#134-B: Exploring Dave Connis on laughter, silliness and work

Here’s the latest Puddcast B-Side, exploring themes of laughter and silliness and the value of everything, from our interview with Dave Connis. When Dave said, “Everything counts” something inside me exploded, or clarified, or whatever… it’s been big for me. Tryphena and I discuss finding joy in all things, redefining joy as a valuable part of serious work, and discerning what will and won’t bring joy. We riff on learning to see all the mundane aspects of our lives (especially as parents) not as surplus to the real work but as the real work, as much as our rest is also a valid part of the real work, because it’s all part of the whole life we’re living. We also touched on accepting our bodies, even as they age, and loads more as usual.

For maximum impact, make sure you listen to the source episode, #134: A theology of laughter and co-creation (with Dave Connis)

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Transcription

Jonathan Puddle  00:00

Hey friends, welcome back to The Puddcast B-Side with myself, Jonathan Puddle and...

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  00:06

Tryphena! Hey!

Jonathan Puddle  00:08

So I have been camped out on a few thoughts from this for like a couple of weeks. Before I get there, I need to give a shout out to Dave Connis. Because you know who decided he's a fan of Dave Connis? My 14 year old son. After completing, helping completing his work, I'm just mumbling over my words. Now, James, my son edits the transcripts. So I use an AI that listens to the audio and generates the transcript. And then usually, my son James, sometimes me if he's not available, we'll edit the transcript and just correct it for any errors. And so James gives us a little bit of feedback on the interviews, and sometimes they're like, Yeah, that was really interesting. Sometimes it was like, I don't think that was for me that, like, sometimes, he'll just be kind of like, yeah, like you guys having your adult existential crises on air. I have no resonance. But he'll hilariously announced that. And then this one, he was like, I like that guy. I like that guy. And that's quite high praise coming from James. Because he keeps his cards close, literally and figuratively. He plays a lot of poker as well. So anyway, Dave Connis gets the endorsement of my son, which is pretty great. Okay, so here's where I've been camped out, okay, two words: everything counts.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  01:35

Oh, okay, what's sitting with you about it?

Jonathan Puddle  01:39

So much. So we were just talking off air beforehand, about, I may have mentioned this here on air before, but since we became foster parents a year and a half ago, more than a year and a half ago, it's been really, really difficult to try and write, or be creative, or even prepare sermons, any of the kinds of things that generally define my career at this current stage, have felt really, really impossible, while also caring for a child with, you know, complex needs pretty severe trauma in her background. So the pervasive sense that I am sucking at everything, and my career has no future. It's just kind of been my constant companion for the last year and a half. And that's a heavy burden to carry. Obviously, many people will listen to that and be like, but that's ridiculous. Like you literally published another book, you have continued to put on, I'm like, Hey, I understand those, like real world metrics. But I have generally just felt like things are not working. And you know, you and I have talked about this in our over drinks. Many times.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  02:57

I was like, can you stop talking, because I feel very triggered, I feel like you're also speaking about my life. And so I was just, actually, I don't think I said this to you. I got home a little bit late from drop off. We're recording this in the morning right now. And part of it was I had run into a fellow parent who was sharing a very similar space that they were in. I feel like in so many ways, whether it's caring for your children, or our children's mental health is not the same place because of the last three years, or our mental health is not the same place. I think as much as your experience is unique because of the foster parents. Angle and role you've taken on, I think many people are feeling this place at this place where their careers in shambles, or their family life is in shambles, or their marriage or relationship with their own mental health. Like it just feels like we cannot be going like not ever, like all of our burners cannot be on right now. And in my case, it feels like none of my burners are on whether that's true or not.

Jonathan Puddle  03:54

Right, right. So we have this, our own perception of our value and abilities and output and time prioritization are not always good. Our perceptions of those things are often not accurate. But yeah, so many of us are in this weird, struggling space. Well, Dave said, Everything counts. Like laughter and joy and hanging out with your kids. And and then he then he was talking about as well, this thing that not everything has to be hard. And so in parallel to this episode going up two weeks ago, I'm editing a book for a friend that will be forthcoming. And it's, it's a booklet, a shorter book on the subject of creativity and trying to kind of like, democratize aspects of creativity that have often sort of been holed up in an ivory tower, right? Who gets to be creative and create art, wealthy, upper class white men, and they get to define what art is for everybody else, right? So she's kind of like laying, dropping bombs on a lot of those ideas. And the area that she starts to carve into halfway through is this thing of like, okay, so are you creative? If you're following a recipe? Is is it only creative if you modify like three or four ingredients, or like, what's the threshold where creativity begins. If you creative from following a pattern, if you're sewing something, she's like you, she used to always say I can't sell or I don't sell. But she's like, that's actually not true. Like I do. So and I know how to use a sewing machine, I own a sewing machine like these are these are, these are privileged or privileges around work. These are these are specific real talents, just because you feel that you're not especially good, when you don't feel super confident, doesn't mean that you're not doing something interesting and creative. And that is kind of, and then and then. And then talking as well about this idea as parents of like, I'm frustrated, because I can't do my real important creative work, because my child needs care. As if child care was not real important creative work, right? Literally requiring constant brainstorming. All day long. I will specifically go and ask Maija for advice, because when I can feel I have no more creative energy left. Right, I will say what are we having? What do you have any suggestions of what I should make for dinner is often what I will say to her, because I can feel I have no more creative energy left. Which means deciding what we have for dinner, and making what we have for dinner is a creative pursuit.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  06:50

