#140: Re-Parenting through Hope & Belonging (with Mariko Clark & Rachel Eleanor)

In episode 140 of The Puddcast, we discuss spiritual and emotional growth with Mariko Clark and Rachel Eleanor, authors of The Book of Belonging. We explore the journey of creating a Story Bible that emphasizes representation, inclusion, and gentle parenting practices. Mariko and Rachel reflect on the personal and communal impact of trust, intuition, and vulnerability, sharing their experiences with parenting, deconstruction, and creative collaboration. This conversation is an invitation to embrace hope and embodied spirituality as we navigate our complex journeys of faith and belonging.

Order The Book of Belonging:Bible Stories for Kind and Contemplative Kids, by Mariko Clark & Rachel Eleanor.
Learn more about the community forming around The Book of Belonging here.

Listen to Jonathan’s recent interview with Tara Boothby, of Sojourn Psychology.

Support the show and my other work, at jonathanpuddle.com/support
Check out my trauma-informed 30-day devotional, You Are Enough: Learning to Love Yourself the Way God Loves You.

Grab my latest book, Mornings with God: Daily Bible Devotional for Men (good for women too)

Find every book or resource I’ve talked about recently on my Amazon storefront, in Canada, the United States or the United Kingdom.

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Transcription

[00:00:09] Jonathan: This is episode 140 of The Puddcast. I thought I would add a little intro here for everyone because it's been a few months again. Last episode we reflected, Tryphena and I, on some things I learned on sabbatical with my family. It's now been a year since we left on sabbatical, which is wild to me that we've been home already six months and since I spoke with you all last time here, it's, there's been some updates.

[00:00:39] Jonathan: So last episode we recorded in October, just a few weeks before I started full-time work again. So I am back in IT, which is something I did, I dunno, 15 years ago and was not something I really anticipated getting back into. But things went a direction that we didn't anticipate and I ended up getting a job as an IT manager at a, uh, nearby appliance manufacturing company and.

[00:01:12] Jonathan: Guess what? It's awesome. I love it. I'm enjoying it so much. I tell you what; I miss the flexibility of my time to be able to offer podcasts and more Instagram content and things like that. I miss connecting with many of you more regularly, but I'm really happy. I'm really enjoying being back in IT and solving technical problems and uh, just having a bit more consistent income and being able to support my family that way. And I tell you, it does make these conversations so much more special when they happen. So I really do intend to keep putting stuff out there for you. But at this point it's just kind of when it happens, it happens.

[00:01:59] Jonathan: So I am so excited to share this episode with you. Before we get there, I just wanna let you know I was on a really great podcast, recently with Tara Boothby. She is a Canadian psychologist and we talk all about the psychology of God, the psychological impact God has on us. We wax quite philosophical about what it means to be here on this earth in these fragile forms, especially in this current moment where things are scary and unstable and um, and maybe we feel like that we've actually lost trust in institutions, in leaders, in things we could take for granted about the way our country's related to one another. It's a scary, unstable time and so we reflect on maybe what we should be doing in scary, unstable times. And I know for me it really just means holding my family close and caring for them and equipping them to love people well. So if you want to go have a listen to that podcast, uh, I'll put it in the show notes and check out Sojourn Psychology podcast with Tara Boothby. She's got some other wonderful guests on, and a lot of folks you may have heard on this show she has had on her show. She's a lot of fun.

[00:03:19] Jonathan: So, uh, book news, , I'm in the final stages of You Are Enough: Teen Edition. It's been with readers for a few months and I am, uh, just about to get back into the final round of editing for that once I've got my feedback from everybody. And then in the next little while, keep an eye out. 2025 for You Are Enough: Teen Edition. I'm very excited for that to happen.

[00:03:45] Jonathan: So here we are, episode 140, and we are talking all about the Book of Belonging. This is a delightful new Story Bible from Mariko Clark and Rachel Eleanor. And, uh, I've been following them on socials for a few years now. And this book, if you can't if you're not on video, it's just a absolutely exquisite beautiful children's story Bible that is really representational, full of brown skinned Jews and Jesus doesn't have blonde hair and blue eyes, and it's full of stories about girls, and boys, too. But anyway, there's so much that's really great here. I had been longing to have this conversation with Mariko and Rachel for a really long time. And then we had to reschedule it a few times, but uh, finally got it recorded and it's been in the can waiting for me to have time to edit it. So please, uh, sit back, relax, and enjoy another vulnerable, intimate conversation around the importance of representation in scripture. Seeing ourselves- especially for females and young females -in the Bible. And knowing that God loves all of us. I know that sounds simple, but just just wait for the first few stories in this and you'll understand what I'm getting at. Alright, friends, check the show notes for all the links to everything and here we go.

[00:05:17] Jonathan: Welcome back to The Puddcast with oh four people. This is so exciting. I love when it's more than than three. It's like just the matrix of interconnection is that much more so, uh, a big, big welcome of course, to Tryphena. Thank you for being here with me once again tonight. Wrangling the children and allowing you to be in the cedar boxed room

[00:05:43] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: I am excited to be back.

[00:05:46] Jonathan Puddle: and huge welcome to Mariko and Rachel.

[00:05:49] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: Yay.

[00:05:49] Mariko Clark: Thank you. We're so thrilled to be here.

[00:05:52] Rachel Eleanor: Thank you so much.

[00:05:53] Jonathan Puddle: I have been following the two of you and the work around The Book of Belonging since I think early Kickstarter. I don't quite remember exactly when we all crossed paths, but I remember looking at the Kickstarter, A. Because I was like, there's no good Canadian postage rates. And I was, I was all up, I was all up in your space, but I was like, hot damn. I love the sound of this. I like stalked through all of your posts. And I was like, oh, I really like these people. And then, you know, a Kickstarter turns into a whole publishing thing and now it's two, three years later and, uh, "hey, we would love to interview you sometime." Turns somehow into reality at the end of 2024.

[00:06:44] Mariko Clark: I know. Can you believe that it's been so long. When I think about that, I'm like, really? It feels like just yesterday I was DMing you and meeting Rachel for the first time, or even just introducing this concept to the internet and yeah, I just like, it's wild to me that it's 2024 already. That it exists in the world and we're talking about it.

[00:07:08] Jonathan Puddle: And not only does it exist, it is gorgeous.

[00:07:12] Mariko Clark: Thank you.

[00:07:13] Jonathan Puddle: I expected it to be good. And like, honestly, I think for so many of us, like the bar is so low.

[00:07:20] Mariko Clark: It is sadly, yep,

[00:07:22] Jonathan Puddle: just, just have some women in it. I mean, if they're of color, that's fantastic. Like that's like we're really shooting for the moon now. Um, if the theology isn't poisonous. Um, you know, we're, we're used to so many disclaimers

[00:07:38] Jonathan Puddle: and, and, uh, you know, my refrain so often now with my children when they're like, that sounds weird. I'm like, yeah, it does. So, so where does that sit in your body? Tell me about that feeling of weirdness and, and you know, like, it's amazing the kids are like, so, you know, like, why did God drown all the, the babies?

