#130: The Soul of the Helper (with Dr. Holly Oxhandler)

Professor, researcher and podcaster Dr. Holly Oxhandler is my guest, talking about the supports that helpers need to keep on helping. Whether we’re talking about parents, therapists, pastors, teachers or literally anyone else who helps, Holly’s research has shown the importance of seeing the divine inside ourselves so that we can connect with the divine in others. Her book, The Soul of the Helper: Seven Stages to Seeing the Sacred Within Yourself So You Can See It in Others, has been very impactful in my life and we unpacked her social work research, what she’s found, and why it works. This is gentle and vulnerable and practical, like all good Puddcasts should be. Get in!

Order The Soul of the Helper: Seven Stages to Seeing the Sacred Within Yourself So You Can See It in Others, by Dr. Holly K. Oxhandler
Listen to Holly’s podcast (with Robert Vore), CXMH: a podcast at the intersection of faith & mental health.
Learn more about Holly’s work at hollyoxhandler.com
Follow Holly on Instagram and Twitter.

Buy my brand new book, Mornings with God: Daily Bible Devotional for Men

Support the show and my other work, at jonathanpuddle.com/support
Order my trauma-informed 30-day devotional, You Are Enough: Learning to Love Yourself the Way God Loves You.
Find every book or resource I’ve talked about recently on my Amazon storefront, in Canada, the United States or the United Kingdom.

---

Related Episodes

Transcription

Holly Oxhandler  00:00

One of my biggest fears is that we think we see the sacred within those around us. But we actually, I am afraid we don't, if we're not paying attention to it within ourselves first. From that place, we then shift with compassion towards ourselves, as well as others. So we have this deep well of compassion, once we see the sacred within us. From that place of knowing we are beloved, we can then serve from that place of abundance and recognizing that we don't have to hustle for the things, we don't have to serve out of a place of scarcity or trying to earn or achieve or any of that, but we can serve with what we have to actually serve and offer others. And to trust that what we do is enough.

Jonathan Puddle  01:01

Hey goodlookin'! Welcome back to The Puddcast with me, Jonathan Puddle. Oh, wow, it's been a few months, I did not intend to take the summer off and there in lied the problem. You may remember on my prior interview with Jonathan Martin, I was in this kind of post-vacation relaxed state, all I wanted to do was eat good food and drink wine and hang out with my friends. Well, the summer holidays hit, my children were at home, we had some challenging foster dynamics, in our foster care life. And I didn't take the time off that I should have which left me feeling frustrated and grouchy and like a bad dad, which forced me to take the time off, but feel like it was taken from me rather than I lent into it. And in the middle of all of this pain and chaos and confusion, I picked up this book by my friend Holly Oxhandler, our guest today, The Soul of the Helper: Seven Stages to Seeing the Sacred within Yourself, So You Can See it in Others. And it was... yeah. So we're gonna talk about that today. No Tryphena on this episode, she was not available the week that Holly and I recorded. We recorded this well over a month ago now. So some of the information is a little dated. But I think you'll be able to make sense of it all. Honestly, as soon as we were done recording this, I basically had to stop and put everything into practice, just to get through the rest of the summer. So this is real. It's true life giving message. And Holly's tools are so so helpful. If you really struggle to rest and struggle to give yourself permission to breathe. I think there's gonna be something new for you. So I'm really excited that my friend Dr. Holly Oxhandler, is coming to the show. Let's get into it.

Jonathan Puddle  02:59

Friends, I'm very excited to welcome Holly Oxhandler to the show, who I have been following and listening to and circling for a couple of years. And this this new book that this book that Holly has out is just, it's hitting me in such a way. I'm going to explain this further. But I'm reading it. And I'm, I'm struggling to digest what I'm reading, which is a sign to me that I need the message here because I'm already in a state of depletion. So this is this is so on target that I'm really thrilled to be able to share this with you all today, everybody. So Holly, welcome to the show. Thank you for being here.

Holly Oxhandler  03:46

Oh my gosh, Jonathan, thank you so much for having me. Thank you for leaving us with vulnerability. And, and I know you said that you've been following me that it's been mutual. I've been following you and the good work that you have been doing as well. And so I really am truly honored to be here today with you. As a guest.

Jonathan Puddle  04:08

Yeah. So this this whole idea of helpers, needing help is very hard for me. We were just laughing before we hit record that we both are strong in this Enneagram two type energy.

