#126: Love, freedom and conflict (with Ashley Abercrombie)

This month I got to interview a true kindred spirit, Ashley Abercrombie. Ashley’s message of embracing transformative love by bravely facing disagreement and conflict was challenging to me in all the best ways. Ashley grew up in the American South before moving to Los Angeles and Manhattan. Along the way, she faced addiction, perfectionism, sexual assault and more, and today is a writer, podcaster, pastor and mom to three young kids. Her latest book is called Love is the Resistance: Learn to disagree, resolve the conflicts you've been avoiding and create real change. It’s excellent.

Order Love is the Resistance: Learn to disagree, resolve the conflicts you've been avoiding and create real change, by Ashley Abercrombie.
Learn more about Ashley at ashabercrombie.org
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Order my trauma-informed 30-day devotional, You Are Enough: Learning to Love Yourself the Way God Loves You.
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Check out the B-Side!

Once you’ve listened to this, make sure to check out the raw and uncut B-Side interview where my friends and I unpack the conversation in even more detail. Available exclusively on Patreon.

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Transcription

Ashley Abercrombie  00:00

No one is born able to handle conflict, it's not something you get taught growing up. Most families are not in conflict-healthy homes, they are either avoiding it or they're exploding, or there's some combination of the two. And I think that we also have to recognize the context that we're in, whether we are talking about church and what our role is in the church, or we're at work or we're in our home life. Like, for example, I don't mind conflict, anywhere... conflict comes pretty naturally to me, except in my most intimate relationships. So it's also important to recognize that we're all some sort of combination of nerves and fear and anxiety, depending on the context that we're in.

Jonathan Puddle  00:38

Welcome back to The Puddcast, my friends, this is episode 126. This week, I'm bringing to you my new friend, Ashley Abercrombie. Ashley is an author, pastor, podcaster, mom, racial justice, anti trafficking advocate, all manner of interesting and exciting things Ashley is involved in. She co-hosts the podcast "Why Tho?" with Tiffany Bluhm, who was on the show some time back, and Ashley and I hit it off, you'll hear lots of laughter, we had a lot of fun. We had tried to schedule this back in December, my family got COVID, her family got COVID, there was a whole sequence of breakdowns. But we finally sat down, recorded a wonderful conversation, all about transformative love and embracing conflict. So I'm thrilled to share this with you today. I had a reader write to me the other day and mentioned that he just can't listen to podcasts because the audio format doesn't work well for him. And I said to him, "Hey, great news, all of my podcasts are transcribed now into text. They're available, you can read them." And he said, oh, that's fantastic. And so he said, now I can go back and dig into your podcast. So if that's you, if you've got a friend who love to read a podcast, go tell them about The Puddcast. JonathanPuddle.com, you'll find the show notes for this show. And you will find the text transcription for this. So let's get into this interview with Ashley Abercrombie. Ashley, this has been already fun, we've already been giggling and laughing. And I'm really excited to welcome you to the show. And just just discovering this morning, how many people who've been on the show before are friends and followers and fans of your work. And I, which I didn't realize until like moments ago, but I've been reading your work since I became aware of you. And I've been really enjoying it and thrilled that despite two months of attempted interviews, here we are. So, lovely to meet you in digital person. And welcome to The Puddcast

Ashley Abercrombie  03:01

I'm so happy to be here with you. Thank you for having me. And most people I have encountered really, really love you and your work. And so it's a joy to get to have a conversation with you.

Jonathan Puddle  03:12

Aww, that's very generous, thank you. I would love for you to introduce us a bit to yourself and tell us some of your journey. Part of the reason being you've written this book called Love is The Resistance. And when I read the title, I was like, Oh, yes, that sounds great. I don't even need like the media kit. I would love to learn more. And then I saw the book and I read the subtitle. And it's like "Learn to disagree, resolve the conflicts you've been avoiding and create real change." I'm like, Yeah, hard pass. Hard. Pass. Friend. So I'm having having read most of this and really enjoyed it (mostly). It's my conviction as someone who has also meditated a lot on the subject of transformative love that you don't get there without bruises.

Ashley Abercrombie  04:05

Mm, yes.

Jonathan Puddle  04:06

So you can choose what you're going to share. But I would love for you to tell us a bit of your story. Introduce us to yourself.