Sounds good. Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  06:52

And so everything counts. And so we were talking off air, you said, How am I doing? And I said, I'm actually doing pretty well. I think for the first time in quite a while, I feel like I'm doing quite well. And I feel like I have hope. And a huge part of that is because for the first time since I've been trying to negotiate my career balance while being a foster father. For the first time, I feel content, with two and a half productive hours a day. I, I've been writing a brand new book, I've been doing podcasts, I've been working on all kinds of things. I've been serving clients in a number of different ways. And when I and I work, basically from nine to noon, and that, and I've known I've known Tryphena for like a year and a half that that is my max capacity. But I haven't felt good about it for a year. I felt guilty and frustrated and ashamed. And all kinds of things about that. Until now, January, this January 2023 is the first time that I felt good about that output. Part of that is just an internal thing in me. But a big part of it is looking at all the other things and calling them valid too.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  08:19

That's like a whole sermon right there, right of what we ascribe value to, call valid. It's so interesting, as I've started saying this to you earlier, were being in relationship with you and Maija has been very healing in terms of unpacking what I ascribe value to because I feel similar where I think parenting even before we have kids were kind of taught, okay, so you know, there's going to be sleepless nights, and then it's going to be okay, and then you're going to quote unquote, get your body back, whatever that means you're going to get like your mental health back, if there was postpartum, you're going to get like, all of these things back. And I think we have to shift this idea of what we're gonna get back. Because even what came what was so interesting to me, one of the many things that was interesting in the interview with Dave, was once kids are in the picture, you're not the center of the picture anymore, you're not in the frame, you are the frame. And I'm like, I just I wish I went into that with a better understanding of it will for ever change. And one day my career will not look the same. One day, my mental health and my body and my marriage and whatever it looks like my finances, nothing will ever actually go back to being what it was. But if I'm also honest, I don't know if I want it to go back to what it was. I wouldn't sacrifice having my children in the picture. I mean, okay, you're talking to me on a good day, like those days, I'd be like, Absolutely, I would go back

Jonathan Puddle  09:40

Great $10,000 right now.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  09:42

Right now. Here we go. Um, but it is very interesting because I haven't given value to the role of raising my children or just being in relationships a part of my journey for 2023 I'm not someone who always comes up with a word with the beginning of the year. But this year, I was sitting down with my spiritual director, and the word was embodied, like when can I actually be present in my body during the day, so much of me, surviving parenthood and life is me disassociating to survive, where we have beautiful children, one is more high needs than the other. And there are days that I feel like for me to survive that relationship and to love and to enter in, I have to detach to a way, in a way I'm like, I have to be Teflon, all the words, you're saying to me sound really horrible. I need to not allow it to actually enter my heart. So then I detach. And so it's become this unhealthy habit of I disassociate to survive parenting. And so my spiritual director, and I were like, Okay, so this year, the goal is solely to be present, whatever that looks like. And so it was fun, funny, because then for my birthday, Maija, your wife bought me a journal of women's bodies on the front, and I loved it, cuz I'm like, This is my embodiment journal. So every day, I'm like, here are my things. When did I feel present in my body? Even if that was overwhelmed? Did I allow my body to feel it? And did I have a meaningful moment? So was it meaningful with myself? Or I gave myself grace? Or was there a meaningful conversation that I engaged with? And that's it. That's the value set for 2023 right now, like, and I'm like, if I can accomplish those two things, I've had a successful day, I still feel the need to write down all the other real world quote unquote, things I've done, because I'm still working on a reframe. But it's really hard to just be okay. With doing less.