Holly Oxhandler  04:32

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  04:33

And my wife is an eight, as I've mentioned on this show countless times. And so she'll always say, well, what do you need? Like just like, tell me what you need and we'll get you there like, like, it's not complicated.

Holly Oxhandler  04:45

Except that it is.

Jonathan Puddle  04:47

Except it's really complicated and, and it took me a while to realize, because I've been a professional. I've been a very busy director. At one point I was directing five times departments at a large Christian organization. So I've, I've been sat in the professional management upper level seat before. And I would, and I recognize now looking back that I constantly ran into this inability to ask for help. And it's, I don't know if this is the same for you or for all twos or just the way it's played out in my life. But it's not even such an aversion to asking for help. It never even crosses my mind. It's like a foreign language.

Holly Oxhandler  05:34

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  05:35

Like, if there's help to be if there's a help if there's a helper in the equation, that's me. Not not anyone else.

Holly Oxhandler  05:47

Yes, thats right.

Jonathan Puddle  05:48

I've spent the last three plus years trying to wrestle this thing. And even that language is wrong. Obviously, we're trying to do this with with gracious self compassion, rather than violence.

Holly Oxhandler  06:05

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  06:06

But I've just come off a wonderful three week vacation like a month or two ago with my wife for her 40th. That was amazing. We come back super recharged and replenished, and it's a month of my home life. And I'm feeling and seeing all these markers of chronic depletion.

Holly Oxhandler  06:24

Yup

Jonathan Puddle  06:25

And I'm watching myself get busier and busier and busier. And in the in between moments, I'm just scrolling, or I'm drinking or whatever. We know we know this.

Holly Oxhandler  06:38

Yeah, yes. Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  06:41

I Yeah. Like where do you start? And and what and talk to us a little bit about just this. First of all, this thing of helpers. getting help?

Holly Oxhandler  06:54

Yeah, yeah. Well, I feel like so much of what you just shared, I can resonate with have bumped up against the different stages along my journey, have heard from others that same struggle and wrestle and, and so the fact that that you're naming it is a gift for, especially for listeners to, you know, may not have the language, but for you to just begin us by wrapping language around that area, I think is wonderful. So I really do want to thank you for that as we begin. When we talk about helpers, I know we jumped right into the Enneagram language, and certainly those who identify with type two, I think this is a big wrestle for them. But I also recognize that we all have those helping tendencies within us. And I know kind of hanging with the Enneagram language, Dr. Jerome Lubbe writes about how we all have all of the nine numbers within us to varying degrees, and one may be our home base, but we still kind of have access in different ways to the others, just as a part of being human. So I do think that twos may wrestle with this the most, but certainly others may bump up at different points, I think when, to your question around, kind of, I think you would ask like, why this is really hard for helpers? And like asking for help. And I think that narrative runs deep for us and understanding like, I am the helper, I do the helping, and you receive my help. And we've picked up implicit and explicit messages along our journeys that really do kind of deepen that groove within our brains that understands, I do the helping thing for you. And so it's hard to shift that it's hard to rewire that or understand it in a different way, especially when it comes to receiving help from others. That's a whole other skill set. I think that we don't, we, we just haven't really strengthen that muscle or that ability to receive help. So not having done it very much. It makes it really uncomfortable and difficult for us to do it. Especially too when we see these increasing needs. Among us, we see the increasing rates of burnout, there are more opportunities to serve and help and do and advocate and heal and go and all of the things that we do as helpers, regardless of the profession that we're in, or non profession, you know, this is true for parents too, and volunteers and so many others, so not just the teachers and social workers and therapists and authors and you know, all those other types of helpers, but, but it's for the non professionals too. But yeah, I just think there's there's a lot of different and things that have been contributing to that narrative of I do the helping , and you receive it. And switching that's really hard for us. Pride definitely gets in the way. And I know we talked about that right in Enneagram language for twos. But I think the pride that gets in the way is not like, I think that what the language around present can be tricky. But I think for us, it really is this sense of like, I don't need help, that like everybody else around me who I'm trying to help. They're the ones who need help, but I don't need help. And that's that slippery slope of pride, when we have to lean into that humility, and recognizing that we are human, we are perfect. And we have limitations. And that can be really hard for us as helpers, sometimes, especially when we keep having these accolades around us that are like, no, no, keep going, keep helping. This is good, keep doing that. Helpers, like thrive on that, but but ultimately, we've got to start to unravel some of those narratives, I think, for us to get to a healthier space.