Ashley Abercrombie  04:14

Yes. Okay, great. Well, thank you. And you're so right, you don't get there without bruises and perhaps scars and lots of open wounds that need to be healed. I agree with you. I grew up in the southeast of America in North Carolina. And so a tiny little town that was very neighborly, very connected. I loved everything about how I grew up. The the one caveat to that is that in a small town, everybody knows you but nobody really knows you at all. So it's very easy to hide and it's very easy to pretend and perform or to be sort of pigeonholed into a role that you play in your family or in the community or at your school. And that was certainly true for me. I like to say that I have a PhD in pretending, like I knew how to turn it on, I knew how to, you know, pretend like I was okay when I was really not okay. And I did not know the power of reciprocity, nor did I have the capacity to be able to say to people who were coming to me to have their needs met, "I also have needs," and I didn't know how to open my heart up and share with others. And what that ended up leading me to is addiction. And so I struggled for years with addiction to, abuse of alcohol and drugs and perfectionism, dysfunctional relationships and eating disorder as a young person, in my late teens, early 20s. And I went off to college like that. And really sort of lost a lot of those small town support systems. You know, I went from a small town of 14,000 people to a campus of 28,000 people. And so learning how to navigate that, learning how to stand up in my own skin, learning how to be, you know, a very small fish in a very big pond, you know, was challenging for me and more challenging than I understood that it would be. And I think at the age of 21, I made the decision to change my life. And the only way I knew how to change my life was to run away from it. I wish I could tell you that I did better, but I didn't. I was like, where's the furthest place I can go from here? Los Angeles sounds nice. And I moved 3000 miles across the country, to a city where I knew no one. And just really hoped, you know, like on a little grace and a little prayer, I hoped that maybe I could start over again. And unfortunately, what I realized is that everywhere you go, there you are. And I could not escape myself and I could not escape my issues. And I could not escape the bad choices I had made. Nor could I escape the difficult things that had happened to me, things that I was a victim of, from sexual assault, to being in bad relationships, and to having some issues that I needed to deal with in my family of origin. And all the things that we kind of run away from or that we just frankly, are not taught how to deal with, you know? We don't grow up learning how to deal with trauma, or how to manage a budget or how to do the simple things that we need to do on a daily basis as a human being, like you don't often learn that in your home. How to engage in difficult conversations, how to have conflict with loved ones, how to move through stress cycles, you don't learn any of this growing up. And so I had to figure it out the hard way. And what ended up happening in Los Angeles, which, you know, in America, many people might think it's like modern day Babylon. So they want to, like, you know, stay far away from it. And they think maybe you can't find God and what they would consider a godless city. But I ended up working as a waitress at a restaurant staff and several people on that staff went to a church that I then became a part of for 15 years. But no one ever invited me to church, they would just come out with me at nighttime, I would drink, I would party, I'd do drugs, I would rage. And sometimes they would drive me home, drink Diet Cokes, they just cared for me, they invited me out to dinners, they invited me out for coffees. And that's how I became interested in their faith. And I had a little bit of faith experience, I was brought up in a Southern Baptist, not the kind that you're thinking about, not like the American version of Southern Baptists that you see in the news. But, you know, it was a very lovely faith community full of elderly people, full of people who were, you know, economically poor. And there wasn't a lot of political rhetoric or talk in that church. So it was a lovely space for me, but I was the only person who went in my family. And so it didn't stick kind of outside of Sundays, other than watching the woman who took me kind of go around our neighborhood and care for others and drop off food and, you know, sit with people who were stuck in their homes, and she taught me a lot about how faith is is a is an action. It's not just something you do for an hour on Sundays. But I think you know, coming out to LA and meeting those folks who were so kind of good just made me feel like man, maybe God can love me like I am. And maybe I don't have to be perfect to be loved. And maybe I don't have to clean myself up before I can get God's attention. And their love just really empowered me to feel like grace was real. And I remember asking them, can I come to church with you? Because I've never met believers who are not judgmental, who did not call me names, who did not have a long list of the seven things I should do to make my life right with Jesus, you know? And I think because of that, my heart started to tenderize and open up to something other than what I had experienced. And my heart began to open up and tenderize towards real relationship. And I ended up meeting this wonderful girl. And I remember she called once and just said, "Hey, how are you doing?" And I did what I always used to do, which was I answered very quickly, "I'm fine. How are you?" And I flipped the conversation so that that person would start talking about themselves and I wouldn't have to really be seen or known or be vulnerable or actually share where I was. And instead of taking that she totally called my BS and showed up at my house 10 minutes later and was like, "Hey, you're not fine." And I just fell on the floor crying and I was like, "You're absolutely right. I'm not fine." And for the first time that opened up and shared kind of my story of sexual assault, my story about abortion, I shared that I was struggling with an eating disorder and I really didn't know how to kick the addictions that I was dealing with. And her response to that, again, was not to try to fix me, save me, or change me. But it was to be present with me, to offer me safe space to grieve and to grieve with me. And again, it was another opportunity for God to use a person to show me that I don't have to be perfect to be loved, that he's going to be with me no matter where I am, and that I don't have to clean myself up to come to him. So I know that's sort of a long winded background. But what that really did is begin to show me that my humanity is an okay thing. And that we don't suddenly arrive at this place where we have no issues, no problems and pain, like that is not actually what Christianity is, it is not a formula that we can follow to build the life we want to live. And none of us are exempt from going through hard things. None of us are exempt from dealing with things we don't want to deal with. None of us are exempt from the surprises of life, whether it is a medical diagnosis, or a loved one does something that's really hurtful, we go through a betrayal, we personally make a mistake that's detrimental to others. I think understanding that that is part of the human experience for as long as we're living it, was very freeing for me, because then I stopped chasing perfectionism and I stopped chasing the mountaintop, and I was able to take life as it comes. And years later, you know, I like to say recovery is for life, like you don't ever kind of get out of it. But years later, I did get married. And I have three little children who are seven, four, and one I've lived in Los Angeles and Manhattan. And then we're back in Southern California for the last couple of years. And it's been a wild and beautiful journey. And, you know, faith has, my faith has evolved over time, my love for people has changed. My love for justice has been fortified through kind of the fire of my own life experiences and my desire to do good in the world. And I think that we all have this wonderful opportunity to cultivate rich and meaningful relationships. And in a world that is polarized and divided, we can be the people who can hold space for nuance and story. And we can hold the tensions of transition. And we can do better at suspending our judgment, and actually loving people the way God would, loving even our enemies. And so I think that that's what really inspired this book is my own 20 year life experience in the faith and the difficult story that I personally have lived and watching others go through difficult times. I wanted to normalize that for people more than we normalize it in the church.