Jonathan Puddle  11:43

Yeah. Yeah. So if if everything counts, then the rest that you need to do the thing is a part of the thing. Right. We, I feel like I've read this so many times, you know, farms, you know, land for raising grain needs to lie fallow soil needs to be replenished. But I think I've still seen those as external to the thing. The thing is working hard. And, and that's the thing, and there are other things that support the thing, but they're not the thing. And I think that's the shift that's happened probably in my heart and soul that my brain has somehow become aware of realistically, in the last 100 hours, or the last, like, five, six days, like not long, but I've just been realizing, I feel okay about this. And I, and it's been a struggle for a long time, and what are the factors that have made me feel okay, about this, and it kind of comes to this, everything counts, that if, and it kind of goes, I guess it goes both ways, right. Because if I'm centering on being a father, then obviously, the attentive caregiving that I give directly to my children is a big part of that. But work and providing financially for my family is also a part of that thing. If I'm centering my value, and my value, but if I'm centering this topically, on the work that I do, essentially as like a guide, and helper person, then then my work writing and this, these conversations we have and other things on the Puddcast are all direct. But the rest and the capacity that I need to have these, the creation of that capacity is also a part of that thing. It's not just some external thing, it's an intrinsic part of the thing. The rest that I need, the relaxation, the fun that I need to be having. I think I've been trying to get my head around that for a couple of years. And it feels like something's dropped. And, and man, that is a feeling of peace. That is a feeling of hope. That is a feeling of permission to breathe, and just be and take up space.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  14:40

I love that, that itself is so powerful. And so beautiful. Because so often we don't give ourselves that permission to rest and to be and to take up space. And I feel like this is so cliche, but we talk about all the time, right? We're not, we're human beings, we're meant to just be able to be not to do all the time. But it's such a reframe I remember. It's a little thing, but I think I just grew up with this idea of everything I do needs to be productive, right? So even if I would just sit and like watch something on TV, or binge watch YouTube clips, or whatever it is, there would be so much guilt and shame for wasted time. I had a conversation with a cousin, with one of my cousin's a few years ago, and she was like, Try, do you think that maybe part of what draws you to whatever you're watching? Is the art in it and the creativity in it actually feeds your soul and feeds your creativity? Like there's a storyline? That is like, Oh, my goodness, absolutely. It's my heart and my soul responding to something. But it's a reframe. It's a reframe, of how important that rest. And that being, is, because I think I see this in my life, I look at people who are older than me that I gravitate towards. It's the ones who have lived a full life of not just work, but have experiences and relationships, because when they talk, they speak and have the richness of that.

Jonathan Puddle  16:14

Yes

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  16:15

 Right. Even like the pastor is or whoever the speakers that you listen to, but I listened to. It's the ones who actually live a life that I gravitate towards. And like all you have stories and anecdotes that are real and relevant.

Jonathan Puddle  16:32

Realizing, I'm realizing, so sorry, do you want to I was realizing something massive about myself as you say this.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  16:38

Okay, go, go, go, go. Let's hear this.

Jonathan Puddle  16:41

When I'm in full time caregiving mode, especially to our foster daughter, who has a lot of high needs. It gets I get to this point of drain of being super drained. But similar to you, I have this guilt burden, right, like I must be carrying, I must be here. You know, what I can choose to do internally that trumps the need, I can do something productive. And so when I need to escape from a child, the only moral out that I have historically been able to find for myself is cleaning, tidying, cooking, laundry. And so clearly, there's some kind of internal value system like on the importance of being productive and not wasting time. Right. And I'm not saying that being with a child was wasting time, I'm saying that when I'm overwhelmed, and I need some kind of moral permission to have a distance or boundary with my child, because I've been a poorly boundary person. I can justify I have to go and clean the dishes right now. And so what Yeah, so that's the part that I just realized.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  17:55

It's wild, I like, first of all, that's huge to acknowledge and to realize, because I think it just speaks to what we've given value to or what's what is important enough, right? And I've done similar things where I'm like, Okay, I guess I need to step away, because I really need to get this quote on quote, work done. I can't just say to them, I need to step away because I need a body break, and I just need to go lie down. Right?

Jonathan Puddle  18:19

It doesn't feel like that answer is justifiable. But that need is justifiable.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  18:24

Yeah. But what is that?

Jonathan Puddle  18:27

Yeah, right. So like, two, three months ago, maybe even more now. I started playing video games. Again, I used to be a big gamer and wild away years of my teenage hood, playing video games, and then became a parent,

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  18:40

you didn't wild away anything

Jonathan Puddle  18:42

Was, right. See, this is what I'm still trying to reframe it. And I have a relevant story. I started gaming again a few months ago, because I specifically realized, I'm in a rut, where the the only thing I know how to fill up a day with is hard, productive work. And part of that comes from the guilt of the pervasive sense that I'm not doing enough. And so I thought, You know what, Jonathan, I'm going to start playing a game, we're going to do something specifically unproductive. That is why we need to do it because it is the polar opposite to the trap that I always fall into. Because it is a form of dissociation for me, because what will happen is I get to the end of the day, and I start to get a little manic, there's a dish, a single dish that's been left, I need to wash it now. Because I was clean, keeping the kitchen clean, and I've now somehow glommed on to a clean kitchen, as my as the external manifestation of my internal chaos. So I'm like, Okay, I need to stop this. I need to go and game I need to go and reading novels has also been something that I can do. But I then get into the trap of like, well, I'm going to read the write novels to be productive. You know, we talked about this with Holly Oxhandler. Right, like, I'm gonna go to Sauna and relax so that I can be busy and productive and hardworking again, trying to cut off the so that okay, well, here's what happened.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  20:13

