#108: How Far You Have Come (with Morgan Harper Nichols)
“Some things that happen to us take a long time to see the beauty in. We feel a lot of pressure to figure things out in a few weeks or months, but it’s OK to take time. It’s OK to take 20 years to see the beauty in your own life.”
Artist and poet extraordinaire, Morgan Harper Nichols returns to The Puddcast this week. We talked all about compassionately reframing our memories of past events, a major theme in Morgan’s new book, How Far You Have Come: Musings on Beauty and Courage. Whether you’re already a fan of Morgan’s work or are discovering her for the first time, I think you’ll find beauty and encouragement to be who you are, where you are right now.
Order How Far You Have Come: Musings on Beauty and Courage, by Morgan Harper Nichols
Visit Morgan online at morganharpernichols.com
Follow Morgan on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook.
Become a supporter of the show on Patreon at patreon.com/jonathanpuddle.
Order my trauma-informed 30-day devotional, You Are Enough: Learning to Love Yourself the Way God Loves You.
Find every book or resource I’ve talked about recently on my Amazon storefront, in Canada, the United States or the United Kingdom.
Don’t forget about the B-Side!
Once you’ve listened to this, make sure to check out the raw and uncut B-Side interview where my friends and I unpack the conversation in even more detail. Available exclusively on Patreon.
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Transcription
Jonathan Puddle 00:02
Hello, my friends welcome back to The Puddcast with me, Jonathan Puddle. This is Episode 108. My guest today is Morgan Harper Nichols. It's her second time on the show, so glad to have Morgan back. We talked all about some themes from her brand new book, How Far You Have Come: Musings on Beauty and Courage. It is not just a collection of poetry and art, though it certainly is that, it adds on more and creates a really beautiful narrative for looking at your own life, and seeing how far you've come. And honestly, right now, in COVID, it's actually been really encouraging to me looking back on this last year, and saying, "Yeah, I didn't know how we would survive. But here we are. And things are hard, but we're making progress." So this is just a gentle, fun conversation. Morgan shared the journey that brought the book to us and we reflect on some things around just being who we are, and recognizing that maybe, maybe the person that we are right here today is all we need to be. So I hope you enjoy it. I should mention quickly, just for clarification's sake that I mentioned I was in COVID isolation— that was few weeks ago when we were still in isolation. We are out of isolation. Thank God for that. Alrighty, here is Morgan Harper Nichols on The Puddcast. Morgan, I am so thrilled to welcome you back to The Puddcast, my friend. Good morning. Hello.
Morgan Harper Nichols 01:34
Good morning. I am so excited to chat with you too. Yes. We meet again.
Jonathan Puddle 01:40
We meet again. It was December 2019. When we last spoke, I think I think I actually aired it on the show in early 2020. But essentially, that was like 150 years ago.
Morgan Harper Nichols 01:53
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, definitely. At least a century ago, at least. Wow!
Jonathan Puddle 02:02
In that time, you know, earth shattering, world changing things have happened, like I released my devotional book, for example.
Morgan Harper Nichols 02:10
Yes.
Jonathan Puddle 02:12
You know, there was a minor world wide pandemic. Can I just say on air, thank you so much for writing a lovely endorsement. For me and my book, that was such a blessing.
Morgan Harper Nichols 02:26
Oh, of course, I really, you know, I was just just reading reading your book. I was just like, you know, this just feels like my people. And I feel like other people feel that way too. So, yeah, it was an honor. It really was really was.
Jonathan Puddle 02:42
I like... the way the alg... the algorithm works, I rarely see your stuff directly. I don't know why, but Instagram clearly doesn't understand.
Morgan Harper Nichols 02:54
That's so interesting.
Jonathan Puddle 02:54
My real priorities...
Morgan Harper Nichols 02:56
I don't see you either. Yeah, I've actually started working on this is so nerdy. And I'm just like, why am I even doing this but whatever. I actually start working on a spreadsheet. I on my computer to keep up with people that and I'll just click on it. And like, oh, let me go see what they're up to. Because yeah, they don't. If it's not like an Instagram Reel with someone doing something, you know, while in three seconds, I feel like they don't show it to me.
Jonathan Puddle 03:22
Isn't that crazy?! That's so funny. I love that you have a spreadsheet. Bravo. And I and I mean, thankfully, because of just how broad your stuff is now, I will just see it in everybody else's stories and feeds. It pops up. But Wow, I sort of like I have I take like a, I take like a bath in your words, every three or four weeks, and I just will like go in deep. And it's just the most soothing gift for my soul. So I know, from the few minutes we spent before we hit record that, you know, that it's costly. And it's hard. And I'm just another thankful person that you keep offering up this rich food for us all because it's like a lifeline.
