#132-B: Unpacking Katie Gaddini on single women leaving the church
The B-Side is back! Katie Gaddini’s evocative book unveiling the factors that cause single women to feel alienated in the church triggered some THOUGHTS from both Tryphena and myself. Having both served in churches for many years, we each shared some of the ways we’ve seen “the ideal Christian woman” trope play out, why this and other things are so problematic, and what we want to see happen. We talked about a deep faith in Jesus bringing about a wide embrace of people, how we each need to be doing the work of growth and introspection, how marriage can be a framework of control, church NDAs and more!
For maximum impact, make sure you listen to the source episode, #132: Why single women are leaving the church (with Dr. Katie Gaddini).
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Transcription
Jonathan Puddle 00:00
All right friends, very quick announcement: I am running a Christmas giveaway. It closes in eight days time that will be Friday, the 2nd of December. I am giving away 3 books. A signed copy of You Are Enough: Learning to Love Yourself the Way God Loves You, by me. It is also signed by Aundi Kolber who wrote the foreword. I'm giving away the audiobook of Dr. Allison Cook's incredible The Best of You: Break Free from Painful Patterns, Mend Your Past, and Discover Your True Self in God. And Marc Alan Schelske's brand new book on journaling, Journaling for Spiritual Growth: Six Weeks to Build a Habit that Fosters Spiritual and Emotional Maturity. And it is excellent, along with a $20 VISA gift card, some delicious Christmas treats and some locally made ornaments, handwritten card from us. There's a whole bunch of ways that you can enter the draw, you need to head over to JonathanPuddle.com/giveaway. That will get you in the draw. There's actually 3 of you that are going to win this. So go sign up, there's there's a bunch of ways that you can enter the draw on it's a bunch of ways you can get extra entries to win. And go tell your friends. And yeah, so excited to be able to give back. You folks really blessed and overwhelmed us in the last few weeks when we were in need. And so just a little something that we can do to say thanks and Merry Christmas. So JonathanPuddle.com/giveaway to get in on this wholeness and joy Christmas package. That's it.
Jonathan Puddle 01:34
Hey, friends, welcome back to The Puddcast B-Side!
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 01:37
hey, hey.
Jonathan Puddle 01:39
We missed one in there. But that's okay. Because
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 01:43
It was intentional. We chose to.
Jonathan Puddle 01:45
Yes. We retrospectively chose to, which is actually true. Yeah. Hey, there's this heavy burden hanging over my head. Oh, you know what we could do? Cut it off?
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 01:57
Not doing it.
Jonathan Puddle 01:58
Now I feel great. So that is the end of this episode. Enjoy that nugget of wisdom everybody. We're done.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 02:07
Listen, if we're not going to practice what we're praying what we're preaching, then what are we doing? So
Jonathan Puddle 02:11
Totally. So this time, though, we are talking all about Katie Gaddini, who was just on The Puddcast, talking about her brilliant book, The Struggle to Stay: Why Single Evangelical Women Are Leaving the Church. And I love Katie.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 02:28
I'm like fan-girling hard over her. She is an absolute brilliant mind.
Jonathan Puddle 02:34
A brilliant mind.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 02:35
Amazing.
Jonathan Puddle 02:36
A clearly kind and discerning soul.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 02:39
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 02:40
A thorough researcher.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 02:43
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 02:44
And with beautiful language and prose,
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 02:48
like an incredible writer and kinder than she needs to be in some situations. She has more grace than I would about certain topics.
Jonathan Puddle 02:54
Yeah, she's generous.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 02:56
Yeah. Very much so.
Jonathan Puddle 02:57
Yeah. So let me read two little segments to set us up here today. This is from page 216, the final chapter, The Struggle to Stay. "Single evangelical women desire to be valued and treated equally within their religious communities. They want to be told that their worth lies outside of what they do or do not do with their bodies. They want more acceptance and less judgment. They want the freedom to express who they are, without the pressure to conform. Some want to pursue a career. Others desire to be church leaders. Most want to enjoy singlehood without being rushed into marriage. In short, they desire more acceptable ways of being." Like it doesn't sound like too much to ask.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 03:51
It's like, really? They're just asking for choice. To make their own agency to make their own decisions.