Jonathan Puddle  11:10

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So walk us through a little bit of your journey, if you would, kind of what brought you to this place of social work, research and the motivating factors in your life before, I'd love to, for you to walk us then through some of the stages that you've identified in your in your work.

Holly Oxhandler  11:33

Yeah, absolutely. So um, so as you mentioned, like, I am a researcher, I'm in social work. And I love what I get to do. But the point of getting to this point in my journey does have quite a bit of backstory, I will try to keep it brief. Because I know that these can be long. But what I will share is that I grew up in upstate New York, I now am in Texas, but I grew up in a family that there were a lot of good moments and a lot of things that I cherish and I'm grateful for. And there was quite a bit of trauma and pain and abuse and neglect that had happened as I was growing up. And those things were really difficult to go through as a kid. And I'm so thankful that my mom who I do have a really good relationship with her. She has been wonderful throughout my journey in a lot of different ways. And she recognized early on that mental health treatment would probably be something that would be really helpful for some of the things that I was going through. And more specifically, I navigated a lot of abuse and trauma and rejection from my biological dad that I do write about in the book. And this also was, as you know, I write about I had grown up within a Catholic tradition. And so I had picked up a lot of messages around, you know, how kids should be with their parents, and how you should honor thy mother and thy father. And I remember early in my face development, and in my childhood, really wrestling with how does that work? If I'm like actively being hurt by this person, like how do I honor them. And so I remember bringing those those questions and discussions to my therapist, I would try to talk about them with my priest. But oftentimes, my priest was like, I don't know how to help you with that, and let's just pray about it. And I think he was doing the best he could with the resources and knowledge he had. But my therapist was wonderful with holding that grounded space for me to wrestle with my faith alongside the circumstances that I was going through as a kid. As I got older, I really fell in love with the topic of mental health and psychology, I thought I wanted to have my own practice and be a psychologist and ended up finding social work along the way. I was doing some research working with older adults with anxiety and depression after I had graduated with my degree in psychology. And during that research, not only did I meet a social worker, who kind of told me a little bit about the profession, but also I began to understand that faith is an important part of how people cope with anxiety and depression like with these older adults. So I really, like fast forward, I ended up going into social work, getting my masters in it going on and getting my PhD in this area, because I really saw that Social Work allows for culture and values and understanding the person within their environment, their preferences, the systemic influences on individuals, like how this all comes into play. And I, I really could see how spirituality and mental health were intersecting much more clearly in that way. So um, so I've gone on to study, the degree to which integrating clients spirituality into mental health treatment impacts outcomes. I have personally done surveys looking at how prepared mental health care providers are to talk about clients faith and treatment. And I mean, I could go on and on and on about that, and just geek out about the research on it. But what I will say is that, I found some things within my research that I thought were not only relevant for mental health care providers, but that were relevant for everyday helpers. And that's kind of how it had eventually evolved into the SEC, the soul the helper. So I'm hoping I answered your question a little bit on the backstory piece.

Jonathan Puddle  16:04

Oh certainly, yeah, that's a really helpful positioning of where you are and came to this.

Holly Oxhandler  16:09

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  16:10

In the first section of the book, you lead in with a bunch of this stuff around the intersection of spirituality and mental health.

Holly Oxhandler  16:19

Correctly. Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  16:20

But in terms of the individual concepts, and then the issues around practice. And I just thought that was so fascinating. So correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like from most people want their their mental health supporters or social workers, their therapists to factor their faith into their treatment, while the majority of professionals are not equipped to do so we're not even encouraged necessarily to do so.

Holly Oxhandler  16:52

Yeah, so that's, that's, yep, you're right. So we see that a majority of clients, they want to talk about their faith, regardless of what it is, as it relates to their mental health struggles, their circumstances, because they do intersect. And we've seen in the research, I mean, I've done quite a bit of work looking at what client preferences. But so aside from seeing that clients want to talk about this, we also have this whole body of research that shows that, when you do integrate clients spirituality in treatment, they actually get better faster. In most cases, there are already a handful of cases where we haven't seen that. But overwhelmingly, the research is showing that when you integrate clients faith into treatment, you know, not imposing your own faith as the provider, but holding that grounded space for the client to talk about what they believe, and that they do get better faster. And and it's because there's so much nuance to the spiritual journey, that includes the good and those euphoric happy, you know, joyful moments in the journey. But also, those moments, those dark nights of the soul and the wrestling and the wondering, like, where are you higher power in whatever it is, it's happening? And so yes, you're right, that mental health care providers, unfortunately, historically, have not gotten a lot of training on this topic, they tend to have really positive views about it. And they think that it's important to talk about with their clients, but they really haven't gotten a guidance on like how to navigate this. And it's such a taboo topic, that I think a lot of times providers are like, I'm just gonna wait for the client to bring it up. When in fact, we see that like, clients are waiting for the therapist to be the one to bring it up. So it's kind of that in between space that we're trying to do some work a little bit.