Jonathan Puddle  12:31

Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. That is...

Ashley Abercrombie  12:34

You're welcome.

Jonathan Puddle  12:35

Okay, I think like my soul just needed your that... my soul needed you today.

Ashley Abercrombie  12:42

Awww.

Jonathan Puddle  12:42

I have just come off brunch with a friend where we are just kind of like, is there any hope for the church?

Ashley Abercrombie  12:49

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  12:50

And you know, you just laid out a really beautiful apologetic for... there are some decent people who are just trying to love. And care.

Ashley Abercrombie  13:02

Yes.

Jonathan Puddle  13:02

and so much of my energy and I recognize yours from your reading is is spent in calling the church to a higher standard and calling people to reflect the one whose name they claim to carry.

Ashley Abercrombie  13:16

Yes.

Jonathan Puddle  13:17

But that's just really nice to hear that you like you were loved into wholeness by some people.

Ashley Abercrombie  13:25

Yes.

Jonathan Puddle  13:26

And not judged to further destruction.

Ashley Abercrombie  13:29

No.

Jonathan Puddle  13:30

So thank you for sharing that that. Yes, that's just what I needed to hear. I don't know about anyone else.

Ashley Abercrombie  13:34

I'm so glad.

Jonathan Puddle  13:38

Do we underestimate the transformative power of love?

Ashley Abercrombie  13:44

Yes. Are you kidding? Of course! And I think most of life is kind of something I've been letting float around in my life is that I mean, in my mind recently, it's just that most of life is mediating fear. And so some of the reason I think we don't tap fully into the transformative power of love is that we are afraid because that transformative power of love requires a level of honesty of engagement with reality, not living in the past, not fantasizing about the future, not saying one day when I will, we will, you know, when this happens, this will happen. But really going, I'm going to take life as it comes. And I'm gonna be present right where I am. And whether I like my life or not, I'm going to return to love and I think it requires believers to really operate in the fruit of the Holy Spirit. You know that love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self control. And I don't know how it is where you are in Canada. But here I think very often, when people think about the fruit of the Spirit, they think about things. They're like, well, I'm going to, you know, have this great house or I'm going to get the spouse that I want or I'm going to be able to finally afford that car. I'm going to get that promotion at my job and we think of these things as blessings. And so when we run into spaces where relationships are hard or situations are hard or we do not get the promotion that we wanted, our life does not turn out the way that we hoped, then we are stuck in perpetual disappointment because we don't actually understand what love is. And we don't actually understand how to bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit, regardless of our context, which is what we're called to as believers. And in the book of John, 13–17, those are the chunks, the chapters of the Bible that I could hang my hat on, like, if I could just pull out a chunk, that would be it. It's the last sort of words of Jesus, the way he loves and imparts to his disciples, how he wants them to be in the world. He serves them, he loves them, he cares for them. And he tells them, like three things are going to define to the world that you belong to me. And that's the way that you love each other, the fruit that you bear, and then the unity that you display. And Jesus does not describe unity as assimilation. So that's a very important distinction here, because his disciples were all over the map: they were fishermen, they were doctors, they were all kinds of different types of people from different classes in society, different roles and sectors. And he brought them together, he was the glue that held them together. And I think looking at that, that, to me, is the transformative power of love, like to serve people who don't deserve it. He demonstrates that through, you know, Peter bucking him saying, "No, you will not serve me," he's like, "You have to let me serve you. It's going to be a problem if you don't." And he finally says, "Okay, yes, I will lay down my pride and let you serve me." And then Judas, you know, he gets down on his knees and serves him even though he doesn't deserve it. And you think about the fruit of the Holy Spirit that he asked them to display? Like, how do we do that? When you're economically impoverished for a season or a time or a lifetime? How do you display the fruit of the Holy Spirit? How do you lay down greed and pride? If you have everything in the world that you could possibly ever need, in order to bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit? Like we all it doesn't matter where we are in our life, we have to be able to do that. And then how do I walk together with others? Even if they don't look like me? They don't vote like me. They don't think like me. If we're all the Beloved Community of Christ, how do we speak the truth to one another, and then also cultivate this rich community that Jesus is asking us to cultivate. And that is the power of transformative love. And I like to write about it because I experienced it. The people in my life, we were all waiting tables at a local restaurant in LA, it's not like we were fancy people. It's not like, you know, we fully understood, you know, we had all these big blessings. And we were just, you know, doing big time things. I was like, no, we're normal people. And in that normal place, they display to me the love of God, and they walked together. And when they had disagreements, they walked through them. And when they didn't agree with me, they still loved me. And they beared the fruit of the Holy Spirit, regardless of what they had. And so that is the way I've been loved. And I know that that's the thing that changes people, I think that you can preach at people all day. And I think that you can tell them what to do all day. And what I really believe that is, is an avoidance of intimacy. I really believe that I think people Christians avoid intimacy by telling people what to do, and trying to use control and fear. And back to mediating fear, that's not who we're called to be in this world. We are supposed to love one another. We are not supposed to find ways to scare people into obeying God. And he does not need a lawyer. Okay, he is God all by himself, like he does not need a defense team. Do you know what I mean? Like, the Holy Spirit is way more powerful than any of us could be. And so I think recognizing all those things, has really been life changing for me and my faith experience.