Morgan Harper Nichols 04:21
Wow. Oh, well, thank you. I I'm so humbled by that. I just yeah, that just really brings me to the ground in the best way so thank you. It really does I just because I definitely get in my head a lot, especially over this past year. Because I went into 2020 with the ambition and the plans and financial investment have we had we were like, oh let's do more events because I just wanted to connect more face to face with people and because I as much as I love sharing online, I just, that disconnect is real for me like, it's hard for me to feel like, this is the ultimate connection. I'm like I like to even though I'm an introvert, like I do love to be able to connect one on one with people. So we invested almost everything, to creating all these events. And they really a few of them happened before, before March came. But But yeah, I would just say all that to say just to be completely transparent, it's been really tough over the past year to to feel, you know, just to be honest, to feel a lot of times, like my work matters, you know, it's just like, and I'm sure a lot of people who put things out there may feel that way of just like you're putting things out there. And it's like, what does this even mean? Like? So it just means a lot to to hear another human being just just voice the connection to it. It's just like, Oh, yeah, that's why you do what you do. It's like, yes, it's been hard because you have not been able to connect like you thought you were going to. But yeah, so that's really special. Thank you.
Jonathan Puddle 06:04
Well, you're so welcome. There. It's a crazy paradox, right? I feel like I don't know if anyone has really put this to page. I don't want to be the one to do it. I want to read it.
Morgan Harper Nichols 06:15
I feel that way all the time. You just yeah, that is that is like oh my god, I don't have the energy or capacity to write about that. But I'd get someone else to.
Jonathan Puddle 06:24
Like? I like like, like I again, I obviously at a much smaller scale. But I also was like, I'm launching my first book in September 2020. I'm gonna do a thing. I've gotten just enough people that I know that I can do a little tour. And I can, and obviously as with every single person that as you alluded to who did the creative thing in 2020... No, it didn't happen. So yeah. And yet, the words that we put out there in 2020 were more necessary than they ever have been. And that's, that's the crazy paradox is that the hunger has been greater than it's ever been. And so our offerings, as humble as they are, have been received with greater joy and relief than they could have otherwise been. And the only thing that it okay, I mean, I don't know if this is real for you. But for me, it's like the only thing that didn't happen was that my ego didn't get stroked.
Morgan Harper Nichols 07:31
Yeah, that is very real, it. It actually, I just watched this, I feel like I mention this every other day but it was just such, it was such an important documentary for me to watch. And it was a documentary on on black artists. And it came out on HBO Max, and it's called Absence of Light. And kind of the the sort of the thesis of the documentary is asking the question, because they're just talking about all these black artists who just weren't appreciated or seen and all the extra work that had to go into getting these artists known. And there's artists in there who says, you know, for for us, we've had to learn how to work in the absence of light. What kind of work are you going to create when no one's watching? When no one's seeing? And that is, I feel like that is for me, that's been the story of this past year, because like you said, I, I was seeking, I was like, okay, just like you I was like, I have just enough people that I could do like this little tour, we can have all these moments. And then when all that was taken away, I was forced to say, "Well, what is this work?" Without that... that, you know, positive affirmation or without that, you know, without all of that, what is this work? And, and yeah, as a result, it's, it's made me go deeper into areas that I never would have even considered, like, and like on a very specific note, I ended up randomly getting into motion graphics and animation. And I started doing that. Because suddenly, when I thought I was gonna be on tour, I'm sitting at home with my toddler, and we're watching all these animated shows. And I'm just like, I think I can do that. And now it's become a huge part of, of what I'm doing now. And it's teaching me so much and, and yeah, it's like that never would have happened had I just been on the road. And that's just one area, that's just one area where I've, I can see I'm like, Wow, I've really gone deeper. I've also have gone deeper in spending a lot less time on social media even and, and just really trying to figure out and challenge myself to make things that okay, I want this to make sense. Even if it never saw the light of day on social media, like I want this to be something that I can be proud of and that I'm proud that I spent time on it even if I'm the only person that ever sees that or only a few people people see it face to face. So, yeah, I'm just asking a lot of questions now. I'm challenging myself in new ways. And, and it's really cool because now we're like, just this week, we were like, Wait a second, we might be able to plan an event for 2022! And that was just so exciting to think about, because it's like, wow, I'm gonna go into that with a lot more gratitude. A lot more growth. That yeah, so yeah, all that to say I, I am definitely on that same page. It's definitely awaken... awakened a lot. For sure.
Jonathan Puddle 10:41
It's like a, I guess it's like a, like a pruning, right? When it's like, everything gets trimmed. And the only thing that can then grow is the roots. When, obviously, this analogy gets used all the time, but, but I don't think I've really thought about it in terms of creative output and COVID. I mean, it's just horrific, feels horrible. I don't like having my arms cut off. It's terrifying.
Morgan Harper Nichols 11:03
Yes, for sure.
Jonathan Puddle 11:05
But I would even say, from what I've, I mean, I, where am I, I'm looking at my PDF how I am about a quarter of the way through your new book, Look How Far You've Come. And it it does feel like a really ahh... what's the right way to put it. Because I loved All Along You Were Blooming, it is wonderful. There... it's not lacking anything. But But this feels perhaps more deeply rooted. And more intentional. It feels maybe like you are trying to intentionally tell us a story. If that makes sense?
