Tryphena: We'll get there.
[00:09:38] Jonathan: We have not yet tested their sauna, so I can't comment on the quality of it. I've
[00:09:41] Jonathan: heard good things, but...
[00:09:41] Tryphena: Been home months. It doesn't feel like two months. We have hung out a whole, what, one time? Like,
[00:09:49] Jonathan: twice, but it's been hectic and you guys are navigating transition and, and we are navigating transition.
[00:09:54] Tryphena: Mm hmm.
[00:09:54] Jonathan: So,
[00:09:55] Tryphena: We are.
[00:09:56] Jonathan: so sabbatical was
[00:09:59] Tryphena: Yes. Tell us
[00:09:59] Tryphena: so great
[00:09:59] Jonathan: so great.
[00:10:01] Tryphena: About sabbatical, Jonathan.
[00:10:02] Jonathan: Here's the silly thing. I thought it was just about my children and specifically just about my daughters. Even then, kind of about our Little Miss, the youngest one who, uh, is still almost adopted.
[00:10:17] Tryphena: sorry. Hold on. Can we back up for a second? Intention of sabbatical to you going into it.
[00:10:22] Tryphena: was to, what was it? Like, why did you think
[00:10:27] Jonathan: expose our Little Miss to New Zealand and Finland. The countries, the people, and our families who live there, partly because she will receive those citizenships because of Maija and I's citizenships. So she'll be a citizen of these countries that she knows nothing about, that she's never been to. Even long before we became foster parents or adoptive parents, we, in, in the training and the learning, we were cognizant that any, anything that adds to the sense of separation and the sense of I don't fit in this family, anything there that can be overcome. You should put work into overcome. And so we thought, well, you know, these countries will always be big for us. They're not going away. Even if we never live in them again, we will always be part of our culture as a family. And so we, we should, at the very least, bring a child who joins our family to those places. So that was the early genesis of the idea. Then it suddenly moved into the realm of possibility when we discovered that thanks to the process of adopting, Maija could take paid parental leave from work. So suddenly it was like a pipe dream that could happen at the indeterminate future. And who knows how? Suddenly is like, actually, this could happen within the next year or two, and then, oh, actually, this has to happen within a certain amount of time in relation to the adoption proceedings. So pretty much this has to happen now. And that moved very very quickly. That was that was the early stage and then we began to realize you know what? Emmi, our other daughter, she doesn't remember these countries either the last time she was in these countries she was an infant. So we should bring her back there, and then and then you know you start to zoom out further and you realize actually Ruuben was like two so he doesn't remember things either in fact only James and he was like four years old has you know these like meta memory typology things that were discovered even as we were traveling. He's like, Oh, when we saw certain places or ate certain foods, the penny dropped for him and for Ruuben, like, this is a thing. I thought this was in a dream. I have imagined this place and I didn't know where it came from. And now I'm seeing it's real. That was a very interesting thing to watch as parents, especially my boys, walked that out in real time. So that was the Genesis. And that was really my framework for it, was giving my children some time in these countries, and I had no sense of my own connection to it. We, to provide a little more context, some of our best friends, um, separated in their marriage about three weeks before we left in March. And, um, some other friends of ours then also separated right about the end of our sabbatical. And in the middle of our sabbatical, we connected with another Couple of friends who are ending their 20 year relationship, 10, year marriage. So that, uh, has been an interesting through line, but we, so all that to say that we, we got on that plane pretty exhausted because we had been doing community, um, in, in the trenches up until the day we left and we sat down on that plane and you could feel your body and your nervous system sort of, you know, Melt and just kind of like, okay, we actually made it actually made it suddenly looked at my children. And the last time we traveled as a whole family was like 9 plus years ago.
[00:14:25] Jonathan: And so they're they're like 5, 4, 3 year old and it hit me for the very first time. A. Oh, gosh. This is going to be so much easier. I, uh, my whole body was armored up for like dragging infants across the world. And so suddenly already I'm like, oh, this is going to be a lot easier than I expected. And B, oh my gosh, my children are so old. 15, 14. Almost 12, 11, I guess, at the time, and 7, and I'm like, this could never have happened any other time than now. It just wouldn't have worked in the stage of life
[00:15:03] Tryphena: Mm hmm,
[00:15:04] Jonathan: If we hadn't hmm done the thing right now. And I had no connection to the weightiness of that.
[00:15:12] Tryphena: mm
[00:15:13] Jonathan: And then I was kind of like humbled and shocked.
[00:15:15] Jonathan: Like I could have just as we, we, I say I, it's not like I'm in charge, but like we could have just as easily not bothered to do all the work. 'cause it was a lot of work and really scary financially. it like, yeah, like to say like, we didn't have money in the bank. We have negative money in the bank. We have debts. And we did not have a way sensibly to pay for this and so it's not like we're rolling in it and going and traveling the world in luxury. We it was like financial terror, but just the sense that if we don't do it now, will it work? I don't know and it's like a once in a life. Let's just do it. But I really didn't have a deep connection to the weightiness of that and the significance of that until we were in the air And i'm looking at my kids and looking at Maija and I . I'm like, wow. So that's really weird that Sometimes the most significant impactful moments and seasons of your life that, you know, you will come back to look on for the rest of your life, almost didn't happen or just like seem like they happened on a whim.