Jonathan Puddle 03:58
Yeah, pretty much dignity. Yeah. Agency.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 04:02
Respect.
Jonathan Puddle 04:03
Yeah.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 04:04
Like see me as an image bearer of God. Also. Let's just start there.
Jonathan Puddle 04:09
Yeah. Yeah, I like, can we just rebuild on that? For everybody?
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 04:19
Yeah. Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 04:21
For single women, for single men. For gay members of our church, for all kinds of queer people in our church, for people of color in our of all colors in our churches, for children in our churches, for for the elderly, for widows and widowers in our church.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 04:41
That's exactly it.
Jonathan Puddle 04:42
I, I edited a book for a client in the last couple of years. And she wrote about it's basically a guide to being married to an unbeliever. And it was really interesting. She is writing within like a conservative evangelical framework. And she encountered Christ and became a follower of Jesus and joined the church. And her husband never did. And, and she's kind of laid out a practical guide, but she lays out all the problems, and it's this exact stuff. It's you are treated like a second class citizen.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 05:26
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 05:27
Everybody assumes she's single. Yeah. And then she's like, No, I'm married. Oh, but where's your husband? Oh, well, he, he doesn't come to church. Oh, she, she doesn't want to hang out with all the married couples and their families. Because that's a bit painful. She doesn't want to hang out with the single people. Because partly she was like, because they're the worst. Like they're... Not because single people are but because church singles groups are the worst and...
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 06:02
100% Horrible.
Jonathan Puddle 06:04
And you know, that's what struck me working on her project. I was like, this is and this is injust. There is a problem here. You know, and essentially, she said, the, the group that she ends up gravitating to in churches, if my memory serves is the widows. Who were like not single and on the prowl.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 06:27
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 06:29
But it kind of are like. Yeah, I had a spouse. You know, and she's like, so basically, I get treated like my spouse is dead. But you know, I also love my spouse. And I'm also committed to my spouse. Surely things that the church should be supporting?
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 06:50
Isn't it ironic? Sorry, my doorbell was ringing for a second. Okay. Um, yeah, it's so ironic how, like, what is considered... what makes you a person of value in the church? I was having a conversation with a friend this morning. And they were having a conversation with a friend. So this is two people removed. And they had lost someone significant to them in their life, and their co worker had like, dropped off a meal and shown all this love to them. And it called to check in and be like, Hey, how are you doing? And this individual was like, was shocked. They called my friend and they were like, I can't believe this person was so nice. They were behaving like a Christian. Like, they were so loving to me. I was like, I'm sorry. Like, can people who are not also Christians show love and be loving? Like, are we not all made in the image of God? Can we not see love and joy and peace, in everybody? Like, what is this hierarchy we've created of who is of value and who is not... so even with these women, it's, well, we can't understand your partner being non Christian. So we just have to assume they're dead. Like, that's the easiest way for us to reconcile that. So we can also see the presence of Christ moving in them?
Jonathan Puddle 08:04
Or even support you in your faithful decision to do something that we don't understand.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 08:08
And that's exactly it. Like, you don't have to understand every decision that someone makes that's between them and their Creator. Right?
Jonathan Puddle 08:18
Totally. Totally. I know, I like my, my brain goes into, okay, how do we solve this problem? Because I think Katie and others have obviously done a really excellent job at articulating these kinds of problems. Okay. It's essentially an exit path, right? It's a it's like a funnel towards the door. And, and I, I was intrigued talking to Marc... your Marc, the other day when he was talking about about Lakeside, and how he sort of tells people... he likes to tell people who are new and you'll know his language better than me. That it's kind of like yeah, like we we want to go deep with Jesus. And that means like that we have a really wide acceptance. So so we're going to so there's gonna be people here in this thing that are going to offend you and that like, like that, that's should be what happens. Like, if we're going really deep into Jesus. Yeah, we should be widening and widening and widening the net.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 09:26
I think that's it. It's the whole deep faith, wide embrace thing, right?