Morgan Harper Nichols 11:53
Yes, it does. I, you know, when I had this opportunity to write another book, I was incredibly nervous and anxious about it. I was like, What do I have to say? I don't know... like what do I have to say? And one thing, another thing that I've really grown over on the over the past year... Cause I worked on that this new book, How Far You Have come over the past year, one thing that I've really grown in is learning how to just, even though I'm a writer, to not go right to the words, and to try to look at other things, take in my surroundings, and just kind of sit with it and be with it and see what comes up. So I was feeling really stuck. Because in my mind, I was going to be writing this next book while I was traveling. And I was like, that's gonna feel me, you know, all these events, all these things, I get to be on the road again, because I used to be on the road when I was in music. And then I stopped for a long time, and I love going places I love seeing new things. And yeah, I was like, Well, what am I gonna do? Like, where's my source of inspiration? And I just ended up kind of mindlessly at first going through my phone's camera roll. And going through my phone's camera, I came across this photo that is now the cover of the book, How Far You Have Come. And it's a photo that I took on my phone, driving through, I was riding riding through New Mexico, at sunrise. And it's a photo from the interstate that literally anybody could have taken. Like, it's it's beautiful, but it was just it was all laid out. Like you know, those moments in nature where it's like, it doesn't matter if you've never even picked up a camera before anyone could take that photo, and it would be beautiful. It was one of those moments. And I was just like, wow, like, I just love this image so much. And I've gone back to this image a lot. So I started to paint over it. That's something I love to do. I love to take photography that I have, even if it's just iPhone photography, and I put it in an app like Procreate, or Adobe Fresco, and I'll just paint over and I'll just start painting over it. And as I started painting over it, I started thinking about I was like, isn't it interesting that this photo is so beautiful to me, and it's so beautiful and at the same time, when I look at the date that this photo was taken, this was a really scary time in my life. Just so much uncertainty, exhaustion. I was just done. It was a really rough time. And I was like, isn't it interesting how these two things happen at once. And I was like, you know, there's probably other places on the map, photos and my camera roll where that's true, where there's something beautiful happening in the landscape itself, even though life was challenging. And it's like when you look at that altogether, you can really see like, Wow, I've really made it. There were a lot of things like I've made it physically have made it through so many landscapes. Like when you think about that, I think that's something you take for granted because we have air travel, we have cars. But it's like if you've traveled in anywhere that's 30 minutes away, it's like you've covered some mileage. Like you... back in the day before cars, like that's a journey.
Jonathan Puddle 15:23
Seriously.
Morgan Harper Nichols 15:23
But it's taken a lot more than 30 minutes. So when we think about the sheer amount of miles that we traveled, like, just start with that. Like, don't even start with like all the deep stuff, the intangible stuff, like just start with the physical. How many miles have you actually traveled in your life? How many rooms have you been in? How many landscapes have you been in? It is amazing. And to think that that is only scratching the surface of how far you've come in your life. Like, that's just the physical, we haven't even gotten into the non physical things that have happened in the, in your memory and all of that. It's endless. So that was how I kind of literally found the roadmap for this book. I was like, I'm literally just going to go, I can't travel, I can't get up and travel. But I do have a phone where I can look at Google Maps, I can look through my camera roll. And I can find these moments where those two things were happening at the same time where I was in this place that was beautiful that that because I love nature. I mean, I'm in this place that really impacted me in that way. While simultaneously I was dealing with failure, or I was dealing with insecurity, or I was a child learning about slavery, all these different things. And, yeah, I'm really proud of how it came together. Because it really started out so practical. And that's honestly like, the biggest thing that I want people to take away from the book, I want people to do that with their story. Like, I want other people to go through. Like if you have an iPhone, you can actually go look at the the map section, there's a map section in the photo camera roll part of your phone. And you can actually go look at the map and see photos that you've taken across the map. And yeah, just zoom in see what you find, like what was going on what two things were happening at once. So I could talk about that all day. But it is I guess that's why I wrote a book about it. But that's um, that's kind of how it came to be. And I I literally everything I just said it was a lot less organized. I just called my editor and I was like, "Okay, I just need a few minutes. Let me just unload all of this on you, please tell me if it makes it." So, thankfully, she said, yeah, it actually does make sense. So um, yeah, I started working on it from there. And yeah,
Jonathan Puddle 15:30
That is so cool. Man. I honestly, like you're putting me into your journey and my own journey, even just as I'm, as I'm hearing that, right. Like, I did all this research ancestry research on my family a couple years ago. And there's this, there's this element in my family of pushing to the new horizons, right? Like if you, if you live in a colony, as a white person, that's because at one point someone went traveling. And so essentially, there's even talk of this, there's a particular gene that biases towards exploration. And all that was to say that I found this one branch of my family. My wife's family, actually, in Finland, who, like no one had left like 30 square miles for 500 years.
Morgan Harper Nichols 18:35
Wow.
Jonathan Puddle 18:36
And then her grandfather did.
Morgan Harper Nichols 18:39
Wow.
Jonathan Puddle 18:41
That's weird. And..
Morgan Harper Nichols 18:43
That is really interesting.