[00:07:57] Jonathan Puddle: Like that just doesn't, that doesn't square with who I know God to be. And I'm like, "bingo".

[00:08:03] Mariko Clark: Pay attention.

[00:08:04] Jonathan Puddle: you, what I want you child, teenager of mine to do is always listen to that feeling of, "it doesn't square" and you can just pull that thread forever.

[00:08:15] Jonathan Puddle: So all that to say, I, I was like, okay, great. We're hitting, we're hitting all these good notes. And then I actually saw the finished product and I was overcome by the beauty of it.

[00:08:29] Mariko Clark: Rachel. And that is, uh, I mean, yeah, that's Rachel.

[00:08:33] Rachel Eleanor: Thank you so much.

[00:08:35] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: It is absolutely stunning. Like it's a book you can use as a coffee table book, but also so it's aesthetically pleasing to me and the children like loved the imagery. I was telling Rachel earlier the fact that there was just like a naked baby bum in it was amazing. It, it made everybody's day. But yeah, sorry. It was absolutely, it is absolutely gorgeous.

[00:09:00] Rachel Eleanor: Y'all that really Thank you. That means so much to me. Um, you might talk about this later, but beautiful project, beautiful process, very difficult time in my life, and probably the most challenging creative project I've taken on where I felt very far from my intuition sometimes. So I, I had to rely on Mari and just this, like this, like this guiding feeling I had sometimes. Um, and I was like, I can't tell if this looks good anymore. Like I'm in the throes of postpartum depression and all sorts of weirdness and I can't tell. Um, so it's lovely to be on the other side and be like, oh, good, the butts. I felt really strongly about the butts. I'm so glad that they are resonating with readers of all

[00:09:42] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: It's so interesting. Yes. Oh, it really is. It's so, first of all, I'm so sorry it was such a hard season and like post we've had the conversations about postpartum depression. It is absolutely no joke. Um, especially when entering parenthood and like motherhood, but it, I I find it so interesting when you talk about like, you not being able to trust your intuition, but like creativity was still like some, like there was a, there was some sort of a guiding force and like the creativity that existed within, you still found ways to come out in, like it feels in the two minutes I've gotten to know you. The imagery feels really authentic to who you are, so it feels really like just profound that even when you felt distant from yourself, what came out of you was still really authentic.

[00:10:29] Rachel Eleanor: Oh, I really appreciate that. Yeah. I have been really tender to use some of this language, but the word like feeling led, it definitely happens sometimes. And I think some of that sense of being far from my intuition was more like some of my superpowers just didn't feel like they were working. Like normally I'm like. can, I can run through a few concepts, feel really confident and get to work, and suddenly I would be spiraling and like just overworking images again and again and again and again. Like you, there's like images in the book, um, like the, um, not the nativity scene. The, um, I have good news angel scene.

[00:11:04] Rachel Eleanor: I did like 60 versions of that. I could not tell. And sometimes I would just be going down these strange rabbit holes. Um, and that's, that happened a lot of the time. There was a lot more of the voice of the editor during the process. For me, that's, and I think that was part of it. I was like, in a much darker place. And so it was great to, sometimes I'd have to just step back or check in with Mari or let something sit or I I had to say it all the time, finished not perfect.

[00:11:32] Rachel Eleanor: And, um, sometimes it was those, they just needed to be put in the fridge and come back to. So yeah, it was, um, it was not the like. Beautiful flowy process for sure. It felt like just crunching internally sometimes to get stuff out, but like, it, it's still, I'm like, wow, you know, also, like, I guess like, it's like birth, like also being pregnant and having a baby. Like not always super comfy, not always super flowy. There is a definite crunch at the end, um, and something beautiful happens.

[00:12:05] Jonathan Puddle: I've always found that interplay fascinating between flow, grind,

[00:12:11] Rachel Eleanor: Mm

[00:12:12] Jonathan Puddle: amount of time, even just in learning your creative art, the amount of intentional time to learn a tool so that you can not think about the tool and

[00:12:21] Jonathan Puddle: just reenter flow. Uh, Mariko, how about you? What was the creative process like, uh, on your end?

[00:12:30] Mariko Clark: It, the creative side of things comes very easily to me, and I think it's because it's sort like this project just felt like the most natural thing in the world because I was already doing it. Like so many parents in 2020 and on, like, you know, my kid's school was shut down, my daughter was doing kindergarten at home. Our, our churches weren't having services. So I'm all of a sudden her Sunday school teacher and her pastor and her therapist and her spiritual director, and I'm also all of those things for myself. And so I feel like so much of what I did with the book was just this, uh, this sort of battle out of imposter syndrome, that felt all at once really harrowing, but also really welcome. Almost this feeling of like, I'm not prepared for this. Like, surely not me, like looking around for the other adult in the room who was going to do the job, realizing that it's me, and then having this, this feeling of like, oh, but I, I, I actually have been doing this. I am equipped for this and it seems to be going okay. Is that really all that's required is for me to just be the person that I already was and do the thing I was already doing? Is that enough?

[00:13:54] Mariko Clark: Um, and just this really reassuring process of kind of like spirit meeting me there and being like, yeah, like all of that. Like you slum dog millionaired your way here, right? Like all these really bizarre tiny moments in your life, these things that didn't seem to matter have, have qualified you in a way for this situation. That like, I was already frustrated at the lack of female stories in my kids' Bible, so I was already just telling them from memory, like, Hey, there's this this woman named Lydia that you haven't heard about. Let me just tell you from my memory. Or like the, the five daughters of Zelophehad that became, um, sort of like our, our banner story, um, that we've heard, you know, from so many people. And even pastors being like, I literally ha thought you made this up. Um, just telling them these stories or even like as I'm going through their story Bibles sort of like redacting things or changing words.

[00:14:53] Mariko Clark: Like I feel like I was already doing that. And then to just be like, oh, I could just pour this into this other thing. And there's all of these people first in these like, um rippling communities saying like, no, I want that too. Oh, we're already doing that too. Thank God, you're like putting it into a book binding, right.

[00:15:12] Mariko Clark: Like I feel like it was just this like, um, labor of just like putting this thing out there that all of us were already doing, already wanted, already needed, and I just like, sort of got to be the packager of it. Um, but it, but that sort of continues to be our process. I don't know if you would agree, Rachel, but it's like, I feel like every step of this project has been us being like, here's this thing we made and then like all of these people being like, no, we already, we already knew and needed and like, thanks. But like we were already there and you, you, you met us where we were at. It's been this sort of, um, really inc.

[00:15:49] Jonathan Puddle: all hungry. You don't need to convince

[00:15:51] Mariko Clark: Yeah. Yeah. exactly. Like we're trying to Yeah, yeah, exactly. Trying to sell this book and be like, Hey, have you heard of this thing? They're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, like say less. I feel like it's just been this, this process of people like, yeah, obvi I'm sold.