Jonathan Puddle  18:20

Yes, yes. That's so good. I'm trying to think... because I also talk and think and write and preach a lot about the transformative power of love. And I'm trying to think about why now, given that you've eloquently stated your why. And I feel like for me, it was it came about from like a cognitive dissonance, when what I was experiencing in church... wasn't bad, on the whole, there was some really great stuff. And I'm really thankful to the traditions that I was formed in for what they gave me.

Ashley Abercrombie  18:52

Yes.

Jonathan Puddle  18:53

But one of the things that... I grew up in, in a very charismatic context that was like, yep, you and Holy Spirit, you in the Holy Spirit, you in the Holy Spirit, but it'll always look like this. You and the Holy Spirit will always look like this. And so I'm like, welll... A plus B? No, like, this doesn't work. And so as I was like, Well, I have I have spent time in the secret place as I've been instructed....

Ashley Abercrombie  19:16

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  19:18

It turns out that the fruit that's coming out in my life is offending people. And so, my, the, the, the default behavior of the illusory false self I have spent so many years carefully constructing around myself is like very committed to the idea that I am so lovable and wonderful, and that if I can just painstakingly just convey my heart better in ever better language, then no, we will never disagree about anything. And we will see that we all agree about everything. So A.) I I would have a painful existential crisis whenever anyone else came up with me with their big negative energy. And, and B. my theology was so tightly woven to the rightness of my leaders.

Ashley Abercrombie  20:17

Oh, yes, I've been there.

Jonathan Puddle  20:19

And I. And it's so funny because my wife, my wife has a very different formative thing. And for her, she's kind of like, What? You mean, you thought a human would be right? What is wrong with you? So you can spot the Enneagram Eight, and I'm the Enneagram Two...

Ashley Abercrombie  20:34

That's our dynamic, but I'm the eight. My husband is the two.

Jonathan Puddle  20:37

Awesome. So your husband and I can get together...

Ashley Abercrombie  20:40

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  20:41

Drinks and tears, later.

Ashley Abercrombie  20:45

Yes.

Jonathan Puddle  20:48

But I think I think that love. Like, I was obviously in the midst of that I was also transformed by love in a very intimate, kind of like, just the Father and Holy Spirit, and Jesus meeting me and doing His work in me and like,

Ashley Abercrombie  21:02

yes,

Jonathan Puddle  21:03

hey, like, I'm with you. And I'm proud of you. And you're on a good path, keep going. And so then all of my talk about love has unfortunately been interwoven into this very complex, I need to prove this to you.

Ashley Abercrombie  21:19

Right.

Jonathan Puddle  21:20

And so I use these non-loving, authoritative ways. I tell you the number of manuscripts I've written about love, in non-loving controlling, authoritative language, I'm so glad those books haven't been published. Whooohoo.

Ashley Abercrombie  21:35

Yes. I think it's so real what you're talking about, because, you know, I've been there, I've dealt with the same things. And I think that, you know, we all go through this rich process with love, which it seems like you're, you're on the other side of this too, like me. But I think that that's how it starts, you know, love needs to be defined at first, and you're very uncomfortable. Most people are very uncomfortable with mystery, most people are very uncomfortable with the vastness of God. And with not being able to make sense of some things. I think that it's very human to want to define and make sense of and direct and lead and, you know, it's, it's less natural to us to go, "God is a great mystery. I do not understand everything that happens in my life, I do not know why you're going through this, I actually don't think there's a good reason," I think, you know, it's like, those are the things that don't come as naturally to us. But I think the longer you engage with human beings on a in a very close way, that's why they say proximity is power. Because when you really engage with people on a regular basis, and an intimate way, and they tell you what their hurts are, and they tell you the pain that they're going through, and they talk to you about their real life, they feel unafraid to share with you. I think that's when we can realize how difficult life is for most people. And that all of our great ideas about love and our great platitudes about faith don't always hold up in those environments. And I think that's the power of journeying past the time where it's you and God, because I've needed that, I think that's necessary, and then engaging with that interdependent necessity that God wired and created us for. It's like, you know, we're interdependent on one another, we actually need each other. And that's the only way I can fully see God, is to fully see you and to fully let you see me. I think that's the the key and the power to unlocking the good grace of God. Yes, yes. So good. So good. Okay, I want to, I want to quote you, from your book. This is my introduction to you. In your introduction to this book, and this is what I loved, right off the bat. "In these pages, I want it to be sweet. I really did. I wanted to encourage you how to live and move and breathe in this world just like Jesus did. I will do my best to do that. But the truth is, I'm not sweet. There's no time for that. The days are urgent. The church in America is a cesspool of sin and hypocrisy. And there's a reckoning running along the same fault line of awakening." And I was like, yeah, please tell me more. That's only page 16! I'm in! "We need to honestly own that the American church has lost control of the narrative. Our witness is neither wanted nor respected." And obviously, you're writing in an American context to a probably American audience and that's right and but it's not limited to America right? Up here in Canada we'd love to believe that we don't have those same problems, eh. We don't have any racism up here, eh.  None!