Jonathan Puddle  18:54

And then like, we don't need to spend time here, but I was in my head, as I was thinking through this, because the flip side, this space that I occupy, as a as a pastor and spiritual leader, is looking at all these postures going, every one of these people needs to be equipped with a measure of mental health and trauma informed NIS.

Holly Oxhandler  19:14

Yes.

Jonathan Puddle  19:15

At the very least enough that they can make sensible referral, obviously not stepping into realms that they are not equipped to deal with.

Holly Oxhandler  19:23

That's right. That is right.

Jonathan Puddle  19:24

But the difference between, you know, between the ability and willingness and preparedness to refer someone to a good therapist versus the spiritual bypassing that was, present in the tradition that I grew up in. I wouldn't necessarily say like, like the tradition that I had, they had a strong value for, you know, biblical counseling and, and the realm of emotions and heart hurts. So, it was certainly better than it could have been, there was a there was a grid for this, but the grid tended to be Jesus will solve your problems.

Holly Oxhandler  19:27

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  19:32

Some of them Jesus didn't straight up solve.

Holly Oxhandler  20:07

That's right.

Jonathan Puddle  20:08

Though even that being said back to the point on the therapist and integrating spirituality, or integrating, you know, acknowledging and working with the clients spirituality. Even when we drill down to like internal family systems work, every time that my therapist or me when working on myself, invites my parts to connect with Jesus, something happens, something that doesn't happen quite the same way. Without Jesus. And I just again, I think that's fascinating. And it certainly to, you know, Deke Schwartz's work in our house, and what he's found, like every single human being possesses these, this good self.

Holly Oxhandler  20:59

Yeah, yes.

Jonathan Puddle  21:00

When I say Jesus, I don't mean to be exclusive.

Holly Oxhandler  21:04

Right.

Jonathan Puddle  21:04

But there's something powerful there.

Holly Oxhandler  21:07

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's good. See, and that's where we want our providers to, I mean, again, I'm on the mental health provider side. So that's where we want those providers to be able to, you know, hold that space for that for that divine spark within the client, or, or Jesus, or whatever the client is referring to, or that true self or soul or, you know, we have to hold space for that. And all the layers of that journey that got them to where they are at this point. Yeah, no, I, I can't riff on that. But I hear you, yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  21:48

So you bring this concept in of namaste theory, and the only and it's great, because the only grid, I'm gonna out myself here, and everyone's gonna be like, Well, you said that on air. The only grid that I had for what that word meant was like a little greeting.

Holly Oxhandler  22:04

Oh, uh, huh. Yeah. Your not alone. Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  22:07

I did not have any further grid for that. I was like, yeah, it probably means something to someone, but I'm not the one. So I, I didn't really know what that meant. So could you walk us through the word the meaning that the whole thing that it's referring to and and how you and why, why it became a pivotal piece for you?