[00:16:02] Mariko Clark: Like, just give it to me. Um, and that's not to say like, oh, we did such an amazing thing that people already wanted, but more just like this mystical situation of like, the Spirit already having been at work in so many different ways for so long that we sort of just like showed up. It's like when someone's cleaning the kitchen and it's like already basically done, and you're like, how can I help at a, at a party? And then they're like, all right. I guess just like, put him in the cabinet. It kind of felt like that, that like Rachel and I showed up and we're like, how can we help? And the Spirit was like, I don't know. Just like, you know, put, put it in a, put it in a hardcover. Um, in, in the, in the most life-giving way.

[00:16:41] Jonathan Puddle: That's, that's so cool. That makes perfect sense to me Our last episode, Tryphena and I just, were kind of riffing on this idea that God is at work and if God is a tricky word for you, then just say love is at work and, and. And it seems to me that love is working. And there's all kinds of scary things in the world there, but there always has been. And uh, it, it really seems to me that humanity is going somewhere and it's somewhere good. And we take two steps forward and couple steps back, and it's very convoluted. And that's, that's the road.

[00:17:27] Jonathan Puddle: And so I often, yeah, I guess the, like the last three or four years, that's been a similar sense for me. Mariko, what you summarized there is like, kind of like, I'm not gonna waste any energy convincing anybody of anything.

[00:17:40] Jonathan Puddle: I'm done. I, I had a decade there and that's fine. I'm, I'm not there anymore. And now it's just like, Hey, I've, I make this particular kind of bread and hey, if you've tapped in that this is the bread you're after, hey, we've got bread. And uh, and if it's not for you, it's not for

[00:17:58] Jonathan Puddle: you. But it's really good, bread, and uh, and suddenly there's all always people who've being like, oh my god, gimme the bread. From a mile high view. I just want to, I just want you both, or either of you to quickly tell us the genesis. I, and I think we've already heard a bunch of seeds of it there in terms of raising your children. Give us a little bit more about how the book came to be in the first place, what the book is for Anyone who's listening to this who has no idea and shame on you, if that's you, because I have been sharing about this book on my socials.

[00:18:32] Mariko Clark: Uh, I'll start. I feel like we've developed a little bit of a cadence here. So, uh, the way that came about was four years ago, my daughter, um, who was just starting to read at the time out of nowhere, asked me, "Mom, does God love boys more than girls?" And I was just taken aback. I'm like, I thought I raised you to be such a good little feminist. Like, where is this question coming from?

[00:18:57] Mariko Clark: Uh, and she, she tells me that the story bible that we have at home that she, you know, had started reading on her own, um, had only two, what she called girl stories, and that the rest were boy stories. And so she just, you know, as kids do, drew that sort of black and white opinion from that. Um, which like is like, she's not too far off, like with asking that question. Um, and so I ordered every story bible while I could get my hands on, that was on the market at the time. And I went through page by page with my little sticky notes and I kept a tally of how many stories had a, a female main character, how many had a female mentioned.

[00:19:36] Mariko Clark: And like when I say mentioned, it's like wife, sister, like I wasn't even going for named characters. That would've been a much smaller number. And how many pages had it?

[00:19:45] Jonathan Puddle: Er talking to another female

[00:19:47] Mariko Clark: Yeah, the, the beck, the Bechdel test. Yeah.. That doesn't exist in the Bible. Um, or no, the five, the five daughters of Zelophehad, they win that for us.

[00:19:56] Mariko Clark: Um. And so I went through and I kept my little tally, and then I kept track of how many pages had a female even depicted like anywhere on the page. Even like, you know, far back in the crowd. I was just looking for anything and just it was bleak. Um, if I have my stats correct, and you would think I'd know 'em at this point, it was 7% of the stories had a female main character.

[00:20:20] Mariko Clark: 19% had a female mentioned, and 23% of the pages had a female depicted anywhere on the page. Even in like a huge crowd of people, lots of beards, um, nothing against beards, Jonathan, but you know what I mean. And so I kept, I, you know, I started thinking like, after I looked around, it's like no one was doing like, like you're talking about the bread. Like no one was making the exact kind of bread I wanted. 'cause then once I started thinking about it, I'm like, well, while I'm at it, well, while I'm looking, I would love if there was a story bible that had some contemplative practices for my kids, I would love a story bible that was like, not so much on the morality and more on, um, identity and who, who God says we are.

[00:21:03] Mariko Clark: Um, and once I started pulling at that thread of like, well, if, if I really, if I get to choose, here's what I would have, um. One thing after another, I finally was like, well, maybe I'll just do it myself. And so that's how, um, that's how we got to the Kickstarter part of our story. But in order to make the book, I, I needed an illustrator and I had been searching around, um, I was reading Scott Erickson's Honest Advent at the time. It was, it was Christmas time and I was like, maybe I'll get a Christmas miracle. So I emailed Scott. I don't, I didn't know Scott at the time. Email cold-emailed him out of nowhere, just sort of gave him this idea I had, I had, um, the Five Fearless Sisters chapter already done as sort of a proof of concept. Um, and he, to my surprise. Now that I know him, I'm like, oh yeah, he emailed back right away. Was like, I love this idea, but I'm actually already working on a book. Um, and, you know, children's books aren't really my thing anyways, but I, I really think you should meet my friend Rachel. I think that you guys would really hit it off. Um, so then, then he introduced Rachel and I over email and I, I'll let her pick up there.

[00:22:16] Rachel Eleanor: Yeah, the rest is history. Yeah. Scott is a generous internet friend. I reached out to him, I don't know, two years before, a year before when I was going through massive deconstruction, like everyone else, really appreciating his content and I'd seen stuff about his Say Yes show. I think he maybe had downloads available of it.

[00:22:34] Rachel Eleanor: And I emailed, I. Like, how do I get my hands on the show and just, I don't know, word vomited on him saying like, I'm an artist and like, I'm going through this with my church and kind of leading a house church and sort of undercover and just feelings. Um, and he was so generous with me and got back to me and gave me a link.

[00:22:56] Rachel Eleanor: And we emailed, we emailed back and forth some. We met in person a few times, and just kind of became friends so then when he sent Mari my way, I was like, okay, this is vetted. Like it's Scott, so that's, that's helpful. Um, because I have, I get a lot of asks from churches, having a background in being part of a church. Um, and I was kind of going through this process of filtering a lot of that. I'm in the South and if a church was asking for me to do already, like reduced price work, I was like, Hey, like I have pretty strict standards about that now. Like. What are, what's your statement of marriage, faith like what, what's your deal like? Oh, okay. Sorry. I only work with the affirming churches like. Or I'm just not working with churches right now. There was a lot of that kind of filtering happening for me. And so I, I did that process with Mari real fast. I was like, hi. Just so you know, like, um, I'm, I was like, I'm not really currently calling myself a Christian and I'm, uh, an ex-vangelical is like a great word for it.

[00:24:01] Rachel Eleanor: I don't believe in biblical inerancy I'm LGBTQ affirming. If any of these are like red flags for you, then I'm probably not the right illustrator for you. Thinking that this was probably gonna filter mari out. Like, and then I got an email back from her, which I need to go look at it. But in my mind, like now being in texts and emails with Mari like all day, all the time, I just imagine all caps like, OH MY GOSH, I was literally about to grill you with all these questions. and that was like a big thumbs up from both of us.