Jonathan Puddle  24:44

But we do. And I mean, if you watch our recent news, there's just as much of a drive in people to, to bring what they think are good ends through forceful, violent, aggressive means. I love that you keep coming back to, like fear. Like, because I get that, right? Like I, we are, we're, we're trying to do the best we can to keep this show on the road and avoid fear and stay out of pain and try and stay alive, right? And and the principalities and powers are offering any number of comforts and promises of control and ways to mitigate the pain. And, and I feel like certainly many people who have discerned like something is wrong in the church, I feel like there is a easy out, to then homogenize to then get rid of the ones of the views that we don't like. And to just form a core of really great people that think like we think. So we are our church in the last two years of COVID has gone through this pruning, pruning process. Between our interpretation of Trumpism and theological disagreement and public health policy disagreement, we have probably about half the congregation size that we had two years ago. But I preached on Sunday, and I looked out across the room, and I just thought, so many people here do not agree on a great many things I can see the people who think COVID is a hoax, and where they sit, I can see the people who who are very afraid of COVID. And where they sit. I can see the young and the old. And I can see the ones who nod and smile when I talk about peaceful non-violence. And the ones who's who's like, I've never heard what are you talking about. But I feel like everybody in this room is more loyal to Jesus, then to each of their bits and pieces. And I couldn't have said that two years ago. And so I feel like for our little community, we've gone through a really horrifically painful pruning. But it's like, well, this could work. This group of people could learn to love each other.

Ashley Abercrombie  27:26

Yes.

Jonathan Puddle  27:27

This this may be, could grow. And not like because I'm interested in church growth, but like this could grow together. This could come into something even more beautiful than it like the more than the sum of its parts right now.

Ashley Abercrombie  27:41

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  27:42

And I feel encouraged at that. But but I'm also like, is, does this process require a pruning of a lot of people like, you know, do we do what do we do Ashley, for those whose eyes refuse to be open? And who haven't, I guess, had enough of the bruising and the loving? And like, do we just keep on going with those who are willing and ready? And like, do we just like wash our hands of the rest? Like what how? How does the church? I guess we go small, and we go back to basics. But I'm like what is the hope for? Obviously, you wrote this because you believe that that there's hope?

Ashley Abercrombie  28:24

Yes, yes.

Jonathan Puddle  28:25

What does that look like in your head?

Ashley Abercrombie  28:28

So I love this question so much. And part of the reason that I love it is because it allows me to talk about the recovery journey. You know, I've been sober now for actually 20 years this month. And so, thank you. And I think part of what I've learned in recovery is that, you know, you can't change anybody, I can't change them. I can't force anything on anyone, like people have to make their own choices. And I think in the evangelical context, not the church that I grew up in, but the church that I was a part of, for a really long time, I learned that you're supposed to basically like, walk with people until they get it. And I think this is a terrible way of love. Because it's always love with an agenda. And I'm not saying that we shouldn't walk with people, to love them and be gracious to them, and to be kind with them. But if our whole goal is like... for them to clean their life up, and that's the reason we're going to spend our time with them. And that's the reason we're devoting ourselves to them, then our love is about us. It's not actually about the other person. And it's not a right way to love others, in my opinion. And I'm sure you know, many theologians or whoever, you know, church leaders might disagree with some of the things that I'm saying. But what's been helpful here because same, you know, we we walked through, we've started pastoring, a church in 2016 on Wall Street. And so in the summer of 2016, right before the presidential election, and kind of when things just started exploding here, all the stuff that was already under the surface. It's not like any one election just brought all this stuff to light or caused things to happen. It's like it was all here and same thing we watched so many people walk away, and we let them. And then when we moved to Southern California, my husband is still a pastor and works on a church staff. And same thing. We saw half the people go, you know, in 2020, because different people were upset about masks, they didn't think that we should do certain things, or they didn't believe we should talk about race, for example, that it was too political, that that's not biblical. You know, there were so many reasons that people made their choices to go. And what you have to do is let them. And I think the reason is, because it's not our job to convince anyone, it's not our job to force ourselves on anyone. And in fact, Jesus, when that would happen with the religious leaders of the day, he would just speak the truth to them and keep it moving, no matter what it cost him. He wasn't looking to have, you know, platform with them. He wasn't looking to have credibility with them, he was looking to love people in the way of true love, you know? And he demonstrated who the father is by the actions that he did. And so in my opinion, trying to convince people or trying to walk with them until they get it— and I'm talking specifically about believers here — is is not the way of love. I think that you're wasting time and energy. I also feel like those people cause significant amount of turmoil to pastors and church clergy leaders...

Jonathan Puddle  31:12

Absolutely!

Ashley Abercrombie  31:12

Because they're always complaining, they never bring solutions. They are uninterested in anything except having you do what they want you to do. And so I think that that, you know, it's, it's not the kind of love I personally want to cultivate in the Beloved Community of Christ.