[00:16:15] Tryphena: I feel like there's something so beautiful in that though. Because you both had a vision for what you wanted your family values to be. And so when you're incorpating someone into your family, you wanted to give them that as well. You didn't even know the why, but you're like, no, this is a desire and we're going to flesh it out. And to see the weight of that desire and the fruition of that is really significant. I think that's true of so much, right? And I, in both of our lives, like, oh, there's something not working here. There's something we need to do.
[00:16:43] Jonathan: Yes.
[00:16:44] Tryphena: And I'm not really sure what this is going to look like or why I'm going to do this, but I know I need to follow my intuition on this. So that's, it's really, really special. And then, even as you've said, and we're going to come back to, you thought this was for your kids.
[00:17:01] Jonathan: yes.
[00:17:02] Tryphena: But actually, I mean, it was for your children, a hundred percent, but also....
[00:17:06] Jonathan: so much more.
[00:17:07] Tryphena: It, yeah, it was deeply profound for you.
[00:17:10] Tryphena: Or was it? What did it feel like for you? Yeah, go,
[00:17:12] Jonathan: hold on. We, I think we need to acknowledge something really weird there. And you, you vocalized it. The sense of my body or just in my gut, like I know I need to do something.
[00:17:23] Tryphena: hmm.
[00:17:23] Jonathan: I don't know why and so on and so forth. We call that wild. We are, we are culturally indoctrinated to consider that a profound act of bravery.
[00:17:34] Tryphena: hmm.
[00:17:35] Jonathan: What if we didn't have to? What if, like, listening to our gut was the most sensible, logical thing?
[00:17:43] Tryphena: Right. Right?
[00:17:44] Jonathan: What if, like, this is not to diminish anybody's act of bravery in following that voice. Because it is brave. But what if it didn't have to be brave? What would the world, what kind of world would we need to be living in where following that inner voice of intuition, which again, I made, I made an image once, a Venn diagram, where it's like listening to the Spirit, listening to, you know, your body or your gut and like, I don't know, discerning, like, these not all strictly the same thing, but they're not not the same Venn overlap on all of those is really major. What if that was so normal and we didn't be like, so why are you doing this? So what's the logical, rational explanation. Like justify yourself.
[00:18:35] Tryphena: Yeah! Which even I feel like the first few minutes of this podcast and not in like a negative way, but it's been the justification for this sabbatical,
[00:18:45] Jonathan: Totally. Totally.
[00:18:46] Tryphena: Right?
[00:18:46] Jonathan: Like, I hit record without explaining why I wasn't here.
[00:18:50] Tryphena: totally, and then even that it's like, but also let me make sure, you know, yes, there's like privilege and being able to do this, but financially we're not rolling. Like, let me just make sure, you know, and I, and I feel that I feel that very deeply in my own life. I feel like I need to justify. All of my decisions in logic and rationale and like, Oh, here's the study that like, makes sense as to why we're doing what we're doing.
[00:19:11] Tryphena: Versus, Hey, I'm reading a book at the moment. And when I say that, like very loosely, um, _The Artist's Way_, and the journey of like, so the creator we're made in the image of the creator. And so we carry the creator within. And when we, and we create every day and you're creating your life, it's, you had this vision of how you were going, what you were going to create. And you're like, yeah, I'm going to do it. And yeah, you're like, You were very polite. You're like, this seems wild to the world. It seems in a very politically, unpolitically correct way. It seems batshit crazy. Because you didn't go... you didn't, it wasn't like, so what, what money are you making for six months? Who's funding this for six months? What's your children's education plan for six months? What's your, like all of the parts of capitalism that we deem very important.
[00:19:55] Jonathan: Yes.
[00:19:56] Tryphena: You weren't doing, you hit pause on all of that.
[00:20:00] Jonathan: that's true.
[00:20:02] Tryphena: And you just listened to a wild idea in your bodies and just created a life that you wanted. Like, that is so beautiful. And okay. Yeah. So you have to figure out the financial stuff on the other side. So maybe your retirement plan isn't gonna look like every, you know what I
[00:20:19] Jonathan: Well, the financial is so weird and since like since It's we I brought it up I I like... We got in this scary car accident that if you follow me on Insta you might remember, This was way back in february and I was trying to sell our car And it wasn't getting any offers or I got one offer and it was so much lower than I felt it was worth. But then we got in this crazy car accident and insurance initially said they were going to repair the car And then they wrote the car off and it was And we got the money. It was more than I probably could have sold it for. And it like covered our airfares, which I put on the credit card that week.