Jonathan Puddle 18:44
And I'm grateful for that. Because I've met my wife but but yeah, the the space, the journey, the time you there's this poem you've got? Is it a poem? Or is it I don't even remember now, because it's all blurring together in my head, but it's either I think it's a poem, or it's one of your, your just narrative pieces. In this book. Where you talk about traveling with the windows down and tasting and hearing, and even just just understanding that the road isn't lonely. And I was like, Oh, dang, that is literally the difference I feel driving versus cycling. When I'm in the car, I feel a sense of disconnection and loneliness. But when I put the windows down, I don't. When I'm riding my bike, I don't when I'm on foot, I feel connected to the world around me. And that's good. But also like I've, I have felt so because none of us can travel right and I love to travel as well and I grew up traveling I have felt so I have my soul has felt very trapped. Right? And I haven't been I haven't been able to see my mother, my father. like my family on other sides of the world and I have felt I have had a very complicated relationship with Instagram photography, travel photography. On the one hand i'm like get the hell out of here with your travel photos, on the other hand i'm like, no i need it! Give me the methadone! Give it to me now!
Morgan Harper Nichols 20:20
i literally... okay, at some point in the pandemic, I don't know when it was, I found a YouTube video of someone walking the hallway through the Louvre for like four hours and I sat I watched the entire thing. So why are there so like why am I watching this but why there is no narration, nothing. They were just walking through the Louvre and I've just vicariously living through them just walking with them through so yeah i get it
Jonathan Puddle 20:53
I have been to the louvre but I was seven years old, um. But I remember The Mona Lisa.
Morgan Harper Nichols 21:02
That's fascinating. Wow, that's so cool.
Jonathan Puddle 21:06
And I remember of course that just the glass...
Morgan Harper Nichols 21:08
yeah
Jonathan Puddle 21:09
pyramid roof, cause that's cool.
Morgan Harper Nichols 21:12
Yes, that is so cool. Yeah I have a very silly moment where I was in I was in Paris and we were only there for a few days a few years ago and we were literally right in front of the Louvre and I just I was like, oh we'll get back to it later. And then we ended up not going on that trip and now I'm just like, wow, okay Morgan, like really. So I've been right there but I haven't been inside. But yeah, I am with you and that is a simultaneous thing that's happening within where it's like, it's like on one hand i'm like, Oh i'm tired of seeing other people especially like living in the US, like seeing other countries who kind of have their stuff together a little bit more you know, they kind of took lockdown seriously earlier. Now other people are traveling and opening up their borders to each other and I'm just sitting here in the US.
Jonathan Puddle 22:03
In California.
Morgan Harper Nichols 22:05
Yeah, I actually moved to Arizona! Another thing that happened in all of in the past since the last time we talked. But um yeah I'm just sitting here feeling like I'm a part of like a really massive group project with millions of people just wanting everyone to do their part, so yeah it's it's hard. Because I yeah I feel like moving and seeing different places, I mean it feels me so much and just even go back to the camera roll of my life over the past year and just see like... no trace of your path to all the other places I will end up calling, like you know, there's there's the grief there. You know, there's there's loss there and you know, kind of going back to the book, like, I'm not trying to be with those people like oh listen to my book, but it's remember but it really is it's so a part of just where my mind is right now because I thought I was going to write this book on the road. And I ended up writing it at home looking back at moments on the road and it's very hard to to look at that sometimes because you wish you could go. um I have family I haven't seen, you know, just so many things like that and at the same time, it's it's taught me so much about just beauty and and how how how how because I feel like true beauty is just so rich it actually takes time, years even, to go back and see the beauty in some things. And you kind of have to be removed from it, I think sometimes to really see it for all that it is. Like there's several stories in that book where I've had to realize, I'm like, you know even though I thought I was gonna go travel back to that place and write about it there, I needed to kind of be away from it and and kind of look at it as a memory and really see it from that perspective.I think if I had gone there and I traveled there I don't know if I would have even picked that up.
Jonathan Puddle 24:19
Wow.
Morgan Harper Nichols 24:19
So...
Jonathan Puddle 24:20
That extra distance, I wonder, is it easier to do the compassionate reframing.
Morgan Harper Nichols 24:26
Ahh. I just got chills when you said that.
Jonathan Puddle 24:30
But if you had boots on the ground. It's not impossible but...
Morgan Harper Nichols 24:36
Oh there's something to that. I don't know if you have this experience but one thing that happens to me a lot is if I go somewhere, even if i hadn't been there in years, I can, I can kind of start remembering everything that happened in that place. Like you could go plop me on my college campus, I haven't been there in years and I would just start getting flooded with memories and emotions and feelings.
Jonathan Puddle 24:57
Yeah sure.