Jonathan Puddle  31:29

We'll take a quick pause, so I can thank my patrons and let you know how to support the show. If you are enjoying this, if you've been enjoying it for a while or maybe you're a new fan, the best way to support the show is by joining me on Patreon. I know that lots of podcasters have their Patreon, maybe you're supporting a bunch of folks, that's fine. If you've got room in your budget, consider joining me as well. $3 a month, will get you in, it'll give you access to B-Sides for these episodes, as well as lots of other interesting content that I share just for my patrons. You'll find that at patreon.com/jonathanpuddle. Thank you to Catherine, who is my newest patron. Big love. Let's get back to the show.

Ashley Abercrombie  32:11

I have great hope for them. Because look at the life of Zacchaeus as one small example in the Bible, right? Like he had a major turnaround with God. He was greedy. He was a person who exploited people. And he had this massive turnaround. And so it's always possible that people who are stuck on themselves or have so enmeshed their faith with their politics or have so enmeshed their ideas of love with control, it is possible for them to find freedom. But I do not think it's my job as a Christian or as someone who's been in clergy leadership for a long time, to try to make them. And I'm thankful for recovery because otherwise I would have driven myself crazy over the last six years. But you watch that same same thing in the recovery circles. People come in, and they want to get sober, but they don't. So if you spend all of your time and energy trying to chase them, and trying to help them... that's why when you get a sponsor, it's set up so that the person who is who has the addiction is always responsible to call the sponsor, the sponsor actually doesn't reach out to the person with the addiction, because you want that person to make a conscious choice to change. And I think sometimes in the church, we forget that. It's like it's not my responsibility! You have to make a conscious choice to choose the beloved community where not everybody agrees with you, where we are not always that impressed with you. But we love you so much. You know, like, you're going to have that make that choice.

Jonathan Puddle  33:37

These are all the parts of your book that I hated. It's so good. You're so right. You're so right. I am I am. I discover, I think the core of my pride is you know, is I'm convinced I can change them.

Ashley Abercrombie  33:57

Yes. That's very insightful.

Jonathan Puddle  33:59

And I'm... we're foster parents. And so there's there's a whole layer of care that we provide to a child and we have a measure of relationship with the parent. And you know, you want you want wholeness...

Ashley Abercrombie  34:14

Yes.

Jonathan Puddle  34:14

You ideally want the child to be able to live in their family of origin if that is safe.

Ashley Abercrombie  34:20

Yep.

Jonathan Puddle  34:23

My mandate as a foster parent is for the child's safety and well being.

Ashley Abercrombie  34:29

Yes

Jonathan Puddle  34:29

As a pastor and... a lover. That's weird but whatever.

Ashley Abercrombie  34:35

That's right, no, I hear you.

Jonathan Puddle  34:36

I observe the humans falling through the cracks of the safety nets of our cities. And that frustrates me ultimately more, I guess, in my most mindful moments, the frustration is less about her pain and more about my the fact that I actually can't solve the problem.

Ashley Abercrombie  34:55

Right? Yes. You're saying it You're saying the whole truth that we all deal with. Because when you love somebody, you want the best for them. And you want them to be able to make choices that will enable them to live the life they say they want, or to, you know, in the loneliness that they suffer from by making different relational choices or to, you know, repair a breach by taking a right next step. And I think that, again, it just has to be... God loves us so much that he gives us free will. And he doesn't remove himself from our lives, like he is always able to be present. You know, he's always able to love us, he's always able to be close. But I think that it is really difficult to recognize that people have their own agency, and they have to choose the next step that they take. And I know it had to be extremely painful to watch my family, for my family members to watch me fumble through that four years of brutal addiction and terrible life choices and bad relationships. I know it had to. I can't even imagine honestly, what my mother was experiencing watching this whole thing. But I think that, you know, being able to choose for myself is actually what made the healing last. It's what made me become whole is because I was choosing it for myself. And nobody made me, nobody pressured me, nobody forced it on me. People tried for sure I have that eight rebellious streak in me. So I'm like, don't tell me what to do. You know, so that that's probably also a little helpful here. But...

Jonathan Puddle  36:29

Like the prodigal, the father in the prodigal son, literally underwrites, financially underwrites his son's destructive journey.

Ashley Abercrombie  36:39

Exactly.

Jonathan Puddle  36:40

But it's the outworking of the son's agency that brings him to the point of saying, "Hold on. This is garbage. I'm going home."

Ashley Abercrombie  36:51

Yes.

Jonathan Puddle  36:52

And I love that but leaving room for that to actually happen in the lives of people. Oh man.

Ashley Abercrombie  37:01

It's rough.

Jonathan Puddle  37:02

Yeah, okay, so let's talk conflict. brass tacks, because that's where Jonathan Puddle slides out of the room. Like I, I, I would just not talk about it. And that's my family of origin's...

Ashley Abercrombie  37:19

Yes,

Jonathan Puddle  37:19

way of dealing with things. My mother taught me dutifully how to stuff and not to talk about the problems. We have great conversations now that we gone through good therapies. So do we have to all agree? And if we don't all agree, like, are there some practical things that like, for let's say, somebody who's, okay, either pastoring or just looking to foster love and peace in their own family? Like, okay, we've got COVID deniers and COVID fearful folk in the same room?

Ashley Abercrombie  37:53

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  37:53

As an example. Is there a time where you have to lay out some ground rules or to set the stage for like, here's how we're going to move forward. I know that even sounds like you're acting from a position of authority being able to even say that, so obviously I come to this with a bunch of presuppositions.