[00:24:32] Rachel Eleanor: Like, oh, okay. We were about to both test the waters in the same way with each other. And yeah. And then we got on, um, got on a call. It was a great fit. Mari caught me at the right time. And we talk about this sort of like this feeling of what was moving, what was going on in the world. I felt like I'd done a few years of, um, processing. I feel like I'm the poster child for exvangelical toxic positivity and recovery. Enneagram seven, figuring out how to grieve, like all this stuff, DHD like, that's, that's my, my world. And I was kind of online practicing being vulnerable and, and drawing and illustrating around that. But I had to take a long break from scripture, especially after I left my church after a , a long sort of push trying to change some of our policies. And right as I was starting to feel the itch to be like, what if I like. Engage with these stories again, like no pressure, like, just like, what if I did some drawing around this? And then that email landed from Mari and she caught me at the right time and was doing precisely the sort of work that I wanted to do. I mean, at the beginning I was like, super. I was like, whoa. What if we do it all gender bent? What if Moses was a woman?

[00:25:45] Rachel Eleanor: Like, I wish. She's like, okay, okay. Like we, I got real pie in the sky and then we um, we circled back, um, and found what we really wanted to do together. But yeah, it was really beautiful. The rest is history.

[00:25:59] Jonathan Puddle: Thank you for sharing that. That's so cool. And Scott was on the show, uh, talking about Honest Advent when that came

[00:26:06] Mariko Clark: Are right.

[00:26:07] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:07] Jonathan Puddle: So I'm really curious about the stories that you're getting now, now that the book's been out in the wild and sold out its first and second and third print runs and, uh, and you're getting reviews, uh, some of which are weird and most of which I'm sure are lovely. Uh, what, how, how's it landing with people? How, how, how many other little girls are now hearing a better story and, and like boys, like let's just say how many humans are now hearing a better story?

[00:26:40] Mariko Clark: I think the thing that delights just really tickles both of us is that the vast majority of the messages we're getting are adults saying, I bought this for a kid in my life, and then I kept it because, and now it's mine. And it's like, we've joked that if we could make a word cloud of all of these messages that we've received, the, by far the largest word would be sobbing or crying or tears. There's this sort of collective weeping that everyone is, seems to be doing and, and it seems to be like a happy, sad. It seems to be, people are having this experience of. I've experienced it too, not through our book, but I guess through the process of writing it, if this really deep grief for the younger version of themself who didn't have this book or who was hurt or harmed by a book, very different from ours,

[00:27:44] Mariko Clark: um, grieving that, that they didn't have this resource that they need, but then also celebrating that it's in their life now and that this, this little person, whoever it is that they originally bought it for now has access to something that feels safe. Um, and I think it's like a lot of people feeling like their inner child sort of just like. Release, release some tension and release, um, some terror and some and some grief and to realize like, oh, this, this might not be like, we're not claiming to be the end all be all. We're not claiming to be like the very last Story Bible that will ever be written, but it's like, I think people are feeling like, oh, it's a safe place for me to kind of curl up and just be, before I decide what my next step is.

[00:28:33] Mariko Clark: 'cause I think a lot of people that we're hearing from are like, I have been stuck. Like, I've been in this place where I, I, I know I didn't want this thing that I had and I didn't want it for kids that I love, whether it's the kids in their life or the kids in their heart, we say, I know I didn't want this thing. But I wasn't quite sure where to go, and I still don't know where to go, but I recognize that there needs to be some sort of nourishment for me to continue on the journey. And I can't eat in a state of terror and I can't nourish myself in, in a, a place where there has been trauma. So to, to, to sit in stories that don't sort, don't have those triggers.

[00:29:18] Mariko Clark: And in fact some of them, to have the opposite of triggers, to have those glimmers in them that are, that are nourishing people and that are moving them towards an, an experience of love and belonging. It seems to bring us all to tears. And I think that, you know, Rachel and I have had so many conversations about, like, we just feel surprised, but also thrilled that we get to be a part of that nourishment. I don't think either of us saw that coming. I think we thought like we're gonna make a cute, beautiful, not just cute. We wanna make something that's really beautiful for families to use and for kids to enjoy. And I don't think that either of us really saw it coming, that it would be something that adults, almost exclusively adults, it seems are, are using consistently in their spiritual practice.

[00:30:19] Mariko Clark: That's been

[00:30:21] Jonathan Puddle: Wow.

[00:30:21] Mariko Clark: Really cool. I don't know. Rachel?

[00:30:24] Rachel Eleanor: That was a secret hope of mine. I mean, it's in my, I'm like, what did I put my dedication? Like I dedicated it to my little son, , Finn. But I ended as like, and most especially, but also for other kids and their grownups, and most especially for the in-betweeners, lost sheep and wandering ones, we all belong. And I think even when we were kind of having this partnership, I felt like I was representing the, the faction of people who felt. They had to leave or left behind or hurt or disappointed or like, they couldn't, these stories weren't for them anymore. And I was kinda like, whoa, no pressure. You never have to return to this. Like I talk about like the scriptures being like, this was my first language. It's like the language that I learned first. And so it's the most natural to me. But, um, you can learn to love and enjoy and hear stories in other languages and that's totally fine. uh, for some people they're like, I can never go back to that first language.

[00:31:20] Rachel Eleanor: Like, I'm just gonna be happier moving on from something else. Uh, but yeah, I think that that was really humbling to me and was a hope of mine was that like the process would be as healing for other people as it was for me just working on the book. Um, I, that was a delightful thing. I think part of what surprised me, Mari, is how many people I wouldn't have pegged as being in our target market. Who quote unquote, like I was like a lot of my friends, I have like, I feel like on my Instagram, like the people who knew me from church and then the people I met after. And there's a lot of people in the after space who bought the book and are reading it to their kids. I'm like, why are you doing that?

[00:31:57] Rachel Eleanor: Like, you're not even Christians. They're like, this is, yeah, we love it. Like this is part of our culture. Like that's been really humbling. Um, and I think Mari and I were also braced for a lot more vitriol. I think we had, um, a lot of pushback in the beginning and that was a huge thing that we had to sort of battle. We had some like interior sort of battles with our editorial team. Things shifting, like stuff we had to like go back and say like, no, these are like theological choices that we believe in. And I think we were prepared for more people to like call us heretical, she- witches like, and

[00:32:35] Rachel Eleanor: instead I

[00:32:36] Jonathan Puddle: And you know, they're both women, right?

[00:32:39] Rachel Eleanor: and they're both women, right?

[00:32:40] Rachel Eleanor: And Mar and I thinking. Yeah. And Mari, and I think you were like doing this like insane progressive thing and then it's like not quite so famous, but I was just writing down like, did we kind of make Inside Out?, like Inside Out is like a very progressive, beautiful take on like gentle parenting and emotional health, like all this stuff.

[00:32:59] Rachel Eleanor: And like conservative parents and like everyone loves inside out. Like everyone's on the same page. And that's kind of what's happened. Like I wasn't expecting some of our, my conservative friends and family to be like, love it and like for it to be meaningful for a lot of different people. And especially 'cause I think Mari and I were really, uh, a big thing we said the whole time was like, this doesn't need to be everybody's Bible.