Morgan Harper Nichols 24:58
But I wouldn't, I don't think I would be as compassionate to myself in that setting. I think that it does take kind of looking back and, and. And because I think when you're able to look back, and this is what I did within the book, it's like, not even so much focusing on the personal stories all the time, but looking at the actual landscape and, and thinking about what, how does the weather impact me? In my life, you know, how did it impact me that, you know, when I was in college, I used to walk up that hill every day, like, like, what does that do to my body? Like, what? What did that do? To my mind? Um, yeah, I think a lot of that kind of stuff is just hard to think about in real time. Like, it takes kind of being removed and, and just kind of sitting with it for a while. And yeah, I think the last part of that that's just been really special to me is, I had a moment where I was reading the audiobook a few weeks ago, and it was an essay that I already written. In the book when I was about seven years old. The story is set when I was seven years old. And I have like, a whole new revelation about it, that and the second I had that moment, I, I honestly felt like God was telling me, it took you over two decades to really see that. And that's okay. And there's going to be more that you see in another two decades, and that's okay. And I just like rather than recording the audiobook, I just started bawling. Like, like, it was just such a serious moment for me, because I was like, I put so much pressure on myself, to figure things out, to find the goal, find the meaning find the good and figure out okay, what does all this mean? And it's like, that took over two decades. And that's okay. Like, like, the, our whole concept of time is like, Okay, you got to figure things out, you know, a couple weeks, months or a year or two, and it's like, no. Life is so, it's okay, it's okay to take that time. So that's something I've been, I've been sitting with lately of like, you know, what things are happening in my life right now that I have no idea is for me forming and it's gonna take a very long time to see that. And am I okay with that? So yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 27:33
That is so real. Oh, man. I just, one of the poems I read this morning, I forget, I was just trying to search for it but the PDF that I have doesn't let me search. Oh, yeah. But it was like this. Basically, the point was like, the trees just stand there.
Morgan Harper Nichols 27:53
Oh, yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 27:54
And that's enough.
Morgan Harper Nichols 27:55
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 27:56
And I was, I was powerfully provoked, my friend. I was like, oh, and I'm looking out my window at this big fir tree. And I was like, you are doing exactly what you're for. I'm never gonna look at you the same way. I need to see myself like this.
Morgan Harper Nichols 28:19
Mhmmm.
Jonathan Puddle 28:20
This morning, I took out, I went to go and collect the garbage, the recycling and the garbage dumpsters because they get picked up early Monday morning. And I was wheeling them back into their, their spot by the garage. And I had this sudden memory. For whatever reason, I have this birthday party that I went to with friends maybe 10 years ago. And I just felt at the time really, I was about like five years younger than everybody there. And I and I, and I just felt it. And I felt that I wasn't as cool as everybody else. And I just I looked up to all these people and my my wife is one of them. And I just loved all these people. I thought they were so cool. And I felt like I was just really trying hard to to get there. Right. And I mean, yeah, I was probably 25-26 and and I just had this moment that must have been triggered by the weather. You know what, exactly what you're just saying. Because it's so cold here but it's spring and so we've got like bright sun but it's still like zero degrees Celsius. I think the snow is melted but there are flurries.
Morgan Harper Nichols 29:36
Wow.
Jonathan Puddle 29:38
I just I just suddenly was like, Jonathan, all those people loved you, man. And I know that you are struggling to see it. And that's okay. Maybe it took 10 years. But everybody there loved you. And I was like Hmm. That's really good. That's good news. And it was just, you know, that little compassionate reframing. And I suspect for you, and I like take Well, I guess two things. Before I say what I suspect, this book doesn't feel like you were prohibited from entering into anything necessary to do it wholeheartedly.
Morgan Harper Nichols 30:24
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 30:25
So I know you are, have had to wrestle with "Ugghh, I wanted to do this on the road". It feels to the reader like you are, it totally feels to me like the book of a roadtrip movie, and you are doing it. So whether your spirit is there, whether it's just your linguistic ability, the whole thing, it doesn't in any way feel like we suffer. And conversely, because you had to do the work and couldn't travel, it's probably richer for it. And so thank you, again, for doing something hard and painful. Because it invites us to do the same and to do that reframing and to enter into those parts of our own story. And my suspicion is, I have had some experience with this, I'm sure you have to is that from a distance as we do that compassionate reframing, when we do get boots on the ground later, it closes the loop in a way that couldn't have happened, maybe because it would have been like you said, sensory overload. If we hadn't done that contemplative, integrative work.
Morgan Harper Nichols 31:39
You are preaching. Yeah. Wow, that is so true. And it just requires so much patience. And so much of like, some like, especially for those of us who like we said, we love to go, we're like, No, I just need to go there. And I know that I'll be fine.
Jonathan Puddle 31:59
Because that's life. I need life!
Morgan Harper Nichols 32:02
I know. But it's like, or what if like, what if you just being here is what you where you need to be right now. And doesn't mean you're going to be here forever. Wow. Yeah. So I'm learning that because you know, as you were saying that I just had the realization, I was like, Yeah, I haven't. Since I've written all those essays in the book. I haven't been to any of those places.
Jonathan Puddle 32:27
But you will.