Holly Oxhandler  22:25

Yeah. Oh, gosh, such good questions. So as I was doing this research, looking at these mental health care providers, I found over and over again, that the top predictor of their views and behaviors around integrating their clients faith was this term intrinsic religiosity or how motivated these providers were to live out their faith. It wasn't dependent upon their faith tradition, but it's just how they embody and live out their faith in their day to day life. That was the top predictor. The second predictor was their training, and then everything else fell to the wayside like nothing else held in the model of the, you know, the analysis that we did. So to me, that was I really was like, kind of startled by that, like, why is their own degree of living out their faith influencing, their views and behaviors of what they're doing with their clients, I set it aside for a little bit, but then started to and started to do some other studies looking at nurses and psychologists and marriage and family therapists and counselors and many other providers. And I saw the same pattern over and over again. So this term, namaste, which is a Hindi term, and it literally breaks down to mean nama means to bow and tay means to you. And, and I really, I had understood it, I had learned a little bit about it. It's the yoga classes, like a decade before, but I really wanted to honor the cultural roots of this term, and to understand it as best as could within its original tradition. And so I read A. K. Krishna Nambiar's book about namaste and its philosophy and significance in Indian culture. And what I understood is that there really is this spiritual underpinning to the word that translates to me, not just I bow to you, but the sacred within me recognized as a sacred within you or the divine within me, honors the divine within you, or the image of God within me sees the image of God within you. And that really brought order to what I was finding within my data. And so I published this theory called namaste theory in 2017. But as I continued to live into it, and really try to, like contemplate it, wrestle with it and and transparently, embody it and practice it, I realized that this theory is not just for mental health care providers, but again, it's for everyday helpers, particularly in recognizing that these everyday helpers have got to wake up to the sacred within themselves as they go out and serve others, especially as they are just going going on. But we can't, we're gonna burn out if we don't wake up to that sacred within ourselves. And one of my biggest fears is that we think we see the sacred within those around us. But we actually I am afraid we don't, if we're not paying attention to it within ourselves first. So it was really embodying that and wrestling with that. I talked with tons of folks about this and try to get a sense of like, is it really for mental health care providers, or like how really does that hold true for, for parents and for faith leaders, and for teachers, and volunteers, and again, on and on with the list of helpers, but whenever I talked about it with them, it's like something clicked and folks are like, oh, that makes sense. Because I have been able to be more present to those around me when I am tending to that divine spark within me, or I've been on the receiving end of that, where I've really felt like somebody has been fully present with me in a deeply grounded way, when they're taking care of themselves in that way, so that they can actually hold that space for me while I'm wrestling with my own stuff that I'm navigating and needing help with. So it was through embodying that theory, and really living into it that those seven stages that cover the second part of the book, were kind of born from that.

Jonathan Puddle  26:46

I feel like we could just camp out on this phrase. Like the divine in me, sees the divine in you.

Holly Oxhandler  26:59

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  27:00

If I sit here, I mean, I can feel it. I felt it as you said.

Holly Oxhandler  27:06

I noticed. Yup.

Jonathan Puddle  27:09

And I if I think about the some of the spiritual directors, or again, the good therapists, or just some of the people who've been mentors, in my life, and really holistic ways, often what they've given me is the dignity to be myself. And to see and the dignity to see becoming myself as a sacred journey, a permission that I don't even technically need from anyone, but that you know, it releases something and it helps in some way. And as I as I then contrast that with all the people that I have helped some far more selflessly than others. And you know, the, the situations that I the hearts that I've got myself in snared with and snarled up around when I was really trying to help someone, so that I wouldn't be in pain.

Holly Oxhandler  28:21

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  28:22

As of my proximity to people who are hurting. And, and being like, okay, okay, so I'm not going to condemn myself. I'm not going to move in shame here. I was doing the best I could with what I had what I knew.

Holly Oxhandler  28:36

Yes, yes.

Jonathan Puddle  28:38

But clearly, these figures that have given these permissions and these gifts to me, were coming from a place of rooted groundedness there was no need within themselves, regarding me. But there was all and because there was perhaps no need, there was all the room for the gift. And so I'm like, yes, Jonathan puddle needs to live deeper into this. So thankfully, your book is very practical also. And seven stages. I'm like, okay, great.

Holly Oxhandler  29:25

Oh, oh, Jonathan, so much of what you're saying. No, it resonates. I mean, it's, I mean, it, you're hitting on so many of the little pieces that I write about too and those stages around, you know, the unconditional versus conditional giving and the grounded presence that we talked about and yeah, so anyways, we can go into those spaces if you want or if you want to just go into the stages overall, me and I'll let you drive.

Jonathan Puddle  29:57

Why don't you unpack a couple of the stages or even just give a high level overview of some of the stages, because I know like, I would encourage everyone to go and get this book. But I know some folks aren't in a position to do so we don't have time or capacity resources. So if we could give a  just super Coles Notes version for folks who are like, okay, I'm interested, where can someone begin to start attending or paying attention? Or how does that process work?