[00:20:53] Tryphena: It's wild.
[00:20:54] Jonathan: So that's really weird. And like, I'll take it. But I don't want it like, like that again, please, like my therapist was because I was like, I was a mess and I'd gone to therapy and he was like, Oh, this is very strange. This is very emotionally complicated, isn't it?
[00:21:11] Jonathan: Like, yes, it is. Like, can we see this as provision, but traumatic?
[00:21:18] Tryphena: Can we see it as redemption?
[00:21:21] Jonathan: Can we see it as redemption? Absolutely.
[00:21:24] Tryphena: I don't know. I don't know.
[00:21:24] Jonathan: And yet also later on down the road, we were found at fault. And so now like our insurance premium went through the roof. So that's frustrating. But then that caused us to rethink some things about vehicle ownership. And so now we're just like in a really different position regarding buying a really old car that was a cheaper to insure. And it's probably actually like a really good thing for our family right now. And we wouldn't have ended up in this thing had we not been forced to it. I tell you the whole thing of like, nothing is wasted.
[00:21:57] Tryphena: Mm
[00:21:57] Jonathan: That has been big. And then we Airbnb'd our house out and it basically covered all of our costs. So we came home. With no further debt, other than the crippling debt we already So, hey, the hole's not any deeper. I'll, I'll call that a win. And,
[00:22:18] Tryphena: That's a huge win.
[00:22:18] Jonathan: And we just got to live six months doing all the things we wanted to do with our family in a whole bunch of different countries and had an amazing time. OK. Here's, this is so funny. I'm like, it's for my children, it's for my children, it's for my children, it's not even occurred to me, the gifts that are there for Maija and I, beyond like, a bit of a break.
[00:22:37] Tryphena: It wasn't a break. You're traveling with four children. It's not a break.
[00:22:39] Jonathan: It's really wasn't a break. Um, but, it was a break from some things. So we turn up at church, the first Sunday, and this is my mother's church, and It is a place that I did not really attend. Like, I kind of went to a different church, but it was a connected church. But my grandfather was a pastor at this church. And I went to the youth group at this church point is there are old people at this church that have known me when I was in the belly when I was not even born and, um, some of those people are still old and alive and that was so, so grounding.
[00:23:18] Jonathan: I am no great voice of influence. I am just Rhonda's son and Bryan's , and Allison's grandson and I got to sit in church with my first youth pastor who is in his 70s and has had a stroke and is just waiting to be with Jesus because his body is really broken and he's been living in this really broken body for 17 years and he's like, God, I'm so done. But like. Jonathan, so good to see you. Wow. And you're still following the Lord. Wow. And like, to see my, to see the gift that my, that my presence in just being there was to him, I'm like, this is profoundly weird. I have done nothing. I'm literally just standing here and And he's like clutching my hands and I'm like, Oh, does God love us like this?, like God clutches our hand and face. And it's just so glad we exist and are still here. And, um, and to look around the room and be like, wow. Some of these people have been old and faithful my entire life.
[00:24:31] Tryphena: Hmm.
[00:24:32] Jonathan: Some of these people didn't look old, but now they do. Oh, wait, that's probably me too. Like that person is aging. And I'm Oh, that person is me.
[00:24:42] Tryphena: there's some gray in the beard, Jonathan.
[00:24:44] Jonathan: There's a lot grey. I came back with more grey. And, and you can't tell because it's so light in my room and I'm a little bit overexposed, but there's a lot more grey in my hair than there was.
[00:24:57] Jonathan: I was life there's a gift for me. I didn't, like, this is just what's absurd to me now. In hindsight, I'm like, of course there would be gifts for us in the process. But so it was so rich.
[00:25:06] Tryphena: There's something so profound in that because, so much, I mean, you are very grounded in your identity, but this isn't you as a writer or a pastor, or a teacher, or even like a foster or adoptive parent or all of these things that you do, you do from your own heart. There is weight and value in all of them, but you just get to be loved and known from, like, utero. There's something very profound about that. Before you knew anything, you were loved, and before you did anything, you were loved, and you are still very Like your presence is enjoyed and valued and it's very beautiful.
[00:25:47] Jonathan: I cried, um, through every church service I went to. I think for the entire six months.
[00:25:54] Tryphena: Why?