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  20:16

Without getting too deep into the weeds, a glitch occurred because of a recent update to the game I'm playing. And I and I lost like two weeks worth of gameplay, probably like 20 hours of like a lot of quests and a lot of exploration and a lot of things done in this game. And I was really, really mad. And then I felt really foolish for feeling mad. And then I had to go upstairs. And Maija was like, what's up? You're, you're off. And, and I was like is nothing. It's just nothing. And she's like, Well, you look super disappointed right now. So like, it's clearly not nothing. But in my head. I'm also battling this narrative that Maija doesn't really care about video games. And she's, and she might belittle me. And I'm trying to figure out how honest am I going to be about this and that I that I do feel super disappointed. I was like, it's just something in a video game and blah, blah, blah, is has nothing. And I sat around a moped around the house for like an hour. And then I went on a walk. And as I went on this walk, big, big parts of me, were like, Hey, so we're feeling super Dishonored right now, from the way that you just completely tried to bypass that you're actually very upset. And I went on and and it took me a long time on this walk trying to wrestle around like, this is a meaningless video game that contributes nothing, and could so readily be classified as a waste of time. And I feel, I feel frustrated and sad. And I feel and I feel hypocritical, for feeling frustrated and sad. And I feel like all these things. And I was going around and around and around and around. So finally, it dawned on me, I had this I had this memory of one of my children's precious LEGO creations that they had spent hours creating, getting broken. And how crushed they felt, and how real my empathy was for them. And suddenly, I was able to be really honest, that something that had brought me joy and fun that I was building towards. I lost and it doesn't matter that it was a meaningless video game. It has value solely because it brought me joy. Now, translating that into words that I can communicate to my wife who doesn't care about video games, that's another whole hurdle.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  23:17

she cares about you enough.

Jonathan Puddle  23:19

She does care about me

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  23:20

And see disappointment and want to honor that disappointment. That's right.

Jonathan Puddle  23:25

And, and I care about me. And, and that still was was because it was video games, it was still quite a big reframe. But anyway, that was really interesting. To me. That was really interesting. And like the last two weeks unpacking that. And, and in within this context of everything counts. Everything gets to be a part of this. Now that's not to say that things can't be come a trap and end up becoming toxic. And you know, oh, I'm gonna go do that thing because it always feel great. You can be out of your body and go and do the things that once were life giving and it not be life giving. Those are all real things. So be intentional. Be present.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  24:16

That's the hard part. The prep the beat eyes really struggle with being present. But I do think my caveat is that sometimes doing the things I don't want to do is like giving to me, Mark will laugh at me all the time. And he's like, I'll be stomping out of the house going on a stupid walk for my stupid mental health. And do I come back feeling better? Absolutely.

Jonathan Puddle  24:37

Okay, but yes, the flip side of that I feel like I'm sorry for cutting you off. Is that we but we took that I think way too far. And we've internalized this message that only things that we hate and are really hard are a value.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  24:56

Oh, yes.

Jonathan Puddle  24:58

Right. Okay. No pain. No gain means if you like it, it's probably worthless. And you should stop doing it.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  25:05

Yeah. Okay, so this is so good. This is a whole, like, all of this is so good. But this has been a big learning for me. Have you ever done StrengthsFinder? No,

Jonathan Puddle  25:14

I've been asked numerous times have I done Strengths Finder, but no, I have not.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  25:18

No, it's like, it's in one of the many assessments like tase or brig Myers Briggs, or all the things right, but this one specifically breaks down your five top strengths. And there's I think there's 33 in total, and they don't even remember they all range from but the whole premise of it is determined what your five top strengths are, and work on those. Because of the time we're little, it's like, okay, you're doing really good in math, but you're not doing good in English, we got to work on English, we got to get an English tutor, we got to, you know, bring that mark up. Versus Hey, you actually have an area you're strong in. Let's lean into that. And I think that translates as we get older, you have an area that you're delighting in. So okay, that can be your hobby, that can be your rest. But that's not something that you can actually give value in time to,

Jonathan Puddle  26:06

Because you're a grown ass adult and you need to be serious.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  26:09

Exactly. But it's gotten to like Mark and I had this competition recently, where if he has a week where he doesn't come out of it, feeling exhausted and burnt out, or he does a sermon where he's not absolutely where it doesn't. It's not incredibly difficult. He feels that he's not done a good job because he's not been God.