Ashley Abercrombie  38:09

Right.

Jonathan Puddle  38:09

So I'm going to shut up, and you're going to talk to me about conflict.

Ashley Abercrombie  38:12

Yes. Okay, well, I think that one of the first things I would say is that no one is born able to handle conflict. So anyone listening to this, who's like, I just can't do it well. You know, you're not alone in that. Again, it's not something you get taught growing up. Most families are not in conflict, healthy homes, they are either avoiding it or they're exploding, or there's some combination of the two. And I think that we also have to recognize the context that we're in, whether we are talking about church and what our role is in the church, or we're at work or we're in our home life. Like for example, I don't mind conflict anywhere except in my close relationships, then I don't want to deal with it, I don't want to talk about it. I don't want I want to just move on, I want to ignore the elephant in the room. But I could stop you in the street and have a wonderful confrontation and just be like, this is awesome, you know, so it's not... Conflict comes pretty naturally to me, except in my most intimate relationships. So it's also important to recognize that we're all some sort of combination of nerves and fear and anxiety, depending on the context that we're in. So you need to know that. I think when it comes to, hey, we're all disagreeing about, you know, we have COVID deniers and we have people who are absolutely terrified of COVID. And they're in the same room, I think it is, you know, in order to have safe space. And you could do this break this down to your home life to with your partner and your kids, or your roommates or whatever your living situation is, I think it's important to establish, "Here's how we respect one another." So in conflict, we are not going to call names, for example. If somebody wants to wear a mask, the basic respect thing to do here is to stay six feet away from them and not yell at them about their choice. And vice versa, if somebody decides I'm not going to wear a mask, and that's okay in the space that I'm in, then I'm going to, you know, respect your boundary, but I'm going to have my own boundaries as well. So it also comes back to choice and free agency and making sure that we're able to respect one another. And I think that that's where Christians really get in trouble is because we don't know basic respect. We don't know how to respect other people's choices. And we also don't do differentiation, well, which is something I write about in the book, we don't know how to say, "Okay, I end here and you start there". And we're not enmeshed, I can make a choice, and you can make a choice. And that's great. I'm gonna respect you, you're gonna respect me. And far and wide, I think people outside the church are a little bit better at this, you know, and, and I think that we do need to do better. Because when you have healthy differentiation, you don't roll your feelings and your choices and your beliefs and your thoughts onto someone else. And you don't allow them to roll those on top of you. It's like, I can stand strong in my own skin, because I have clear boundaries, and I am able to respect who you are and what you say you believe. I think there is a time where beliefs become harmful and need to be confronted. If there is abusive behavior, if there is someone who's very clearly displaying racist behavior, or they are saying something through name calling, or making a gross assumption about a group of people, like those are the times where you have to confront it, you cannot let it pass. If you feel too shy to do it in a public setting, you have to pull them aside later and say, "Hey, that language was really inappropriate. And when you use it, it causes people pain. Have you thought about that? Do you know where your belief about this people group comes from? Do you understand what what words are coming out of your mouth? Can you help me understand where you learned that, and why it feels so true for you." So even asking those hard questions, having confrontation, and then just being willing to be curious. And something we practice in our home, I'm going to give you just a basic, I feel like I've been a little all over the map. But I want to give you a little basic one that we practice in our marriage, is just when we have to have a difficult conversation are we need to confront an issue, one of the things that we'll start with is, "I really don't know how to have this conversation, and I feel afraid to have it. To just be honest with you. And so what I'm asking for is your grace, I'm gonna fumble through it. I'm gonna mess up some of the words. I'm not gonna say it all right, but I'm hopeful that if we engage in this conversation, it's going to bring us closer." And so we just start there. So we just are diffusing barriers, we are letting the other person know I'm not perfect. I'm not going to say it right, because I don't know how to say it right, I just need to get it out, so that they're not defensive when we say the wrong things. And obviously, that only works in a in a semi-healthy relationship. You can't do that with everyone. But I do think it's important to sort of set the tone for basic respect, and neither one of us is perfect, but we need to have this conversation because we love each other, we value each other and we want to find a way to move forward together.

Jonathan Puddle  43:05

It's it really seems disturbingly like you are implying to me that conflict can be redemptive.

Ashley Abercrombie  43:11

Oh, yes. And even enjoyable.

Jonathan Puddle  43:15

Gahhh...

Ashley Abercrombie  43:16

It's true. It's true, I'm telling you, because on the other side of it, here's what you get: understanding and connection. And those are the two things we want anyway! It's why we avoid fights because we're afraid we're going to lose that, we're afraid we're going to be misunderstood. And we're going to lose relationship and connection. But if you can push through it, you know, even if you're in a space where you need a mediator or it is a larger group of people, it's not someone that's very healthy you know, there's there's different things that you might need a little help here. But that's what you get, is connection and understanding, the two things we all want and desperately crave.

Jonathan Puddle  43:50

That's so good. Ashley has a chapter called "When Conflict Calls" which you can imagine is pretty much what I read after the introduction. As iften... this is this is Ashley, "As often as possible, learn to say what you think. Learn to ask for what you need. Learn to ask for help. That's responsible adulting and we need more of it in our world." So like in one paragraph you summarized the painful journey of the last eight years of my life and marriage, because my my Enneagram Eight wife is like "Well what what do you need? Like like you're not happy? Okay, fine, what do you need?" And my Two-ness that is so enmeshed itself with the needs of others, that I'm unaware that I have needs...