[00:25:55] Jonathan: We didn't go to a lot of church. We went to my mom's church. Uh, a few times we visited a handful of churches, depending on where we were traveling, what it's like, if it was meaningful to go to church with whoever we were being hosted with, or if it was like, no, let's take the opportunity to skip church. Like, it just we just did thing, whatever it was, along with visiting, you know, just popping into churches to pray and to just sit and be and meditate. And I'm not still entirely sure why I was crying through church. At very first time I just thought it was the connection to the people of this fellowship that I had been a part of. I assumed it was that hyper local sense of these people and being known and knowing them. But then I, but, but then I started going to other churches and I was still crying. So I was like, okay, it's not, it's not just about me. It's not just about these people. It's not just about this place. And I don't know that I have to fully understand it. It was a, it was a rich mystery to enjoy and feel the sacred presence of the Lord and, and feel my emotions and feel, I think, also like the maturity of my, of these years, slightly older to be like, I'm comfortable enough to cry and I'm not trying to hide it. And I think, especially in New Zealand growing up, which was very machismo, very stoic, very stiff upper lip, um, that felt like a really great thing for me to be able to re embody in New Zealand. Um, like I think that like there's embodiment and then there's like re embodiment. Like I practice this here and I practice this wherever I go now and I practice this for like 13, 12, 8 year old Jonathan, but to be in New Zealand and get to rewrite The A, the neurons, but B, the connection to land and place in my emotional self as a body was special. But.
[00:27:48] Tryphena: That's really profound.
[00:27:50] Jonathan: I, I am always trying to make meaning of things and understand things and, and I think, um, there was a sense of, of, of calling and desire to be amongst the people of God and. And it was so refreshing to get to do that in a, in a tiny slice of global context, not just the church we've been a part of for six or seven years, which we've now left in good terms. And, uh, so not just like one local expression of the church and not the Canadian church and not the North American church, but to be visiting with Jesus people of all traditions and all over the world. And man, that was refreshing.
[00:28:41] Tryphena: Hmm.
[00:28:42] Jonathan: I think there was that sense of, okay, I, the church is so complicated and I have such a, so many layers of of frustration and desire for reformation and awareness of evil perpetrated and continuing to be perpetrated by the church and God misrepresented in a thousand and one ways. And yet I want to be amongst the people of God. And I think that was a major takeaway.
[00:29:11] Tryphena: Hmm.
[00:29:11] Jonathan: And I don't even know that I want to want to be amongst the people of God, but, but I do want to there's what it seems that my soul and self are saying. At the same time, though, I was super armored up in church. Um, and I probably spent 6 months in a somewhat state of nervous system activation because while it was really theologically and culturally and politically refreshing to be outside of the North American context. Oh, that was so good.
[00:29:42] Tryphena: I have so many questions about that. Okay.
[00:29:44] Jonathan: Also, a lot of the churches that we were at were pushing some pretty toxic theology, and I could feel how armored up I was. And to be honest, this is usually the way, I was, I was partially aware of how armored up I was, but I became really aware of it when I went to, um, a church here in Guelph, to listen to the story of God in a way. That I knew wasn't going to be violent, retributive, vengeful, transactional, contingent upon me and my faith. And I just was like, oh, this is something I've missed for six months.
[00:30:26] Tryphena: Yeah, no, I'd believe that.
[00:30:29] Jonathan: One of the really fun things that I got to do with my kids was show them into all kinds of different churches and different expressions of the faith, you know, from just like different kind of Baptist or Pentecostally kinds of churches, all the way to Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, and many other different streams of the church. , and. Was able to like point out to the kids, Hey, like the way we worship is like a hundred years old. And there are other ways to be a Christ follower. And there are people that have been following Jesus in other ways for 2000 years. Some of those people, The way they do it has been almost unchanged for like 1800 years.
[00:31:12] Jonathan: And I'm not saying that that's fundamentally good or bad, but that's so different. And if the roots of your faith are only like the tradition of your faith is only 100, 150, 200 years old, that means something. And to see my kids look around a Greek Orthodox or Ukrainian Catholic Orthodox churches and see the iconography and the pictures of the gospel painted visually rather than biblically because this predates people having a Bible. It was so interesting to see them just digest that and process that and be like, okay, this is a big story. Okay. This is much bigger than our little North American hyper individual thing.
[00:32:02] Tryphena: I love that though. This is a big story.
[00:32:05] Jonathan: Yeah.
[00:32:06] Tryphena: What I think is so interesting when you're talking about re embodiment. is you can sit in the dissonance of I'm in this space and my body is emotional in a beautiful way. I am full of love and full of grace for a people and a body and a story that's so much larger than me. At the same time, I can sit and be very activated because I know what's about, what is being taught and spewed and all of that. Is toxic and damaging, but to be able to be fully present in both of those emotions, one, like, is so significant for you, like your own embodiment journey and to not shut down either of those.
[00:32:49] Tryphena: And two, I feel like, isn't that humanity?
[00:32:52] Jonathan: Yes,
[00:32:53] Tryphena: Like, in, right? Like, if we just think of like, Either both of our existences today, there is so much beauty and there's so much grace. And yet there is also pain and frustration and space for reformation. Um, we just recently celebrated equinox, equinox, I don't know, whatever it was. And I haven't always acknowledged the calendar, but I was sitting with my spiritual director and journaling through it. And we were talking about how there are two days of the year where there is full alignment and balance, full light, like half light, half darkness, and the rest of the year that doesn't exist. There will be more light or there will be more darkness. And how do you sit in that tension each and every day? And so you sitting in the church and saying, Hey, I see the image of God Like, everywhere I go, but there's something about this space for me that is beautiful and I love. And yet, space for healing and growth, like, feels like Jesus.