Jonathan Puddle  26:28

Right? You mentioned that in the interview. Okay, and I've been and I've been thinking about that big time. Because I realized this kay, we're talking this the last three weeks, I've been really productive. And even to say that is means the reframe is happening, because I've been really productive for into our into our little windows each day. And I don't feel bad about that I genuinely have come to some huge breakthrough, because I feel like this has been a great three weeks in all the different spheres of work that I do. But each day, as I'm stopping, I've been like, Oh, I'm not exhausted. And the instinct is keep pushing. And so it's like a trained myself. With the I only know I've found, I only know there's a limit because I'm chronically exhausted. So it's like for those of us that that paced ourself, I guess, I guess that's a phrase you could use, right? Like the pace that we had acclimatized to was was overwhelm, and, and some kind of brutalization of our humanity. And so trying to now pick those markers, right, at this point requires, requires perhaps just setting some timers. Okay, after two hours of done, but the other thing you said about delight is, I guess last year, I started asking myself, Jonathan, are you happy? Like in the work? Are you enjoying the work right now? Because you are literally in charge of your your life and your career, you have no boss, but yourself. I kept feeling like I have an unkind boss who's driving me harder and harder to work longer and longer hours. And then I remember, I'm self employed. And I said to somebody, my boss is not very kind to me. And they looked at me really quizzically until they realized what I was saying, but I was still realizing what I was saying. And so it's like, Okay, does this bring joy? Does this bring happiness? Do I hate this? Because if I hate it, I should stop it.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  28:35

Yeah

Jonathan Puddle  28:35

And this is also coming out of this creativity book that I've been editing. The author explained how she heard a pastor literally say that, that's the spiritual disciplines that you hate. You probably shouldn't be doing that. But like, I think, especially in the church, we've done exactly what you said, pick the weakest ones, bring up the weak ones. That's the that's important. We've got to do that. If it sucks, that's probably a sign that like the devil is like, blah, blah, blah.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  29:03

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  29:04

And I went for Indian food. The other day, I probably told you that story, and I really wanted to get the butter chicken. But I decided to get like the Rogan, Josh, because I never get Rogan and Josh. And I was like, oh, but what if it's what if I love it? I didn't love it. And I ended up just disappointed. I said to myself, when I go for dinner tonight, because I was also going two restaurants in one day, outrageous. I need to get something that I really like. Rather than try the new experimental brave thing every single time, Jonathan, you're allowed to not feel like you're missing out on something. Just do the thing you enjoy.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  29:41

Which, okay, so going back a few minutes, even though you're talking about your creative abilities, right or your creative bandwidth. And when you feel your creative bandwidth crashing, then your decision making ability gets smaller meaning than your decisions are creative, right? So even you deciding what you're going to eat is a creative decision. So I'm gonna choose, when I go out with Mark, He will 90% of the time, get a burger or fish and chips that says, But to him, that is an incredibly creative decision. Because there's he knows he's going to delight in it.

Jonathan Puddle  30:14

That's wild to me. I know I cannot handle it, I feel this profound burden, to not do the things I enjoy Tryphena

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  30:24

Oh, I hear you. Maija called me on this in January. And she's like, you just don't value fun and pleasure. Like I was like, Yeah, I guess you're right. I don't I don't think about what the fun option is. And how I'm going to do this hence, the other day, we ordered like goat biryani at like 8:30 at night because it's like, Hey, we're going to do the fun thing at a ridiculous hour. And do it but I just I don't. And I think too, okay, so there's so many things that were part of this whole system and culture, where the hustle harder culture, no pain, no gain, right? We always have to be working. But then also, we're part of a social media culture where it's like, well, we're constantly trying new things and exposing ourselves to new things. And it's beautiful. But sometimes there can be delight in our mundane. Like, I'm going to go to my comfort food, and I'm going to be okay with that. And feeling safe. Can also be a creative outlet.

Jonathan Puddle  31:27

Yeah, I think it's no coincidence that all of this is happening for me, in the time where I basically took a break from social media. Right. Like we, it's, it's been, it's been a really helpful and healthy thing, probably for most of us, especially, you know, as white people all with relative privilege and power to have our stories expanded, and have the center of gravity shifted, and, and hear from voices that we weren't listening to before. So you know, that's obviously an important value. At the same time, the constant exposure to new to someone else to other within a system that's designed to get you to keep scrolling, and keep clicking, and stay engaged at all costs, and feel shitty about yourself as a means of someone else extracting money from your eyeballs on ad revenue. That's all part of it. So it's been really interesting watching the way I write, and the way that I am being, having coming been off social for like, over a month. And feeling generally, like, nothing was lost from my life. and wonderful things are added to my life by not being on social media. So I'm like, Why do I ever go back. But there's definitely like, also the sense of, I probably need to take another five or 10 years to keep internalizing and learning deeply these messages about colonialism. And justice, it's one thing to have someone on on a podcast and talk about how much it's affecting me. It's another thing to really let that seep into my, my groundwater as it were, and deeply impact my soul. And if I want to do that, well, I probably can't always be doing that publicly.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  33:35