[00:33:24] Rachel Eleanor: Like the people that we're worried about pissing off already have like 900 bibles. Like they're fine. They're being served. Like if they feel attacked by this, they have other things to work on, you know, like, it, it's not your bread. Like you said, like if you don't like our bread, it's fine. There's, there's lots of other bread in the bakery. Um, so that was a, a sweet thing too. I was like, what are my sweet non-Christian friends doing? Like, what I'm like having to sort of explain the project to, I'm like, well, within the context of Christianity, like there are some people who are more progressive, like this has been happening and they're like, and they're like, oh yeah, we're down. And I think I've talked to people about that too, like, but some of this theology is just like part of culture and it is really healing to hear a different take on the Genesis story, period. Like you're, we're in Western culture.

[00:34:07] Rachel Eleanor: And that's been, that's been really cool. So thanks Mari for doing all that research for us.

[00:34:14] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: It is incredibly beautiful.. I love the language of, it was almost like my first language. Um, being somebody who had a first language who didn't use that a lot and then have now come back more to it. That like that you said it and I was like, oh, that makes so much sense about even how I engage with scripture. 'cause similarly, there was a significant period of time where I'm like, I can't, scripture is triggering.

[00:34:34] Rachel Eleanor: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:35] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: Um, that it has been put before me. And so it was something I wasn't able to use in my own practices. But now as I, like, there was a similar journey of my journey of my own. I think I have a desire for something, again that reminded me of a beautiful time or what I envisioned to be a beautiful time.

[00:34:54] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: So like the idea of it being a first language and something that kinda lived in your subconscious and being in a western context. So many of us have these stories that play in our, into our judicial system to play into our educational system, our medical system. So to hear redemptive language on it is so profound.

[00:35:13] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: And Jonathan and I have talked about this a lot. Where on both, like on every side of the aisle, I think there are people who desire to love well. And if you were to really push some of their theological, theological convictions, it doesn't always line up with how they love.

[00:35:32] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: It's like, right. You see that with so many people and so it makes sense. Perfect sense to me. The people on both sides would be like, oh yeah, actually this is beautiful. Because when you actually have to sit down and think of what you wanna give your children, you wanna give them the most beautiful, loving imagery of God who, and I love how so much of your focus was on your, like how we hear God, we hear God's identity, or we hear what God says about our identity because isn't that what parents want to give their children?

[00:36:02] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: Just this beautiful image of who they're, so, yeah, no, that, that just sit to me to be really profound that people on both sides or all sides of the aisle are really like enjoying it. So then you both alluded to this, it's interesting to see like. This book has come into the world at the right moment in time, and it's like, it drop it like the project landed on your hearts in the right moment in time, but what's been the journey for you in writing it, in releasing it?

[00:36:30] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: What has that, has that shifted your philosophical, theological values? Like what, what does that look like for you?

[00:36:39] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: How has this labor process rearranged your organs?

[00:36:42] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: Yes. Yes.

[00:36:44] Rachel Eleanor: I love that.

[00:36:48] Mariko Clark: It hits close to home. Yeah. Uh, I think for me it's been, so, my background, I was raised in a fundamentalist denomination, and so I, a lot of the, The Book of Belonging for me is like, a lot of it is me writing what I needed to hear when I was younger. That like, you know, I was a spicy little, like, curious question- asking like relentlessly challenging what was handed to me, girl. In, in a fundamentalist denomination.

[00:37:22] Mariko Clark: Like there just wasn't really a place for me. Like I feel like the church rejected me before I could reject it. Like my, my deconstruction journey, is different from a lot of my peers in that way. That I didn't have that sort of like cozy church youth group situation that then later I was like, ah, shucks. Like I have to, I have to let go of that and grieve it. Like I just, like, there wasn't a place for me from the jump. And so I think to write these stories and to write what, like I, I really like what my inner child needed to hear when I was younger and that I have said to myself and said to my kids so many times in this like, sort of desperate attempt, almost like fake it till you make it kind of parenting of like, I'm gonna say this thing that I'm pretty sure is true and I really hope is true. It's like the most, it's the most hopeful and benevolent thing I can think to say. So I'm gonna go ahead and chalk that up as like something that God would say if my human brain can make it that way. And it's writing the book has been this process of, um, spirit meeting me there and being like, yeah, like the reason that that feels so good is because it is so good. And the reason that these names ring so true is because they are true. And the reason that that other stuff didn't sit well with you is because it's harmful. Um, the reason that exclusionary theology feels icky is because it's not the way of Jesus. Like I think that that for me has been. Such a, um, affirming process for like that, you know, that spicy little girl in me who was like, I, I, you know, I had things to say and no one really wanted to hear it, to be like, yes. But also, um, I think even as a parent, like, you know, this process of adulting for me as I'm constantly looking over my shoulder looking for the adultier adult and then being like, shit, that's me. Like, sorry to swear on, on the record, but I'm guessing it's a show I can do that. Yeah. To just be like, oh, I'm that adult. But then to be met there with like, yeah, you are and you're not just winging it, I think has been really lovely and really just. You know, so in line with who, I just was like hoping that God was, and just sort of assuming until I was proven otherwise that God was. So for me it was almost like Rachel has joked that, like this whole book has been this process of us building the plane as we fly it.

[00:39:59] Mariko Clark: And I feel like for me it was like the, not only the plane of this book, but the plane of like my sense of self in, in, in light of who God says I am. Like all these things. I'm like, God says this about you kids. I'm like, about me too though. Right.

[00:40:14] Jonathan Puddle: yeah.

[00:40:14] Mariko Clark: And so it's just been like, it's been affirming. I think that's the best word for it, is just like hoping that I belonged in this place, ironically, this place of carving out belonging for others and declaring it to be true.

[00:40:30] Mariko Clark: Hoping that I also belonged and then being met there with like o this overwhelming, um, me too from a community that I. Um, admire and cherish so dearly. Ha has been really lovely.

[00:40:45] Rachel Eleanor: Hmm.

[00:40:46] Jonathan Puddle: That's fantastic.

[00:40:47] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: Beautiful.

[00:40:49] Rachel Eleanor: I've loved watching for Mari. Like it was cool. Like Mari was a mom before I was a mom, so we became best friends and she also was able to like, mentor me and help me through so much mom stuff. But I think a beautiful thing that she's modeled and I've loved watching her grow in, is like, from the beginning of the project being like, like, please, like, would you like this? Like all these publishers, and we were having to go through these processes of like, you don't need to pitch to them. They're excited to talk to you. Like you don't need to squeeze and change yourself to, to make every, like, to see her grow in her confidence of like, I like, like at two, uh, I don't know, a few months ago, preaching, right?

[00:41:28] Rachel Eleanor: Like just speaking in front of a huge room of people with authority in front of her girls and like something that would've felt so maybe alien, but affirming to her as a little girl. Something I think Mari's done great modeling for me is, is like she said, the winging it even as a parent. Like I'm, I'm, modeling this for you, even though if it's not natural to me, like even if this is hard for me, it's what I want to be true for you. And so we're gonna do it. Like, and I feel like that was the, the writing she led with. And the practices that she pushed. Like we're we grownups have our own trauma and stuff and we're limping and we're trying to lead the way, saying here's how you can dance. You know, and we can teach them the steps and say like, I think this is how it goes.