Holly Oxhandler  30:24

Yeah, well, let me I'll do that overview of the stages. And so the seven stages that are in this book, they all begin with the last make it nice and easy for folks. But they are speed, slow, steady, see, shift, and serve. And the underpinning message that kind of collects these stages together is that we as helpers, we have got to wake up to the speed at which we are operating through this life, this and promise life that we've been given to then slow down, which is really hard for us. So we need some steadying structures to actually be able to navigate that slower pace so that we can then be still, and actually lean into that stillness, because it's not until we are still that we can actually see the sacred within us as well as the shadows that are, I mean, they're really tricky to navigate and be with and hold space for. But once we see we can't unsee. And so from that place, we then shift with compassion towards ourselves, as well as others. So we have this deep well of compassion, once we see the sacred within us, so that we can then shift and then from that place of knowing we are beloved, we can then serve from that place of abundance and recognizing that we don't have to hustle for the things we don't have to serve out of a place of scarcity or trying to earn or achieve or any of that. But we can serve with what we have to actually serve and offer others. And to trust that what we do is enough, which I think is really hard for twos. I mean, I know you wrote a book about this, so but that enoughness, right is just hard for us to lean into. And remember that we are enough as we are. And that what we do like to lean and trust that what we do is enough, which again, I think that's where pride can kind of sneak in and tell us like No, you need to do more. Sometimes we have to, we have to know that what we're doing is enough. But that discernment process, through each of the stages is tricky. The stages are not linear, as much as I wish that they were clean, and you just checkbox your way through it and you're done. It is not the case, we are going to go through different moments and seasons in our life where we are going to create back to that high speed pace of living where we go go go, our foot has you know, is all the way down on the accelerator, and we're just going and then we may have opportunities later where we can slow down and and I recognize that there are systemic structures that are part of this, which again, you know, I think this is the that invitation that we get as helpers to advocate for more of these structures that help people be within a more sustainable and livable pace so so again, that we connect with and get in touch with that divine spark within us so that we can see it and those around us.

Jonathan Puddle  33:47

Yeah, that issue is an issue is really important. Right? And, and obviously you and I are navigating that in a in a in a different role to someone who is more exploited by these systems. I remember my friend Rohadi Nagassar when he read through a You Are Enough, he said this is good, Jonathan, but most most people are not gonna be able to do this in a month most people are willing to take a whole year and many people will not have the privilege of the economic or the or the time privilege to do the work that you admittedly quit your job and lay on your couch for six months to do.

Holly Oxhandler  34:27

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  34:29

Again, full full disclosure and I walked through how and and why that happened and I and the financial terror that was apart of it but that's an issue that I that I struggle with, how do I serve up things that I know, work in principle, but that can be difficult to access in practice? For many people. That's a.... yeah do have further insight or thought on that directly because I struggle with it?

Holly Oxhandler  35:05

Yeah, I do, too. I always start with recognizing that we have to do our own inner work. And we have to navigate the systems that we're trying to navigate and be really honest with our process, including noticing where we have had privileges, and getting very honest about those, as well as getting honest about the areas that we really struggled. And I was honest, in a handful of points in the book about areas that like my husband, and I really struggled. And so I nodded to systems that were not conducive to well being it certain points, and those systems they influence influence us to keep going at that high spead pace, like, we don't even have time to slow down and do that self reflection. If we're just trying to be able to pay the bills, it's really hard to do that. And I'm very, very, very mindful of that. But I think, recognizing that there, that each individual's situation is unique, and their systems that they are at the intersection of is unique. I like to at least start by saying, you know, we each have to do our own inner work. And then from that place of serve, is where we can start really looking out and saying like, how can I do this? How can I support other people in these tangible ways? What what role do I have in advocating for systems to not continue to exploit people to a point of hustling beyond human capacity? So it's a really careful discernment process. And I don't think there's an easy answer to it, unfortunately. But I think it's that one day at a time, one moment at a time, to the best of our ability, discernment process of recognizing what is ours to do, and how can we support and serve others? So.

Jonathan Puddle  37:07

Yeah, that's good.

Holly Oxhandler  37:08

Yeah, I, some of that is, you know, woven into the chapters, I have, like, a number of different contemplative practices in there that invite the reader to lean into whatever that stage is that that I'm writing about. There's some reflection questions, too, to kind of invite that self reflection. But you know, that, that saying, like, we can't bring others to places we can't lead others to places that we haven't been like, we have to do this, this in our work. And it is really hard to do. And we have a lot of things, climbing it our attention in a lot of different directions.

Jonathan Puddle  37:49

Yeah, big time. So this first stage is kind of referring. Speed is referring to kind of like our defense of just everything's fast and manic, certainly here in the northern West, Global North. Yeah. And so we, we want or need, ideally, to move into slowness, which immediately brings up all the pain that we are desperately trying to not feel.

Holly Oxhandler  38:15

Oh, I know. I know.