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  33:36

And I can't be constantly ingesting new issues and new advocacies if I want to really robustly be transformed by any one of these things. You know, again, I think I think one of the traps for me personally, has been that I have so many interests, and so broad in my abilities and talents, that it feels very indulgent, to double click on any one thing. And it feels like maybe I'm robbing other people of the possibility of me helping them if I'm not keeping all options open at all times. And so to allow myself to go deep in something, including deep enjoy deep and pleasure, deep and rest. It feels very foreign. But it's starting to feel very necessary. And to bring this back to Dave Connis, like this, the sense that everything counts, that we get to raise our children observing a full life, not just a manic life. And they're interested in go and I think oh man, this is what's crazy. Again, like, like with the video game thing, it took me thinking about my child. For me to understand that I had lost something of value. And so we are always so much thinking about raising our children raising our children, but man, like, the number of times that they are teaching us. And like Ruuben said to me the other day, he's like, Daddy, we've been, we've been learning about unlearning. And, okay, okay, I remember the thing I wanted to share.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  35:36

All right, Jonathan, go for it. I feel like

Jonathan Puddle  35:38

I'm all over the place today, and you're being very gracious to me.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  35:41

I think you're gonna this is the whole thing. It doesn't need to be productive and linear. Speaking colonization, that's like some colonization Industrial Revolution stuff. We're not We're not breaking that down. Okay. Sorry. Oh, what did you remember,

Jonathan Puddle  35:55

All this is so interconnected in my head. And I imagine for most listeners, it's not. And it feels like a whole bunch of random anecdotes, so too bad. But, but I see all of these threads connected, we had a really big event happen with our foster daughter, like, not like a big bad thing, but like just some status changes, and some things that are happening in her care, that are really good. And she expressed to her worker, something that she wants to see happen. And her worker said, that's a really big decision you've made? Would you be able to share with me some of the reasons why. And she said, basically, it's to do a bit with with our family and long term care. And she said, because they make me feel safe. And we play silly games. And that, like, was what this child needs to feel safe, and to play silly games. And I just thought, does that ever change? Are you and are our needs Tryphena that much different? Like, from our marriage, from our marriages from our work? Like, don't we want to feel safe in the contribution that we make work wise, you can take that in so many different ways, right? financially stable, all those kinds of things, whatever safe and the team that we work on, do dignity, respect, and to enjoy it, to feel silly to have fun to let loose.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  37:47

I have a friend whose whole thought process in life is if it's not fun, I'm not doing it. And I used to get so mad at that same man because I'm like, so much of life is not fun. But I'm like, No, that's actually choices I have made that have enabled me to be that place. One. I love that she feels safe. And she's an part of that has come through silly games. And I think that's such a parenting framework and just a life reframe work like framework, right? Because I think even with my own kids, I feel productive when I've had an intentional conversation with them, not shot the shit and played like Mario Kart. Right, right.

Jonathan Puddle  38:26

Turns out though, they feel like feel like.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  38:32

That's what makes them feel loved and productive. Even. We did a games night a few weeks ago. One of the highlights of the last couple months for me. What did we do? Was it intentional? Like not.

Jonathan Puddle  38:44

we played silly games.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  38:46

Played silly games. And my heartfelt happy.

Jonathan Puddle  38:50

That was a good night.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  38:52

I just like oh, like, I don't put enough value on this. And what that does for my heart and my soul?

Jonathan Puddle  39:03

Yeah. Yeah, I think I think we need it. Maybe someone's already written this book. We just haven't found it yet. But I think it's like we specifically need to somehow reframe our language around fun. Because even as you're saying, like about your friends saying I don't do it if it's not fun. I have so many parts, like freaking out about how, like you got what you said, life isn't just fun. It's not it's not all romance. Like it's not all like blah, blah, blah. But but it's I guess it's like we need to actually it's not just saying well, yeah, sometimes you have to do things that aren't fun. It's actually recapitulating fun inside of a different framework.

Jonathan Puddle  39:45

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  39:46

Case in point, I went and hiked the La Cloche trail, 80 kilometers through rain and snow and freezing temperatures carrying huge packs. We were wet to the bone for three or four days. And while I was researching a bunch of stuff about the hike and pacing and how much food to bring, I came opon from this, this description of Type Two fun. And I had never heard the term before or Type B, either way, but the point is alternative type fun. And the guy described it he's like, these are things that are not like, like, objectively fun while you're enduring them. But you're gonna look back on that as a fun time. That's Type Two fun.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  40:28

Yeah, I love you, Jonathan. I love that this is Type Two fun for you. That is not two, type two fun for me. And I think that's the beautiful thing.