Ashley Abercrombie  44:40

Yes.

Jonathan Puddle  44:41

I never speak unless I have just something super encouraging and great to say which is also partly to make me indispensable to my community so that they never don't need me.

Ashley Abercrombie  44:51

Yep.

Jonathan Puddle  44:54

 "As often as possible, learn to say what you think." And that I think is really beautiful. Is really challenging. I want to learn how to do that better. A couple of pages later you have this affirmation, your chapters often end with sort of like this reflective, even meditative kind of moment. And and you start with this affirmation "Conflict is normal." Again, I can feel like every cell in my body wanting to not live in the particular universe you live in.

Ashley Abercrombie  45:27

Yes. Yes, I can understand it. Yes. I mean, I have been conflict avoidant too. So that's, I'm not sharing this as like someone who is has been so well versed in it my entire life, I share this as someone who was like I said, a master pretender in dysfunctional relationships, very out of touch with my needs, because I thought the only way that people would love me is if I could do things for them. And so I understand this. And same with my husband as a Two, you know, he, he, he only knows how stressed he is, when he gets like an ulcer or his back goes out, like something will happen in his body that flags him like, hey, something is really wrong here. And you need to deal with your stress. And so I just want people to know, like, it's normal, like it is normal to resist conflict, it is normal to have conflict, it doesn't mean your relationship is jacked up, it doesn't mean you need to run away, it just means that life is a series of conflicts. And if we can make it more normal, then we won't run so hard, and we won't feel so stressed. We can just say that thing that needs to be said, and engage with one another in a way that's healthy and true. And that I think, again, it pushes us towards connection and understanding—the thing we want the most in the world.

Jonathan Puddle  46:44

There we go. Friends, you heard it promised by Ashley Abercrombie, that if you simply do the hard thing and move towards those you're currently avoiding...

Ashley Abercrombie  46:55

Yes!

Jonathan Puddle  46:55

...there's a possibility, at the very least, that they will reciprocate in kind. I'd love if you would pray for us whether we are conflict averse or conflict prone. And everyone in between. But before we do so, any any further thoughts or anything that you want to leave us with?

Ashley Abercrombie  47:17

I just think the days that we are living in are so difficult. And if you're out there feeling isolated, or lonely, or feeling like how am I going to get through this? I think I want to I want to just remind you that you're not alone. And that you're not the only one who's dealing with this, and that you're not the only one who has these sort of scary overwhelming thoughts, if I could just normalize that for you. That most people you know, are also having the same experience. And I think that's helpful, because it can feel like I should just be able to get back to normal, I should just be able to, you know, do this, that or the other thing, and No, you shouldn't. We've gone through a lot. And so I think grace, grace on grace on grace, you're not alone. And you're not the only one. So let me pray for you guys. Jesus, I thank you that you are a very present help in time of need. And I thank you that you are the comforter and the advocate and our guide. I thank you, Lord, that when we don't understand everything, what we have is your presence. And God I pray for people who might feel isolated and lonely and feeling like there's no way out of some of the situations that they're in, or feeling like there's going to be no end to the contentious part of our world, feeling stressed about global crises, feeling stressed about national things that they're dealing with, feeling stressed about relationships that they're in, at home, at work at school. God I just pray your peace that surpasses all human understanding. I pray God, because you said that, you know, we would have trials in this world, that we would go through hard things and and you also said not to fear because you have overcome the world. And so I thank you God that there would be a great sense of peace washing over people right now. I pray God great grace in their relationships, I pray God that you give them the capacity to get up every morning and put their feet on the ground. I pray, Lord, that they would understand how loved they are God, that grace would literally flood their life. And I pray for relationships, a soft place to land, good people who can suspend judgment, who are healthy, who want to be deeply connected. And God I pray for ministers who are listening, clergy leaders, pastors, who just need a break, who need a respite, God, who do not have the wisdom that they need. Lord, I pray that you give them the peace that they don't have to have it, God that you have it. And I pray that they would feel released to direct people to you. I pray they grow and letting people go and ending relationships that need to be ended, and pursuing relationships that need to be pursued. And I pray God that they be reminded that in the people they serve and love, Lord, that you are the glue, that they don't have to hold the universe together, that that's your job. And so, God I pray freedom and great grace. And Lord, we love you and we trust you. We don't understand everything. But God, we trust you. In Jesus' name, amen.

Jonathan Puddle  50:07

Amen. Thank you, Ashley. Friends, if you want to go and order her book, "Love is the Resistance: Learn to disagree, resolve the conflicts you've been avoiding and create real change," you will find that linked in the show notes at JonathanPuddle.com. You'll also find it in the description if your podcast listening app has that feature. So, wonderful to be with you again. Lots more exciting interviews coming up over the next little while. Let me know how this sort of monthly / four weekly rhythm is working for you. I wish I had time to be doing more, between foster care and writing and the other things I need to do to feed my family. I'm struggling to be able to do more than about one a month. So just let me know how that's working for you. Love to connect on social media @JonathanPuddle. You'll find me on all the platforms, and Patreon of course. Alright, have a wonderful day my friends grace and peace to you. We'll talk soon. Byebye.