[00:34:02] Tryphena: That feels...
[00:34:03] Jonathan: thank you...
[00:34:04] Tryphena: very beautiful..
[00:34:05] Jonathan: ...for for returning that to me. It's really, that helps me. I hadn't really realized even that I was holding that in a non dual way, that I'm like, literally horrified at the things I'm hearing coming from the pulpit, and B, weeping with desire for, for the church. I had not quite put those together, so thank you.
[00:34:26] Jonathan: That's why we have conversations.
[00:34:28] Tryphena: It is. It really is. You
[00:34:31] Tryphena: OK but
[00:34:32] Jonathan: to be outside of North America,
[00:34:34] Tryphena: yes, that's what you had alluded to.
[00:34:35] Jonathan: was like a detox. to. like, okay, the political, cultural, social, religious ways of seeing the world, the binaries, right? There's like North America, if you guys are only mostly in North America, the, the polarity and the binaries and the extremism that you and I have to live in, in this continent is not the way that most humans are living on this planet.
[00:35:06] Tryphena: Mm-Hmm.
[00:35:07] Jonathan: And gosh, darn it, It was so good to be out of that for a while. Everybody who has the means and the privilege, and it does require privilege, needs to leave North America for a while. Gosh.
[00:35:23] Tryphena: Okay. So a hundred, sorry, go on. No, a hundred percent. Like, and let's also acknowledge like North America with a lot of what we know is North America right now. It's founded on a whole lot of binary and a whole lot of this is right and this is wrong. And so, uh, I would imagine, and obviously it has permeated every part of our culture, but. So you, me, you mentioned some of them, like political, religious, what felt really stark to you?
[00:35:47] Jonathan: Okay, like, I think that it's gotten really complicated in North America around Trump where,
[00:35:57] Jonathan: um,
[00:35:57] Tryphena: Oh, we're just going there. Okay.
[00:35:58] Jonathan: Yeah, well, I think this is, I think this is where I'm at now, because, almost every single Jesus follower we met, of every stripe, of every persuasion and tradition, anywhere else in the world, said what on earth has happened to the church in America that anybody could think Donald Trump is a good leader, let alone a good and righteous person. And that was just like a sanity check. Okay, so it is. It is an issue of bondage. It is an issue of principalities and powers causing blindness in North America. And even as I say that, I can feel, um, the awareness that I may be hurting people's feelings who are listening to this. And I don't want to hurt people's feelings. But I have felt so confused for the last handful of years as so many people that have been mentors and people that I have trusted and looked up to have embraced a message, , that I just can't understand and it's been confusing. And so to have be removed from that, , like a, like a, a pickle or a cucumber in its jar of pickling juices, to be removed from that environment and, you know, sit with people that are not progressives that are not like that are all kinds of conservative in all kinds of ways, but are still like what on earth is happening over there? What's in your water? And so that was refreshing, really refreshing. In terms of like in more progressive spaces, that was also really refreshing to on the flip side. To see the way that justice issues and injustices are dealt with in New Zealand, in Greece, in England, in Finland, and to also be like, oh, right, a lot of the way the progressive movement lives out, in North America, is just as lost is just as crazy, is just as blind. And it was really refreshing to be amongst people that are like, Oh, well, I don't espouse all these isms, these progressivism values. You could not call some of the people we were with social justice warriors. And yet they were like, But, but of course evil has been done to the indigenous people of this land. We're living on their land. Like, the only thing we should be talking about is how to solve these problems and make recompense and lament. And, you know, it was almost like you can be a progressive without being an asshole. You can just get about doing justice work without a song and dance. And I, I think there's a sense where, um, I was talking with a mentor and he used this, this language of, like, the difference between hyper vigilance. And mindfulness, and I
[00:39:06] Jonathan: feel like the, like, let's say, take university campuses as one example of kind of like, where we see a lot of progressive values pushed and lived in North America, university campuses are pure hyper vigilance, right? Like, it's teachers, professors, people, everyone are living in this heightened state of terror of saying the wrong thing, doing the wrong thing, doing the right thing the wrong way. And, and so I think. the difference between that kind of hypervigilance and a sense of rooted peaceful mindfulness that I'm like, I'm not going to do it perfectly. I am going to make mistakes,
[00:39:50] Tryphena: Mm-Hmm.
[00:39:51] Jonathan: but I know I care. I know I'm trying. I know I'm passionate about seeing wrongs righted, and I don't want my fear of accidentally using a microaggression to hold me back from actually loving people, because I'm hypervigilant. So the difference between those things? I can feel the vigilance in me of all the caveats I'm not giving right now, and all the people that are going to be like, mishearing what Jonathan is saying,
[00:40:21] Tryphena: hmm.