Morgan Harper Nichols 32:28
Yeah, it's just, it's so interesting, how much how much there is to that, and what I feel like I'm still learning, even in this conversation, of just just the richness that's there and how it really kind of takes that takes time. And it's okay to take that time. Yeah,
Jonathan Puddle 32:52
We'll take a quick break, so I can say thank you to everyone who supports the show on Patreon. Whether you're giving monthly or annually, whether you're giving $3 or $50, I am blessed to have you supporting the show, I'm so thankful for you. I'm thankful that you're in my corner. Thank you for letting me have these conversations, and bring this stuff to everybody. It is such a blessing. Friends, if you have been enjoying the show, if you'd like to become a supporter, you can sign up patreon.com/JonathanPuddle, you can join up for as little as $3 a month. And you will gain access to all kinds of supporter-only content, including the weekly B-Sides where my friends and I sit down and unpack a recent podcast, and talk all about behind the scenes stuff. Lots of fun. So patreon.com/JonathanPuddle, we'd love to have you. Thanks a lot. Back to the show. So I had a really wild experience while reading the book this morning. And as we discussed I'm, we're both kind of clinging to life by the fingertips. I think I sometimes wonder, you know, does the when when we're just sitting here laughing because we have nothing, because otherwise we'll just cry.
Morgan Harper Nichols 34:07
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 34:08
Does the listener go "Oh, wow"
Morgan Harper Nichols 34:11
Yeah. The pendulum swings, one way or the other.
Jonathan Puddle 34:13
"Their lives must be so great." So, you know, I'm reading your story. And I'm, you know, and my three my kids are all at home, because we're on COVID isolation, and, and I'm counting down the clock until I can go to the website and find my COVID results. And I'm trying to and it's very frustrating. And I also I know I'm speaking to you in a few hours, and so I'm kind of like Jonathan, I really want to be present. I really want to be here. There's, there's so much temptation to not be here, as there always is, but I feel like it's so heightened right now. And so, I'm reading and I'm doing my best to read slow and to read it into my soul. And I'm touched, I was crying, I think in about four minutes. I think, just by the end of the introduction, I was just like, oh, man, if I start to cry, I'm gonna get a headache.
Morgan Harper Nichols 35:13
Oh no!
Jonathan Puddle 35:13
And then it's a whole thing. Anyway, it's so beautiful. And then, then this whole thing just suddenly happened in my head and my heart. Okay. And rereading my notes of what happened, it sounds really elementary. So I almost feel like I don't want to even share it, because I feel like this is like obvious news. But here's what happened to me: All of a sudden, I suddenly began to consider life and see life, like—let's talk in kind of philosophical metaphysical terms here—as, like a tapestry. And I know, like, I've read people talking about, everything gets woven in, blah, blah, blah, yes, I've had those conversations with people. But suddenly, I just saw it. This deeper level, how each and every one of us get woven into this thing, and the way that we interact with others. And even how we choose to observe beauty in the world, that changes us. And, and, but we are not independently existing from the cosmos. And so by, by receiving the beauty of the world into ourselves, the world is still, is changed by our appreciation of it. Like like quantum theory, just to observe something, you change it's state. And so even in observing the world, and calling it good, like, like Genesis tells us God did, we change the tapestry further, and of course, we continually are changed. And, and then in my mind's eye, the tapestry, like became a river. And it was like this boundless river of, of every kind of color. And, and woven in part of this river is every human being that has ever lived, and every part of the cosmos, the entire created thing, moving and rippling and bubbling along. And it was going somewhere good.
Morgan Harper Nichols 37:39
That touches me. Huh. Yeah. I want to be a part of that. Yeah, that's, you know, and in a way, it's interesting, because it's like what you described is complex. However, simultaneously, it takes the pressure off of the individual. And it's like, it's not up to you to try to, like perceive everything, and then put it out perfectly, and then figure out exactly how it's going to connect and lineup in the world. It's like, you don't know. It's like you don't know, like I ,I, kind of reminds me of a thought that I have sometimes, like, what are, cause I'm of those people that like, listen to the same songs I listened to, like 15 years ago, like, my playlist gradually changes over time, but it's very slow. And I'll have these moments sometimes I'm listening to some band that stopped performing like 15 years ago, and they never even had an Instagram page like this for years years ago. And I think about, like, in I can't even find the artists to thank them for the song. That's what I'm getting at. And I'm like, isn't it interesting how this person may have no idea that this track number eight on their second independently released album, has, has ripple effects through time and space, years later across the planet. They have no idea that that's happening, that I'm having this whole spiritual encounter with something that they put out into the world years ago that they that may not even... and I like thinking about that, especially with like, lesser known artists, because I feel like when it's a popular song, it's like, well, you know, Hallelujah obviously changed some people's lives. We know that, but it's like that's happening all the time, with so many different things. And because they're not popular or well known all the time, we don't realize it, but it's it's all kind of a part of that tapestry. And that's why I love how you talked about the river because it's it's... it's like, yeah, it's not like this fixed thing. It's this thing that's woven in. And none of us can carry on our own, none of us can, can really kind of pull back and look at it, because we're all a part of it. So yeah, I feel like we just have to trust. We just have to trust that, like, you know, what I, what we're taking in is..., and what we're putting out, like it... has its place. And, yeah, that I feel like that's just really encouraging, just on a creative level, too, because there's so much pressure to make something important or valuable or meaningful. And so, or, what if, like, the way you painted that pink, that one day, very passively just awakened a childhood memory and someone who passively saw it on Instagram and got them to call their childhood friend who, who they haven't spoken to in 10 years, like, you can't control that, like, there's no way we can control that. And that's a beautiful thing.