[00:42:12] Rachel Eleanor: I, I, I, it feels right in my gut so that our kids can actually get there. And I've, I've loved that watching Mari go through that process and I think that's how she, um, she wrote the book and it was helpful for me as a parent too.

[00:42:26] Jonathan Puddle: Mm.

[00:42:27] Jonathan Puddle: I'm hearing, I'm hearing so much in this conversation around trusting our body as a filter of goodness and, and sometimes the only authority we have to trust that our body as a filter of goodness is hope.

[00:42:53] Mariko Clark: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:53] Jonathan Puddle: There's no other authority than hope. And, uh, Try, like again, we were on this last episode, this, this thing of like, we treat it like some kind of radical thing. To trust your gut.

[00:43:08] Mariko Clark: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:09] Jonathan Puddle: To trust your body. Again, obviously with different stories coming from different traditions. I came from this very, very charismatic tradition that was on the one hand, like, listen to the Holy Spirit. God is real, God is experienceable. You can listen to God, you can use your body in exuberant praise and worship, but your emotions are probably evil. And there was like these weird dichotomous things that I remember at like 16. Oh, at 15. I was like, okay, that's what, that's what the man said. But by 17 I was like, that's bullshit. And, and by 18 I was out the door. And so, you know, we, you know, my wife and I rolled through deconstruction a decade before the zeitgeist and our, our kids are a little older, and I mean, our eldest is 16. And I remember sitting with, okay, first of all, I remember the one time that I ever spanked him. This is now 12 years ago. And he turned around and slapped me in the face and,

[00:44:07] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: Sounds accurate.

[00:44:09] Jonathan Puddle: and, uh, and I couldn't justify why, why my hitting was okay and his hitting was not okay. And so I went upstairs and I said, honey, this, okay, this has to be added to the list of things that doesn't work that we were told works.

[00:44:24] Jonathan Puddle: The list of the pile is, is big, but you know, we had nothing. We, at that point, we didn't have Dan Siegel, we didn't have The Wholebrain Child. have interpersonal neurobiology. I mean, it was just coming out, but we had nothing more than our body going. This is icky. A and a sense of hope that, that God, that love, that that goodness must be better than we can imagine it to be.

[00:44:58] Rachel Eleanor: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:00] Jonathan Puddle: I mean, which, which is literally a scriptural phrase. if, if if you can figure out this, how much more does the father, uh, and so I'm I'm just so intrigued at that, hearing it in your two journeys, hearing that in, in the way people are reacting to the book, knowing that Try and I have been sitting here for the last month or so, kind of in this space of, huh, what if we all spend the next decade trusting our bodies in a way that like the church hasn't, and the world hasn't. Uh, and I think the, the other thing that is just resonating in my spirit and mind and whatever. Is, okay. There's two things, and they're gonna sound unrelated, but they're related. One, uh, Rob Bell a year or two ago, someone had asked him in an interview, do you still call yourself a Christian? And he kind of pauses for a minute and then he is like, you know, for some time I didn't because that word had been so dragged through the mud and so made to be this thing by these other people. And then I decided those other people don't get to dec don't get to decide what it is. So, fuck yeah. I'm a Christian. And and that rang true for me. I was like, there it is. Okay. I, I probably decided that, which is usually my relationship to Rob Bell. He puts into words things I have recently come to land at, and I'm like, yeah, that's right. They don't get to decide, uh, what this means.

[00:46:35] Jonathan Puddle: And, and so I think the, the metaphysical thing that I just can't escape around this. And, and you can get there with a question: If there was originally, before time, before creation, if there's just God just, which is to say the perichoretic love poured between father, son, and spirit, if there's just a dance of selfless, othering energy and this selfless, othering energy seeks to create a physical cosmos, where do they do it? Inside themselves?

[00:47:17] Mariko Clark: Hmm.

[00:47:17] Jonathan Puddle: or outside themselves? It seems to me that inside themselves is the only conceivable option.

[00:47:25] Jonathan Puddle: So we've all been drilled into inviting Jesus into our heart. Uh, and I. My point of reference has been shifting to simply recognizing that all of created anything is inside Jesus' heart. And uh, and if that's the case, well then of course we should be trusting our bodies.

[00:47:48] Jonathan Puddle: We should be trusting the very resonance of the cosmos self because God holds it all. And, so of course we're going to stumble into goodness, of course, we're going to write a book that we only have kind of a glimpse of, and like you said, glimmers of, and, and, and while we are walking out our pain and our confusion, like even that is pushing back against patriarchy, right? And I feel this moment by moment where I'm like, oh, I don't have this figured out yet. I don't have this completely wrestled to the ground and I don't have a, an authoritative credential to put this out into the world. And I'm like, oh, right, okay. So that's part, that whole thinking is part of the problem.

[00:48:35] Mariko Clark: Yes.

[00:48:36] Jonathan Puddle: Yes, let's do research. Yes, let's not have people spouting about stuff they truly don't know. But you followed the only authority that needed to be followed

[00:48:49] Mariko Clark: Mm. Yeah.

[00:48:51] Jonathan Puddle: and produced something that resonated in the way the spirit's resonating in the cosmos at this time with so many people. And, and even what you said about like, uh, Rachel, about like your non-believing friends, like, like, which is a horrible term anyway,

[00:49:09] Rachel Eleanor: Yeah.

[00:49:09] Jonathan Puddle: but like these people, these other people, "why are they reading this book?" We are having those kinds of conversations all the time with people now and you know, folks who have no seeming interest or upbringing in the church are like, yeah, absolutely. Tell me about your source of hope and dignity.

[00:49:26] Jonathan Puddle: Yeah.

[00:49:26] Jonathan Puddle: Like, and, and how are you raising your children to be kind and, and other- facing humans? Is, is there bible stories that could help in that? And again, 10 years ago I would've been like, oh, definitely don't pick up a bible. But today it's like, yeah, there are some really interesting and redemptive stories about love's work among humans, and that's synonymous with God's work among humans, and so on and so forth. Uh, I know that I probably went really woo woo on

[00:49:56] Mariko Clark: No, we, I was

[00:49:58] Jonathan Puddle: All of that ties together in where I'm at this moment.

[00:50:03] Mariko Clark: I love that. I feel like Rachel and I have talked so often about how so much of the correcting, it's not correcting, but so much of the, like editing that we're doing with The Book of Belonging or like sort of re-imagining we would not have to do if it was not a part of Western Christianity to deny your physicality and how if, if all of us in youth group were not taught that your heart is deceitful above all else and that like even that we use the term intuition.

[00:50:41] Mariko Clark: I feel like is probably considered heretical in so many circles, which is so silly when you think about the idea of, of an, uh, of Christ incarnate, right? Like, if that's significant for God to take on flesh, then, then, then why are we treating this flesh like this like sort of like meat sack that we just like, you know, wobble around in and just do our best until we get to escape it.