[00:40:21] Jonathan: and I'm trying to just be okay with that.
[00:40:24] Tryphena: No. Yeah, it's so interesting because, okay, so 10 minutes ago, we're talking about being in churches that are spewing toxic theologies or spewing seems harsh that are just, you know, their values are ones that we have unpacked since, right? Um, however, They are churches in spaces that are loving well. That are doing social justice well. That may not have the language around it, may not have the justification for what they're doing, but they're just able to show up
[00:40:59] Jonathan: Yeah.
[00:41:00] Tryphena: and be like Jesus. I feel like. We have this, I have a girlfriend and I constantly have a conversation of how important, like how theology matters and how the way you understand scripture and understand Jesus and understand God and the divine matters as to how you view the world.
[00:41:16] Jonathan: Yes.
[00:41:17] Tryphena: However, I feel like in North America, as you kind of talked about, we, everything needs to be so rational and so logical. And so one plus one equals two, that when our theology is a little messed up, we just lock into that, take it to some umpteenth extreme versus in the rest of the world. It's like, okay, so there, there's a, there can be some dissonance. It's not this dogmatic binary, but, and it's like, okay, so maybe Our theology is a little broken because everything needs reformation, but still we can be humans and listen to our intuition. Listen to that voice of creation inside of us. Listen to whatever that is, that empathy, that love, Holy Spirit, discernment. And we can still follow that. We don't lock into these rigid one plus two equals five
[00:42:05] Jonathan: Yes.
[00:42:06] Tryphena: Do you know what I'm saying? Like, it's just like, there's space for grace and for growth. And I remember you coming back and saying people were just like, the Trump thing is so interesting. And also people were looking at North America and it's like, you have all of the, like the labels.
[00:42:25] Jonathan: they're like, you have so many words for so many things. Woke, allies, um, and all these kinds of things that they were like, you have so many words for just like doing good.
[00:42:37] Tryphena: hmm. Yeah. And don't get me wrong. Like, it is so important to have like the sociological understandings
[00:42:44] Jonathan: there's absolutely a place for that. And language is important. There's reasons why.
[00:42:48] Tryphena: important. So important.
[00:42:50] Jonathan: But it's like the North American way is to make a business out of it, to make a capitalistic product and an ism and every and then it becomes another binary. And if you're not for this, you're against this. And so the words. We only, I feel like in North America, we only get about six months of good usage out of a word before it's just trashed and it just becomes another flag to be waved and becomes another partisan divisive issue.
[00:43:22] Tryphena: Yeah. And. It's, that's exactly it, right? Like, it's a binary, it's capital, like, we have to then make money off of it. We're writing every woke baby book, don't, like, not, not knocking the woke baby books. Like, we're just, can you, okay, it's gonna seem like a hard left, but this is gonna, I promise it'll make sense at the end.
[00:43:36] Tryphena: Can you tell us about Finnish mustard? Because I feel like you brought us,
[00:43:41] Jonathan: I see, I see where you're going with this.
[00:43:43] Tryphena: okay, thank you,
[00:43:44] Jonathan: So let's, for context, North America obviously has awful mustard. I don't know if anybody needs to be told that, but like French's and that yellow stuff that we eat here, vile. I'll eat it. It does feel sometimes the right kind of dirty to put in my hot dog. But like English mustard, French mustard, there are wonderful mustards of the world to go with the many different kinds of sausages of the world. But. I tell ya, Finland, has really stinking good mustard, and there's a few different varieties, but they're all similarly different, and anybody's like, oh, huh, everyone that we've introduced it to is like, where can I get some of this? This is just delicious, and you can't get it anywhere, because Finland doesn't give a shit about exporting just about any of their world changing products. Only the sauna, and the word sauna itself has like really gone everywhere. Um, handful of other innovations like the Oura ring. If you're into healthy wearables Oura is, is from Finland, um, Angry Birds, you know, they, obviously there are things that have left Finland, but,
[00:44:58] Jonathan: um,
[00:44:58] Tryphena: I didn't know angry Birds was from finland.
[00:45:00] Jonathan: Oh yeah. It's a deal.
[00:45:02] Tryphena: So many questions.
[00:45:03] Jonathan: point is
[00:45:04] Tryphena: The mustard.
[00:45:04] Jonathan: Finland, Finns are so content. And are so like, again, they're always voted the happiest people on earth, and they're always laughing about it because they're often like anxious, depressed people. And so they're like, who is happy? Not anyone. I know, but they are deeply content people.
[00:45:21] Jonathan: They have a lot provided. They have agreed. I say provided for them, but that's not correct. That they have agreed in the social contract to provide for one another, and that's their view on the way government works. So, people have agreed a functional way to care for one another, to pay for one another's education, to pay for one another's healthcare. And so the standard of living is high, the standard of health is really high. And they're just really content. And so they have these wonderful things, like Finnish mustard, that they just don't care to export anywhere, and they just enjoy it for them.