Jonathan Puddle  38:18

So talk to me then about Steady, because you talked about steadying structures. And and that's that, I felt something tweak inside.

Holly Oxhandler  38:31

That's good. Yeah. Well, with that speed, I'm, well, I'll first say with the speed piece that that is, you know, those it's just our way of being and again, it's there are systems that have oriented us toward that. There are ways that we're not even aware of like I talked about pre-contemplation and contemplation and the stages of change and recognizing we're practically addicted to this way of being in the world. So, in order to move at a slower pace, we do have to identify those steadying structures that scaffolding the practices that allow our, our ways of being to heal, to be able to stay at that slower pace without feeling like there's a threat, like without feeling like we're going to be harmed or something's going to happen if we don't hurry up and go back to that high speed pace of being. I know. It's huge.

Jonathan Puddle  39:30

I'm chuckling in order to avoid showing other fealings, like crying.

Holly Oxhandler  39:37

I know. I know. I know. I hear you. I do.

Jonathan Puddle  39:41

I can go and sit. I built a I built a sauna, a sauna for my family because we have finished. I can sit in the sauna and do nothing in there.

Holly Oxhandler  39:53

How's that work? That's great. How does that work for you? Yeah, does it work?

Jonathan Puddle  39:57

It's much easier. It's much easier to do it in there and to sit and in silence and stillness.

Holly Oxhandler  40:05

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  40:06

And then you sort of, you know, cool off and heat up and cool off and heat it up. It's much easier to do it there. Then in any other context for me, sitting still feels like time wasting. Unless I'm in the sauna.

Holly Oxhandler  40:20

Yes. Yes, that's right. Because then there's like a productive being still. Right. There's like productivity tied to being still in there.

Jonathan Puddle  40:27

Is that a steadying structure, or is that just another excuse?

Holly Oxhandler  40:32

Well, I well, I think those steadying structures are, I mean, there's a number of them. I think that the fact that you have taken away all of the different, like triggers and reminders of things to do by being in that space. I think that that certainly is a huge help, you are retreating to a space that there's nothing in there that needs your attention. There's nothing in there that it's asking for help fellow helper. And but I also imagine that to some degree, you've kind of rewired the way that you look at it like, well, I'm doing something, I'm in this sauna to do something. So it makes it a little.

Jonathan Puddle  41:13

I am, so that I can come back and do hard work.

Holly Oxhandler  41:18

So that you can do that. Yes, that's right. That's right. That's right. It's okay. No, it's, it's okay. It's part of the journey, my friend. It's okay. Um, but there are a lot of different steadying structures. Like I think that what you're leading into right there is getting at curiosity. And I think that that's an important one. I think patience is important. I think identifying boundaries is an important way of creating that scaffolding so that you can which I know boundaries are really hard, especially for helpers, because we will easily let those boundaries down if it means helping someone else because they're easily justifiable. Sabbath. I mean, there's a whole bunch, the one that I think was the most important for me, was learning to ask for help, going back to what we were talking about earlier. And I have a story in there about my doctor and my husband, talking with me, because I realized that if I kept going at the pace that it was like my health, my family, everything would suffer and fall apart. And that accountability and learning to ask for help. And leaning on others with humility was probably one of the most important ones. So but that solitude of a sauna, I mean, I could also see that easily translating to some of my contemplative practices like centering prayer, right, where just having that quiet space. Maybe initially, we go into it so that we can get something out of it. But hopefully, eventually, over time, we go into it just for the sake of realizing that 20 minutes or however long of that quiet time and stillness and solitude and silence like, it's like a vitamin, our souls need to be able to keep moving through the day and to move through this life.

Jonathan Puddle  43:10

Yeah, that's really helpful. That's really good.

Holly Oxhandler  43:12

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  43:13

Do you have any practices you could equip us with right here?

Holly Oxhandler  43:20

Do my little like, yes. Centering prayer,

Jonathan Puddle  43:25

Your tapping your finger tips together, like she has an evil, generous scheme.