Jonathan Puddle 41:07
I wonder if what happened was like, because I'm a very visual person, and I'm a systems thinker, and so I wonder if all of your words and all the things that I've been going through lately, and all these things, just coalesced in a visual representation in my head of what, what my heart was like, if all this is true, then it's really got to mean something. And it's all those words, you just said: trust, removal of pressure. All these like, we're enough. Like, I can stand there, like the tree outside my house. Like, if you and I never did another thing for another human soul. We have, we've dropped ripples. And and we're already welcome. And even if we've never done any of the things we've done, we're welcome in that stream. And the stream calls us home. And I'm sitting there on the couch trying to like, oh, oh, oh, wow. And I'm like, do I write this down? Do I just sit here and enjoy the sacredness of the moment? Do I just keep reading Morgan's work? What, what am I meant to do? In this moment, and I flipped to the next page, and I read you write, "In love, there is room for all of you." And I was like, I don't know if she's saying to me, like all the parts of me or if she's just talking to the universe and saying, all of you fit here in love because that's the kind of God we have. That's the order of this universe he created, that everything gets woven in, good and bad and suffering. And
Morgan Harper Nichols 42:49
Uhh... I love, yes...
Jonathan Puddle 42:51
All welcome.
Morgan Harper Nichols 42:52
I'm so glad that you said that. Because I am. I'm actually very intentional with writing things where you're not sure if I'm talking to a human or something in nature. I'm actually very intentional about that. Because I have found in my own life, that I will give more grace to things in nature than to myself. And so yes, sometimes I literally just write to the tree. And then I just say, this is a poem for that tree. This is a poem for that flower. This is a poem for that mountain. And then I kind of create some distance from it, and I see Oh, that's also for myself. Like, what's true for that tree? It's also for me. And it's Yeah, that's something that I I invite other people to do who may struggle with that. Like, you know, if you hear if someone says to you, like you're not and you're like, Yeah, but am I, you gotta have that skepticism. I'm like, Okay, well is the tree enough? Let's just forget about you for a second, and there's like you said the tree literally outside your window teaching you that about yourself. And yeah, that's just like all the stuff is here for a reason. That trees in your yard for a reason, those flowers are growing there for the reason, the clouds that are that are big and taking up space and floating by slowly, like there's there's there's something in all that. So yeah, that's been giving me a whole lot of comfort over the past year because you know, I like the trees in my yard but I want to see other trees. I like the flowers in this neighborhood, but I'm like I want to go see other flowers. I want to go see flowers in front of a mountain. So yeah, I I've been going a lot deeper with that. So that's a kind of going back to what we were originally talking about. That was that's another like I'll show you I mean, I know we're doing a podcast but literally right next to the the the to my desk. I have this like kids encyclopedia.
Jonathan Puddle 44:59
Wow.
Morgan Harper Nichols 45:00
And this is what the page was open to. Why? Because I've just been learning about leaves. I mean, this I'm like, you know, I want to be able to, to name leaves and figure out which leaves.
Jonathan Puddle 45:11
Morgan is not kidding. She's got like a full-on children's encyclopedia of natural history. And it's like, here's, here's 50 different leaf patterns. And it looks really great.
Morgan Harper Nichols 45:23
So yeah, that's I'm getting really practical with this. I'm just like, there are lessons in these leaves, like, I'm going to learn about them.
Jonathan Puddle 45:32
Did you read, Native, Kaitlin Curtice's most recent book?
Morgan Harper Nichols 45:38
Yes.
Jonathan Puddle 45:39
Because a lot of that was happening in my head and heart while reading her like,
Morgan Harper Nichols 45:43
Oh, yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 45:45
That was last summer.
Morgan Harper Nichols 45:46
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 45:47
And I was like, I remember camping a lot last summer. And I saw every rock and every tree differently. Because she had invited me to do exactly that.
Morgan Harper Nichols 45:58
You're so yeah, she definitely. With that book, she what you're talking about, about how we can... how, you know, observing something changes it? Yeah, she definitely did that with that book. For sure.
Jonathan Puddle 46:13
That's so fun. I feel like I needed this conversation, more than I realized. Anything what what, anything else about this book that you just want to share with us? I mean, I'm loving it. And I again, I'm gonna have to go and buy it. Because this year, they didn't even send me a paper version.
Morgan Harper Nichols 46:31
Oh, I know. They're they're actually
Jonathan Puddle 46:33
technology.
Morgan Harper Nichols 46:34
Yeah, I know. And then because of the pandemic, the books are their... They're in a ship somewhere in the
Jonathan Puddle 46:39
Oh, no, they're delayed. Oh...
Morgan Harper Nichols 46:41
We don't know when they're gonna get here.
Jonathan Puddle 46:44
But they will get there.
Morgan Harper Nichols 46:45
Yeah, I
Jonathan Puddle 46:45
Like the rest of us.