[00:45:58] Tryphena: It really is the most delicious stuff. We, like, just absolutely devoured it. But it was so interesting to me to eat this glorious mustard to be like, Hey, well, and to hear your story of like, yeah, they don't, they have no need to grow it to this exportable place to like, to make mad money off of it. One, their taxes will reflect that. But also they're just like, they were happy making good product for themselves. It didn't need to then be on Instagram. It didn't then need to like, you know, go viral. Like, and I'm not knocking any of this. I'm just saying like, It was very interesting to me, because even so going back a few minutes, we're having the conversation around justice.
[00:46:39] Tryphena: How often in North America do we still do it to then put out into the world to then... change like, I don't know if... I'm struggling to flesh this out. It feels performative.
[00:46:56] Jonathan: Yes. Yes, it does.
[00:46:58] Tryphena: in how fast it goes and it's like, okay, so what actual lasting change is happening? Is anybody actually Eating good food. Is anybody actually content. I don't know, like, it just feels like a rat race that we're trying to keep up with the right progressive lingo and language, and I don't know if anything's actually changing.
[00:47:23] Jonathan: yes, exactly.
[00:47:26] Tryphena: This is just, it's very dogma, like, I know there's, there's nuance to that, and it feels very jaded, but,
[00:47:33] Jonathan: yeah. but the, the, this is, this, so, so, yeah, so, so I think there's a corollary there too that, that I've been thinking about while we were away and in reflecting on coming back is, is the earthiness of our life while we were away. We weren't really online much. We, you know, my mom literally lives on a farm with 3000 goats. Um, and we did a lot of hiking. And time at the beach, and time in the sun. And it was very earthy, and grounded, and simple,
[00:48:08] Tryphena: Hmm.
[00:48:09] Jonathan: I'm reminded of, you know, some of Paul's admonition to the people of Thessalonica, where we did not go in Greece, but almost. Avoid ambition. Aim to live in quiet obscurity. Work with your hands. That's enough.
[00:48:28] Tryphena: Hmm.
[00:48:30] Jonathan: And that has been resonating in my mind. There was an aspect while we're away of telling myself, okay, enjoy this because this is not normal life.
[00:48:42] Tryphena: Hmm.
[00:48:43] Jonathan: then and then you get into this binary again, where you're like, this isn't normal life. This isn't life. This isn't a valid kind of life. Life back home where you're working hard and hustling. That's what life is like. And trying to actually, I catch that in myself and be like, no, this is life. Am I alive? Yes. And thus what I'm doing right now is an expression of my life. This is life. This is part of it. Yes. Of course this is really lucky that I get to do this, that I'm alive at this time. And we got to do this. So blessed. But this is life. This is a thing that is happening in our life and thus I'm going to stop saying this isn't real life. This is part of my real life and it's happening and I have two months home and two months was long and is long enough for me to now be angry and to now be like I, I have caught up with a lot of the people that I wanted to catch up with and now I miss the people that I left back in Finland and New Zealand again. And now I'm angry that I am loved and that I love other people in three, at least three or four different countries, and I can't be everywhere at once. And now I'm just existentially frustrated, which is the way I've lived most of my years. And yet, having the most meaningful, wonderful conversations with everybody all around the world as we all figure out how to lean into hope and how to lean into dignity and lean into goodness. Whoever you are, whatever you espouse, whatever political worldview you think is sensible for good governance, the rest of the world is not as polarized as we are. And it's like the conversations that are allowed. It's like it's a. Almost like this is a broad stroke, but we're good at those. It's almost like cancel culture doesn't exist outside North America and thus no one is really afraid of being canceled outside of North America. And that's again, not an accurate statement, but it's, it's a bit like everyone is still allowed to have conversations with each other and there's less assholery. Going around, which is obviously not to say that there is not problems. Every country's got its problems and every place has got its problems, but but you know, you don't notice those for a couple of years. You can move to a new place and it's all good until a few years. So, yeah, like 3 months here, 3 months there. It's just great.
[00:51:07] Tryphena: Okay, we have to come back to your whole Wanderlust thing another day, because this is, this is coming up all over the place.
[00:51:12] Jonathan: Sure. The other thing that, um, I think stood out to me
[00:51:17] Tryphena: Yes.
[00:51:18] Jonathan: as we were traveling around the world, meeting all kinds of different people, in all kinds of contexts, is I feel like the evolution of human consciousness, and that sounds so woo woo, but
[00:51:36] Tryphena: Okay. Flesh it out. Evolution of human consciousness. What do you mean?
[00:51:38] Jonathan: I'm going to try and do this in like two minutes.