Jonathan Puddle  40:35

And that's fine, right? Like, we're gonna have different things. But it's kind of it's but that's the kind of shift I feel like that we need to make with a bunch of things.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  40:42

Totally.

Jonathan Puddle  40:43

Right, like running through an airport stressed out trying to catch your flight with three kids in tow is not fun. But man, that story is rich to tell later and you have a good laugh. And it ends up being Type Two fun.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  40:57

Okay, so then circling back to everything counts. During the episode, you had shared a story of I don't know, the Lord of the Rings or the Hobbit and how they had kind of built the area first. Let it sit for a year before they started filming.

Jonathan Puddle  41:15

That's right.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  41:15

I've been sitting with that. Because I think that's where I almost wouldn't compass type two fun where it's okay. So I did the mad dash of running through the airport. And it was hard, and we got on the plane and we're ready to cuss each other out. But was that like, when I look back on the trip? Was it worth it? Is it part of the soil and the garden that my children now grow in? And I have grown in Absolutely. Like I wouldn't take away the experience. It's kind of like okay, well, I'm okay. Do like we can do hard things. Brief framework of fun and what creates that rich soil? I don't know I'm.

Jonathan Puddle  42:01

Yeah, yeah. Like, I think I think probably the problem is like that we have, we have split these into different categories. There's productive work. There's hard things. There's fun. And they are distinct categories. I guess that's bogus. They're not distinct categories. They can each be nestled within one another. And so we need to see fun. What we're I think what we've been talking about here is seeing fun as valuable. But it's also seen work as fun.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  42:28

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  42:29

And seeing productive things as being fun. And if they're not fun that we need to read, do the way we do them. And, and then also, if our fun somehow. If we can't find value in our fun, maybe we need to change the way we're having fun.  Maybe your body actually interesting. Like there are times where I want to play video games. But I know it's actually not going to bring me any joy or peace or rest. What I actually need to go and do Jonathan is have a nap. What I actually need to go is go to Sauna and be present to myself and enjoy that. This whole ranking of fun, but sometimes I'm choosing the wrong one. Which devalues fun.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  43:11

But I think this is it right? Like there's no like, perfect equation. That is fun. Because what's fun for you may not be fun for me. And what's fun for me may not be fun for you. And what's fun for you Monday may not be what's fun for you Tuesday, and that's part of the being present with what your body needs in that moment.

Jonathan Puddle  43:31

Yes, yes.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  43:33

It's a lot of work.

Jonathan Puddle  43:35

Yes, that's right. That's true. That's good. Yeah. Being present to discern. What do I need? What does my child need? What do we need? What do we have available to give? Can we do this a fun way? Am I going to say no, because it was tiring last time. But maybe this time I'm in a different space.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  44:00

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  44:02

So maybe I will just say yes. I said no, the last three times you asked to go to the store because it was it was not going to be good because I was going to the grocery store. I'm not going to bring you to the grocery store child. Absolutely not. This time, I'm just going out to this this errand. And I could sneak off or I could intentionally invite you with me. Because I know I said no three times. And yeah, it'll make a bit slower and whatever. It will be silly. But maybe silly is okay. Maybe silly is actually more than okay.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  44:33

Silly is the win. The win but that's what she felt safe with the silly games. And yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  44:45

Yeah, it's so good. Another another. connected to that also in this creativity book. Okay, clearly everyone needs to go and follow Heather Caliri. Heather has actually been on The Puddcast before, we talked about dignity. Heather's really great. And she has a book coming out at some point in the future called ordinary creativity. If she was meaning to keep that a secret, I'm so sorry. I've spoiled it. She also talks in there about sex reframing sex, in the same kind of terms that we can so often think about. We can have climax as the goal of sex rather than pleasure as the goal of sex, and fun and silliness as goals of ex

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  45:30

And then climax or whatever, buddy, right. And orgasm. Yeah. Yeah, that is a big reframe.