Morgan Harper Nichols 46:46
I'm like, yeah,
Jonathan Puddle 46:47
Morgan, like the rest of us. We may have no bloody clue how we get through today. But by God, we will.
Morgan Harper Nichols 46:55
Yeah, like, Can we go swim out to them and just get our own little boat and just take my books off and roll them back to shore? But they said no. So yeah, somewhere in the Pacific right now. But I'm gonna say, Oh, yeah, I think one little thing about the book that I have photography, and not a lot. I have some photography in the book now. And, yeah, I would just love people to know that every photo in this book was taken on my phone. And I say that because again, I just feel like, so many of us have had to just modify our creative practices and things that we enjoy doing. And I just, I really am like, becoming like an evangelist about this. Like, I just think we all need to just go through our camera rolls and just find those photos that are that we just took passively, you know, they're, they're in the middle of 1000 other photos from a trip four years ago, and spend time with them. Whether we paint them, where we print them out, you know, make them black and white, everything looks better in black and white, like make it black and white and just blow it up and put it in a frame in your house to make it a moment. It's while we're having to be still. And we're not able to go where we want to go or do things the way we normally do them. I just think that there's there's so much to that, if you have that, I think it's just a great way to use the smartphone and to use technology. So yeah, if you happen to see this book, all those photos, iPhone photos, and it's it's very intentional in that way. So I just hope it can be a reminder to me and other people that even in the smallest ways, there's so much beauty and we can make something out of it.
Jonathan Puddle 48:43
So I'm thinking now that you and Aundi Kolber need to write a book together on practically how to use your photo, use your photo reels to pay to pay compassionate attention to yourself.
Morgan Harper Nichols 48:58
Yes. Okay.
Jonathan Puddle 48:59
Like a total mash up of the two of you.
Morgan Harper Nichols 49:01
I am going to call her and we'll figure that out. Because that Yeah, she got... her book had just so many just inspiring practices and things along those lines. And she even in the book, she quotes one of my favorite poets ever John O'Donohue and my favorite things he ever talked about. And he, he, I would say that he probably has a lot of maybe not even loosely, a lot of influence over my writing. And that's interesting, because it's like, by the time I found out about him, he was no longer living. And I just find that to be so humbling of just like, wow, the gift that you've given in the world. I mean, I have wept. I have wept, reading his words. And yeah, we'll never meet in this in this world. But I say all that to say she wrote about that in the book. She quoted him talking about beauty and about how beauty is so involved in looking back back and looking at your life in this you know kind of holistic way. So yeah yeah I can't wait till we can all, I hope that someday we can all meet in person and just be together in a room.
Jonathan Puddle 49:04
Oh yes.
Morgan Harper Nichols 50:08
I think something will come out of that
Jonathan Puddle 50:15
Oh, let's do that. I have never been to..
Morgan Harper Nichols 50:17
yeah that
Jonathan Puddle 50:18
Have I been to Arizona? I don't think I've been to Arizona.
Morgan Harper Nichols 50:20
Really? Well there's the grand canyon here
Jonathan Puddle 50:23
I've always wanted...
Morgan Harper Nichols 50:24
It's kind of known for that little that little rock face. So if you're ever if you ever hear let me know, I live like just outside of Phoenix so yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 50:37
Awesome, Morgan. Thank you. This has been such a delight. I wonder if you would pray for us today, whatever is whatever you're feeling.
Morgan Harper Nichols 50:48
Yes. God, I thank you for giving us the opportunity every day to notice beauty and be a part of beauty. Something good, something great, even if on some of those days it's feels pretty subtle. Just to know that it is there and that the threads of good, threads of grace, threads of great love are woven throughout the universe and just want to say thank you for that and may we all continue to travel through life opening with open hearts that are open to the ever widening circles that invite us to experience that more and more every day. Thank you. Amen.
Jonathan Puddle 51:44
Amen! Thank you, Morgan. Friends go hit the show notes to order Morgan's brand new book How Far You Have Come: Musings on Beauty and Courage, comes out at the end of April. You can pre order it now, get in on that so as soon as those ships do arrive you'll get it. Also in the show notes you'll find links to that documentary that she was talking about, Black Art: In the Absence of Light. I've linked that there. Kaitlin Curtice's book Native and everything that we talked about there is in the show notes. You'll also find the audio transcription in case you know someone who is hard of hearing, or English maybe isn't their first language and we talked too fast go and give them a copy of the text transcript. That is made possible by my patrons! Thank you once again to everybody who has made that possible. Friends, today is Maundi Thursday. We're heading into Easter weekend i'm preaching on Good Friday for our church, Catch The Fire in Kitchener and it's... I know it's weird again we're here we are it's a weird time. I'm having a really difficult time getting my head into Holy Week but I think that's part of the beauty of this time and this season and of God and even of what Morgan and I were talking about. It's not up to me, it's not all on me so I am leaning-in to thousands of years of people loving God and pursuing God. I'm leaning into centuries of church tradition that say, God is here with us. That God came to set us free from darkness and fill us with light. So happy Easter to you. Grace and peace. May you find yourselves able to lean into these rhythms, these holy encounters with God where you find yourself profoundly loved. Catch ya next week.