[00:51:40] Jonathan: I have grown up in a world where a lot of the time, the people around me, outside the church, the world, as the church would have said, espoused better values and lived in more godly fashion than what was being taught in church. I say being taught in church because I think what you touched on earlier is really important. You can have some really bad theology and still be loving people really well. That's actually a very common thing that happens, and that's, like, the point is to love well. The point is not to have perfectly refined theology. And so I think that I grew up in churches that loved well but had really Been afraid of finding new language and the ability to reflect on what they taught and believed and why. So they were actually loving well, but they were teaching awful things. Teaching things that were much more harmful and less kind than was being taught, say, you know, in most of the education systems that I grew up in. And so my whole life when reading these scriptures about, you know, beware the world and listening to old men in churches or in missions organizations and places I've worked for be like, Oh, you know, the people out there in the world, they're just so evil.
[00:52:52] Jonathan: And I'm like, not in my experience, in my experience they're wonderful. In my experience, most human beings are really loving, kind, selfless people. And I've struggled with how to understand that and how to understand the biblical language about the world as kind of like this, this placeholder for, you know, these systems and principalities and powers that are like selfish and leading towards destruction or what, however, whatever you want to say. And I've always just been like, I don't know how to make sense of this cause the world seems like a pretty decent place. And, uh, and I think what's settled in me is actually God is at work in all human peoples and has been at work in all human peoples since forever, and God is leading all human peoples towards love and grace and dignity. And that's all. And I think I finally got just language and understanding on that and traveling the world and being like, yeah, we're, we're, this whole human thing is so scary and such a mixed bag, but is actually going somewhere really good. And I think there's a bunch of interesting stats that prove that, like, like, global rates of various kinds of violence are like the lowest that, That they've ever been, which is not to say it's a fundamentally safe place or that injustice. Of course not. But like, there's an evolution of our consciousness and our consciences as humans that I think is happening globally. Has been. It's not new, but I think we now have more knowledge on it because we're global. We're so much more connected and we're looking at across the thing. And just, we just, every, everyone we met any, anywhere and everywhere from every different religion and every different kind of political and social persuasion, I was like, re inspired at the goodness of humanity and the, the direction of this grand experiment, which means then that God is actually, love is working, love is working, there it is. I'm angry and depressed half of the time, but I have come back once again, as an optimist, rooted in this conviction that love is actually not just going to work, but is already working. There it is.
[00:55:21] Tryphena: Wow. There it is. Okay. Like love is working. And again, it's holding the duality of like, yeah, there's me.
[00:55:35] Tryphena: Can we also acknowledge the beauty and the growth as a, as a society, as a world, we have evolved just even, or it's not just food and shelter anymore for, for a lot of people have recognized privilege, recognize all those, like all the nuances, but there has been growth, there has been beauty. And I'd like to think that we are growing and evolving towards each other as we are moving towards love.
[00:56:02] Tryphena: And I wonder. If then part of our conversations in North America is we are stunting our evolution because we're trying to make sure all of our ducks are in a row and all of our I's are dotted and all of our T's are crossed. And so we're actually not listening to the intuition. We're not listening to the desires and the creativity because we're like, no, that's what
[00:56:28] Jonathan: We just looped that back to the very first discussion, Tryphena. You did it. You did it.
[00:56:33] Tryphena: Full circle! But yeah, it's like, it's all so connected. And listen, if we're all moving to love, if we are all made in the image of a creative and loving God, and we're listening to our bodies, I see a lot of beautiful things happening.
[00:56:54] Jonathan: Amen.
[00:56:55] Tryphena: And I love that for, for all of us. I love that you had these six months and you're able to flesh it out, and I think we're going to keep hearing so many of the gifts you were given from that time.
[00:57:04] Tryphena: It's, it's, they're going to keep being unpacked.
[00:57:06] Jonathan: Yes, I hope so.
[00:57:08] Tryphena: Mm hmm.
[00:57:10] Jonathan: So that's it for today. I don't know when we're going to be back. We don't know if we're doing this on the regular yet, but, uh, we will see you when we see you.
[00:57:18] Jonathan: You've been listening to The Puddcast with me, Jonathan Puddle, and my co-host Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon. Thank you for your patience while we have been spending the last year and more just doing other things. So, like I said, I'm not totally sure when we're going to be back. If these are going to be on the regular or not, but we love you, we think about you. If you'd like to learn more about me, the work I do, you can find me at jonathanpuddle.com. You can find me on all the social medias @JonathanPuddle. If you'd like to grab a copy of one of my books, You Are Enough: Learning to Love Yourself the Way God Loves Y_ou_. _Mornings with God: Daily Bible devotional for men_. Or the chapter I contributed to _Parenting_ D_econstructed_. You can find those on Amazon or wherever else you find your books. and at jonathanpuddle.com.
[00:58:15] Jonathan: If you like what we're doing here, and you'd like to become a supporter, please consider joining me on Patreon patreon.com/jonathanpuddle. You can also make a donation on my website if you look for the support button. Thank you so much for being here and we'll talk again soon.