Jonathan Puddle  45:42

Just be present to fun and pleasure and silliness and joy. And if if something has ceased to become joyous, yeah, don't fixate on that thing.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  45:59

And this is what may be joyous one day may not be joyous the next day. So I feel like we've talked about this, right? Like I have my own trauma history around sex. And so this has been a big conversation and like, area of struggle in, in my life and in our marriage. And it's been a journey. But really, and we talked about this on the Sheila Gregoire episode, the big reframe, was that it's not all about intercourse. Like there was still something on the pedestal, whether it was like an orgasm, whether whether it was like, this one way, was like, No, we can you just have fun together. We've completely digressed. But,

Jonathan Puddle  46:36

I mean, this is all still part of it, right? And especially again, like we were talking about as things change, like as our bodies change, as we get older, like all of these things are changing, right? Like I'm I'm already recognizing changes in my libido that I'm assuming, are from age. And, you know, it's like funny to notice and be like, Hmm, that I am my body is. And I think I think men, there's, there's a very, there's not much of a culture around male changing bodies, right? Like, we talked about this with women all the time, or women talk about it with women all the time. But it's a male, our bodies are aging to yes, and yes, we all look at them and salt and pepper, it doesn't mean that our vitality decreases also,

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  47:22

somehow though a dad bod is still far more acceptable than a mum bod anyway. This is, this is different.

Jonathan Puddle  47:29

You know what though. Even that though, is funny, because yeah, for sure, culturally, a dad bod is acceptable. But internally, I am much less accepting of my extra-ness than I am enjoying of my wife's extra-ness. So like, even that's a whole weird thing, right? Can I look at myself, and I've been trying to do this for the last year, and put my hands on my belly and say, "This is not fat. This is joy. This is here, because I ate good food and drank good drinks, often with other people." And I put my hands on my love handles, and I go, this is not extra. This is just fun. This is joy. This is good times. I'm not doing it enough Tryphena because I'm still using language like extra.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  48:18

But I hear you. So we had like a women's night last night. I don't know not really a womens night, we had thing last night where we were talking around bodies. And one of the stations with a coloring sheet of a body and it was like coloring the areas that you feel are sacred. And the areas that you feel are challenges. Why does color the whole thing is challenges. Like why was the entire body head to toe a challenge to me. And like this is as much work as and healing as I do around it. It's still whether it's like, okay, well my head just feels like confusion. And there's a mental health piece or like, there's a white piece or whatever it is, it's still it's a constant walking out and undoing and so I had a similar moment where I've been trying to speak affirmations over my body lately. So I was doing this and I was journaling it out and just being honest about how my body has grown. And I'm like, I want to honor that. Because there have been children that have committed this, there has been COVID that has happened and my body has stayed alive. There has been major life transitions. And I felt like Holy Spirit was like, while your body has had to expand to try to hold space for you. That's it don't want to hold space for myself. But also if I don't hold space for myself, who's gonna do it?

Jonathan Puddle  49:38

Wow.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  49:39

So anyways, this is like

Jonathan Puddle  49:43

Everything counts,

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  49:45

Everything counts, which takes us back to silliness because of everything like there's a vulnerability that has to come for you to be silly. And so for you to be able to be vulnerable. I think you have to be able to honor what you have and be authentic with what you have to then be some of the, like, most brilliant people I know are stand up comedians, who are able to be completely honest about the beautiful and hard parts of their life and all that into silliness. And then there's like a charade, and a performative piece to all of that, right?

Jonathan Puddle  50:22

Kind of its curated. But still, there is a vulnerability there.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  50:29

That, all right, so here's our thing, we're going to try and be more silly.

Jonathan Puddle  50:33

More silly, everybody, because it counts not because it's silly. Not because being silly is silly and meaningless. But because it's a human thing. And thus it has value because God made humans the way we are. Full of value and worth.  Jesus laughed. I've been talking about that with people too, like this whole thing about like 12 disciples, they must have been a couple of clowns among them. I feel like it was really hard as a podcast editor, and promoter to find the one nugget, the one mic drop quote from Dave. But that was just because everything was just so real and good. And like it felt vulnerable and honest. And

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  51:19

it did also feel like a conversation. It didn't feel like we were working around one topic or I mean, we had our questions, we had prep for sure. It didn't feel like we were genuinely going through that. And maybe part of that was I had a kid with me. So I couldn't be my curated professional self. It really was just it had to flow with what was naturally coming up.

Jonathan Puddle  51:41

Yeah, but that flowed so well. Like, I feel like I was the extra guest. And then No, I'm not like in a way for you to be embarrassed, but like, it clicks so well. Like it's one of my favorite interviews in recent memory.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  51:58

So wild to me, is I look

Jonathan Puddle  52:01

at so glad that we started 2023 off with that with this. Let's be joyous and fun. Let's keep having fun this year.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  52:13

Again, but we still in hindsight, we talked about that. Like that was a hard moment for me interviewing with Kaya, she talks about it weekly. Can you believe I met a real life author, and then she makes us read the Kiki book and I'm like, you know so many real life authors.

Jonathan Puddle  52:32

but that's so cool.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  52:35

It really is. It's a highlight of her year. All right.

Jonathan Puddle  52:40

So it counts already. Good. Well, thank you friends for entertaining our musings in all these directions. Grace and peace to you. We'll be back here soon.