[00:51:09] Mariko Clark: Um, and I think that's, that's some of the redemptive work that Rachel has done with the illustrations that I'm so grateful for is honoring physicality in, in so many different forms and also honoring, um. Our bodies as, as the, the beloved home of our emotions. I think she does a really incredible job showing human emotion on character's faces. And then on Jesus's face like that has been hu people like, oh, I saw Jesus doing something other than like, like a, a smize like a gentle smize. I think that it's just been really cool for me to watch Rachel process through that.

[00:51:55] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's been, it, the imagery's been amazing. It's interesting. I'm, I'm like a little, I'm having trouble getting words out in this conversation because there's so many beautiful things happening. I'm a little flooded where I'm like, oh my goodness. Like every big thing in my life is converging in this moment.

[00:52:15] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: And it's, it's very, it's beautiful. Um, and so I'm really just grateful for both of you and for what you're putting out. And just even as you're talking, little Try is freaking out. 'cause she's like, this is what she would've wanted, um, as a kid. And so, but when you talk even about, like, there's so much that's been said, um, but I'm so struck again, like even Jonathan you're talking about like, so we were, we See I can't get words out.

[00:52:43] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: I am like, oh, my brain is, I don't, I also dunno if it's like perimenopause. I would like to pretend not, but here we go. Um, this conversation started with Rachel you talking about feeling like you, like you didn't know if what you were putting out was good. And it didn't just flow. And then Mariko, you were talking about how, you know, you felt like you were just putting, like the plates in the cupboard and you were finishing the project, like you just got to join in at the end. And it was fantastic. And, and in some sense there was flow, but at the, at the same time, sorry, my family's having its own little meltdown, but at the same time, it, you were also looking behind you for the other adult in the room.

[00:53:23] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: And I think so much of that part of denying our physicality and that, that we've been given from the generations before us has been everything has to be black and white. And so the adult in the room has a specific answer that is yes or is no, this is right, this is wrong. And what you both have given us, even in just in your process is there's no one right process. One of you felt like it was trudging in mud and the other of you like just felt like you were just putting the plates in the shelf and you were done, right? Like, and I know, I'm sure every moment was different, but the process is not the same for everyone following our intuition and our creative source, which I believe is Holy spirit is, it's not the same for everyone, however we identify that, whatever that source of love is, um, it doesn't have to look the same. And even so when you depicted the images, like I even look at the, the opening creations, um, scenes and I'm like, there's so much left for interpretation. And I love that. I love even some of the genderless moments.

[00:54:19] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: I love that there is emotion given and then there's also stuff left for you to decipher on your own. 'cause even as I was, my kids are currently in a "I don't read" stage of their life and so I read out loud in their presence and annoy them. And so I was reading the introduction, because I'm like, this is such a beautiful theological framework and, and even how the gem works and you turn it and you ask questions.

[00:54:41] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: And so we, it kind of turned into a conversation of everything you take in in your life. You get to ask like, what am I taking from it? What, what's my perspective? What am I seeing? What am I seeing about what I'm reading? What am I seeing about myself? And it is going to be different for everybody based on our lived experience.

[00:54:59] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: So even when you said Mariko, this is not the be all and end all, of course not. Like there are going to be so many more lived experiences beyond us. But for right now, this is so much more inclusive to all of us that have not seen themselves depicted or represented for years. Or have not seen the people they love represented and have not seen the Jesus they love represented.

[00:55:22] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: Right? Like when you talk about like, you had this like, um, this vision of hope that you wanted, like that was your guide. Like that was your North star. That's your guiding, your guiding principle. I'm like, oh yeah, we all hoped to be loved. We were all like, oh yeah, okay, maybe I'm doing well enough. Maybe I'm gonna make it to this like evangelical heaven.

[00:55:40] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: Like hopefully I'm gonna be in the good place. And. To then align with Holy Spirit and be like, oh, actually you're, you're like, you are in a good place and I see you as good. Like, really like, it just, oh, it's beautiful. It's really, really beautiful. And I know you both talk about just a lot, like aligning with what's Holy Spirit's doing.

[00:56:04] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: But the thing is, it's also very courageous of you to step into this in this moment, you could have said no. And the fact that you did feels, yeah, I'm, it feels really profound and I'm really grateful, not even for my children, but for me. And ask Jonathan. I don't like a lot of Christian things right now.

[00:56:21] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: I don't like a lot of things right now.

[00:56:23] Jonathan Puddle: She doesn't.

[00:56:24] Jonathan Puddle: Mariko, what's happening?

[00:56:28] Mariko Clark: Um, I think it's just that sort of continual affirmation. Um, just that, you know, we, we did the thing and it was good. I just, it's still, it's hard for me to trust that sometimes I, I joke that I have a, a, scandalized fundamentalist who sits on my shoulder at any given moment. Um, and, and to hear that this, this, this thing that we did in this way we felt led, it, it, it's not hard for me to trust spirit, like I've had enough experience with God. That's not, it's, it's trusting myself that it is the challenge for me. And yeah, like we were talking about, the creative work was not hard for me. Writing the stories was not hard. That is so fun. And it like very flowy for me. The thing that gets in my way is, um, not believing that I'm the girl for the job and it, but it also like, it feels so fitting to be the girl for the job because specifically because I am not qualified in all of the ways that our capitalistic, patriarchic western, um, system of, uh, religion would, would qualify me. I, when I sit and think about the fact that two women in their, like, childbearing years, cr... created this thing and are, are participating in this, um, movement. That feels very fitting to me. If it was someone that wasn't me, I think I'd be like, hell yeah, of course. But because it is me, it it's just really emotional for you to acknowledge that and affirm that and for that affirmation to come from two people that I, um, admire and, and, and see resonating with so much of the wisdom that I, um, have experienced and enjoyed. It's just, um, it's, it's a happy, sad.

[00:58:46] Jonathan Puddle: Thank you for sharing it with us.

[00:58:47] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: Thank you, but yes, you both did the damn thing and it's like, it is, I, I know. I'm sorry I've talked about this so much, but it's like it is so the moment, because yes, it's for the kids, but you're reparenting all of us in the process, like. It had to be you.

[00:59:02] Mariko Clark: that's a key word though. Yeah. I feel like this, another thing that we just sort of joined in on was this sort of like so many of us are in therapy doing re-parenting work, whether it's through or Jonathan, you're into internal fa family systems. That's something we've talked about, like doing that work of like talking to our younger parts and connecting with, with our, our core self or like the self that interfaces with, um, the divine. So much of us are doing that work and, and, speaking so gently and kindly to the younger versions of ourself and speaking so gently and kindly to our own children. And even like so many of us I know are Dr. Becky fans of like, of doing this sort of like gentle or conscious parenting and, and saying to my kids when I was writing this book to be able to say to my kids like, you are not a bad kid. You are a good kid who is having a hard time. If that is true for my kids in their worst moments, isn't that true for me as well? And if that's true, then what do I do with this theology that says that I'm desperately wicked and totally depraved down to the very core of me?

[01:00:03] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: Yeah.