Holly Oxhandler  43:32

Let me help you, my friends. No, no, I think so I would say so what I will say first is that the the there are two practices I've most often elevate. The first is seeking mental health treatment. And I recognize again, as a social worker, there are a lot of systemic and difficult layers that can get in the way of that. That said, I'm hoping that stigma is not one of them. Because over 80% of us will meet criteria for a diagnosable mental illness by the time we are in midlife, basically young adults to midlife. And so letting that stigma piece fall, there are I don't know, depending on where you live, like some of the resources that might be available in the United States. There's a 211 number that can help folks to local mental health resources that I like to elevate. But I think seeking mental health treatment is is one of the first things that I like to recommend and just remember that we go to see a doctor every year for a checkup. We go to see a dentist, we go to an eye doctor, you and I both have glasses, you know, we we go to these doctors and it's okay to go see a mental health care provider and and transparently I realized like, I am a better mom and educator and I'm better at what I do and who I am when I'm doing that work with my provider. So, so really like to start with that the other. The other practice I really like to elevate is centering prayer. And you know, some folks may lean on meditation or look different for each individual. But for me, it looks like a 20 minute sit, surrendering to a higher power, releasing control and recognizing that anything, that for me, it's God, anything that God does, in that time is none of my business, just so hard, again, as a helper to remember like, I'm not in control and but it's surrendering to God and consent. They're consenting to God's action, and presence within me. And a lot of that is grounded in Father Thomas Keating teachings about centering prayer is what I lean on. So I do 20 minutes, but I started at two minutes. So there's a great app called Insight Timer that I like to tell folks about so. But yeah, those would be a couple that I would elevate. And then there's lots of others in there. Oh, maybe one more. One more I'll I'll mention. One other one I'd really recommend is, especially for helpers is that practice of Sabbath or regular Sabbath practice, where you're reminded again, that you are a human being, you're a human being, and that you are not defined by your productivity that for one day, a week, and maybe a whole day is not an option? Maybe it's just half a day, or a couple of hours, which there have been seasons in my life where that's all I could do for Sabbath. I needed that reminder that I'm not defined by what I do. And we need those humbling reminders, I think, as helpers as often as we can. So, so weekly Sabbath practice would be the third.

Jonathan Puddle  47:06

Thank you. That's good. That that's yes. That's confirming a few thoughts as well that I've been like, I need to get back to this thing that I was doing before the pandemic. Yes. That's good. Yeah. Holly, would you pray for us?

Holly Oxhandler  47:20

Oh, absolutely. Thank you. God, thank you so much for this day that you have given to us to love to serve. I thank you for the presence of each person who is listening to this episode. I thank you for Jonathan and for his willingness to show up and create this space for us. I thank you for each of the helpers, who are taking this life one day at a time, one moment at a time, and to the best of their ability. And I just ask that you that you give them a new energy, to remember that they are beloved, that they are worth the love and care that they give to so many others. And to just remember to ground themselves in that love so that they can serve from that love rather than hustling for it. God, thank you so much again for everything and in Jesus name we pray, amen.

Jonathan Puddle  48:36

Amen. That bit about the steadying structures, the scaffolding that helps us to resist the manic pace of life, to hold some of our shadow sides at bay. That was very, very helpful. And that was a new thing for me. The kind of slowing down and the attending and those kinds of things, the the first few steps that she described, you know, those were things already part of my practices, as were some of the later steps. But this idea of constructing scaffolding to help us stay in the space that we've determined is life giving and restorative for us. Very, very helpful. So I commend this book to you go and you'll find it in the show notes you'll find with Amazon you find it wherever you find books, The Soul of the Helper: Seven Stages to Seeing the Sacred Within Yourself, So you can see it in Others, by Holly K. Oxhandler PhD. Friends, there is no B-side to this episode, Tryphena and I were going to record one, Tryphena was reading the book. She was listening to the interview and we were having this crazy summer each of us with our different kids and we ended up saying, "You know what? The best way we can honor Holly's message and honor ourselves is to not hustle and try and squeeze out a B-side right now." And by the time our schedules were opening back up, we had recorded other interviews that are forthcoming. So there's no B-side for this one, I'm afraid, but I think it was probably intimate and reflective enough that hopefully there's something really in there for you to chew over. Drop me a line @JonathanPuddle on all the social media channels. I would love to hear how you are doing, how this message resonates with you. And friends, can I ask you just a little personal appeal? I know that this is a difficult economic time for a lot of folks. Same for me. I've had a lot of my monthly supporters need to drop off because of their own circumstances. If you are in a position where you've got $3 or $5 a month extra, and you love what I'm doing, would you consider becoming a supporter? It would really bless me and help us out right now. You can do that at patreon.com/jonathanpuddle. I would be very grateful. Friends, that's it for this episode. I've got a whole bunch more in the can waiting to be edited. And I can't wait to share them with you all. Grace and peace to you. We will see you again here before long.