[01:00:03] Mariko Clark: And what do I do when my, my, my secular therapist and in my secular understanding of how, um, child development and, and neuroplasticity, how all of that works?

[01:00:16] Mariko Clark: If that isn't aligning with what I, with, with what scripture tells me and is true, then what do I do with that? I think so many of us are at that crossroads

[01:00:25] Jonathan Puddle: Yeah,

[01:00:26] Mariko Clark: and then, and then feeling the truth, feeling like it's too good to be true. But then it is that that's such a, a, a wonderful and heartbreaking experience that I think so many people have, have been relating to through our work. And that feels it, it feels really scary, but really honoring to to, to do that work.

[01:00:48] Jonathan Puddle: yeah. Scary and honoring, I feel, I think is the path in terms of our relationship to ourselves, right?

[01:00:58] Jonathan Puddle: I mean, even as you're. As you're reflecting on the scandalized, fundamentalist on your shoulder, you know, and it's like, what do we do with these? And uh, and I know the right answer in progressive social media spaces is to rage at them and call out and subtweet all of their errors.

[01:01:22] Mariko Clark: Yes. Mm-hmm.

[01:01:24] Jonathan Puddle: And, and I'm going, yeah. But internally I need to say, Hey friend,

[01:01:28] Mariko Clark: Yep.

[01:01:28] Mariko Clark: You're a part of me. Yeah.

[01:01:30] Jonathan Puddle: Thank you for keeping me safe from eternal conscious torment. that would be a terrible outcome. You don't want me to have that outcome. And so I can honour, encourage, I can see that as an act of love to, for me, that is, you are giving me a gift of not suffering forever.

[01:01:56] Mariko Clark: Yeah.

[01:01:57] Jonathan Puddle: Thank you. Now what if.

[01:02:02] Mariko Clark: Yes, exactly. And I don't think that I quite connected that at first. Actually, Rachel was one of the first people to explain that dynamic to me in that we got, um, I think you were present for this, Jonathan. We got trolled pretty hard really early on in the Kickstarter process before we had signed our book deal before any of that was happening. Um, a a well-known conservative mega church pastor sort of put out the, the alert on our book and sort of flooded our DMs and our comments with just really hateful, racist, sexist stuff. I was telling Rachel like, I just don't understand the vitriol. I don't understand the hatred. Like, if you don't like what I'm doing, just don't look at it. Like why? And Rachel was the first person to say like, it's fear. I don't think you understand that it's fear. Like you are sort of poking at the foundation of their, their understanding of their eternal destination, their eternal, like if, if that's really what's at the core, if like if you've been told that if, if you don't align with this, like certain, if you don't have this cognitive ascent to this one really specific like manifesto, then you're gonna burn. Forever. Anyone who's like poking at that, like of course, like we're all at our worst when we're afraid or ashamed. And so I think Rachel, you were the first person to be like, it's fear. Do you get that? And I was like, oh. Yes, and I mean she had experienced that, I think, I think the reason you got that Rachel was 'cause you had experienced it in person in a way that I had only understood on the internet. And so she had like literally lived that experience and showed up for me in res in retrospect, I'm like, that was really courageous of you, Rachel, I think to like take this traumatic experience and be like, let me coach you through this.

[01:03:58] Jonathan Puddle: Thank you for sharing all of this, for being so vulnerable with us and, uh, this has been rich. Can we ask if either or both of you would, uh, would pray for us, all of us, whoever us is.

[01:04:16] Rachel Eleanor: I, I, I would say, um, as I'm right now, if there was a prayer that I, it would probably be something a little more liturgical that was written down. Um, and I can like only remember the breastplate of St. Patrick right now.

[01:04:32] Mariko Clark: You said that like we would all know what that is. Does everyone else know what that is?

[01:04:36] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: No, no,

[01:04:38] Rachel Eleanor: I'm not gonna recite it perfectly, but, so I think when I was like, parting ways with evangelicalism, you know, like we talk about that being my first language, and then I went and became an expat. You know, I, I moved to Paris and I learned a new language and it felt so good. Um, I, like many evangelicals, found a lot of beauty in liturgy and suddenly not feeling the pressure to have this quiet time with this extemporaneous, ecstatic moments with God all the time.

[01:05:10] Rachel Eleanor: And just so, a prayer that I really love that's a really great to do when you're walking is the breastplate of St. Patrick. And there's a long list of things, um, but it's, um, wow. Okay. Christ above me. Christ below me, Christ before me, Christ behind me. Christ on my left hand, Christ on my right hand. Christ, when I lie down Christ, when I sit down Christ, when I'm waking Christ, when I'm sleeping, Christ all around me. Christ inside Amen.

[01:05:52] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: It's really,

[01:05:54] Rachel Eleanor: There's a longer list of places where Christ is that I can't remember, but it's pretty great. You can kind of just, you can say Christ in that tree over there, you know, like, um,

[01:06:04] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: I love it.

[01:06:05] Rachel Eleanor: And it, it's funny though that came to mind because I think, um, I like reconnected with this idea of Christ recently, but still is, um, a touchier one for me. I think this idea of love or God, um, big all caps, g God is a little easier for me at the moment. So I just think that's really sweet that Christ popped up.

[01:06:27] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: yeah, I love that. Thank you for sharing that.

[01:06:31] Mariko Clark: Um, and in, on my end, in place of a prayer, I actually had. If I'm allowed to do this, this quote that I have been, I put it, I taped it to my computer and I've, but just been reading it all day. Someone that I was emailing with randomly had it in the signature of their email, and I asked her where she got it from because I was so moved by it.

[01:06:54] Mariko Clark: And she said, I don't know. I heard it, I don't know, in a sermon one time or something, and I haven't been able to place it. So let me know if you find out where it's from. Um, so I, I'd like to read that, if that's okay.

[01:07:06] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:07] Mariko Clark: It says, "Biologically adults produce children, spiritually, children produce adults. Most of us have not grown up until we have helped children to do so. Thus do generations form a braided cord." And I just, I have not gotten over that yet. I've been staring at it all day just thinking about the work that Rachel and I get to do and this. Resounding me too, that we've been met with from people everywhere. And I think it just sort of gets at what a lot of us are experiencing, like our, this like parenting and re-parenting and caring for the younger versions of ourselves, but while also grieving and celebrating and just that idea of this braided cord that we all get to be a part of.

[01:08:07] Mariko Clark: And I think, I think it's the intentionality and the, the purpose of it that feels really lovely and redemptive for me, that like even in this, even in this like sort of painful, confusing, um, deconstructing, reconstructing, re-imagining situation that so many of us find ourselves in. This idea of like it being this, this cord that I imagine goes back through generations and goes on ahead of us, that we continue to participate in that, that this is the way it's supposed to be, is really comforting and beautiful for me.

[01:08:45] Mariko Clark: That none of it is outside of, like you said, that the heart, instead of inviting Jesus into our heart, that we're all participating in this cord braiding activity within the, within the heart of, uh, of true belonging and, um, of love is just so comforting to me that this is what we're supposed to do.

[01:09:07] Jonathan Puddle: beautiful.

[01:09:10] Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon: Thank you both so much. Wow.