Jonathan Puddle 09:29
That, that's the language there it is.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 09:30
That is his his line. Where the more that we walk in step with Jesus, we realize Jesus loved people so well, regardless of where they were at. Right. And that's hard. And I won't even lie like even today I was driving back for this interview, and I was in my head. I'm like, I'm thinking of certain people that I'm angry at that I just want to cut off in my life and like I have no need for you. And I'm like, This is me, actually not living out what I believe. If I believe like deep faith wide embrace, that even though our value sets are different, even though I believe you're hurting people with what you're practicing, I should have space for you to some degree, right? Like for you to walk that out with Jesus, like not that you don't... like I'm not saying we never call someone out other stuff and you know, put boundaries around toxic people, just hear me. But it just, it is a hard journey. I don't know. I was thinking a lot about what Katie talked about because we have a very unhealthy hierarchy in the church of what it means like to be ideal Christian and she kind of talked about the ideal Christian woman. But the ideal Christian being married. Which is so mind boggling to me when Jesus was not married. Jesus didn't have no babies. So where is this that for some reason to be the ideal Christian you have to be married to a hot partner, have like 2.5 kids, have the white picket fence, like all the things right?
Jonathan Puddle 10:57
Yes.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 10:58
Because I've talked to so many girlfriends or and guy friends who when they were single felt no value in the church.
Jonathan Puddle 11:04
Yes.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 11:07
This I like, it's so easy for me to listen to her interview and be like, actually, this affects all of us, like single, married, male, female, non binary, like regardless sexual sexuality. I think so many people are struggling to stay in the church right now. Because of a lack of congruency and feeling of acceptance and love. But I also just want to honor that she was specifically studying like single women. And the fact that there's a whole other cat... like, there's so much that they face that we haven't had to unpack personally.
Jonathan Puddle 11:37
Yeah, yeah yeah. So okay. Yeah, you're absolutely, yes. Absolutely. If you're a single woman, we see you and we are trying to see you better.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 11:47
Yes.
Jonathan Puddle 11:49
But I think let's dig into this right here. Because this is so fascinating. Okay, Jesus, you just said Jesus didn't have, no babies? Absolutely. Paul literally says, if you can stay single: way better. You're going to be so much more productive. Like, obviously not producting of babies, but like,
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 12:08
You're not gonna be fighting with someone.
Jonathan Puddle 12:09
He spells it out! Like, if you if you can't keep it in your pants, then get married. But otherwise, like, you'll be way more better for the Kingdom. I mean, that's a whole separate thing. But, but I mean, that's intriguing to me. You've got... it seems the majority of the disciples were not married. Peter, we know...
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 12:35
Had a mother-in-law.
Jonathan Puddle 12:35
Had a mother in law, which implies marriage. And I think The Chosen worked with that pretty well. You've got to sing at least one single woman who seems to hang around with them, let alone what you choose to do with Mary, the mother of Jesus who obviously is widowed at some point, and seems to hang around with Jesus's ministry. Okay, so why is it what do you think it is? What Why do you think like... Because Because the first thought that comes to my mind is if I'm thinking about men. I, I would rather that the men teaching me the men teaching anybody, are married. And I'm already asking myself, why is that? And I think it's because I'm not sure that I trust unmarried men to be doing the work... of life getting over themselves.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 13:39
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 13:40
So okay, that's, that's, let's say that that's one thing.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 13:43
Okay. Writing this down and doing the work, okay, doing the work.
Jonathan Puddle 13:49
And you can do the work unmarried.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 13:51
100%.
Jonathan Puddle 13:52
I know so many people doing the work. That is to say, I know many women, single women doing the work. And I know *some* some men doing the work.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 14:04
I appreciate the honesty. And so then here's my question, right? So how much of it is are we socialized to want a married person teaching us? Also, um, I just lost my thought. Sorry, guys. You know what, it doesn't need to happen. Okay. So are we socialized to want a married person? You know, teaching, isn't it? And I do hear you on that you know, they're doing the work. You and I have had these conversations of... I love youth pastors, I have so much respect for youth pastors and our youth pastor. I have called into question sometimes different youth pastors, because I'm like, often they're very young. One gender, one ethnic, like ethnic group and life experience. And often because of the life stage they're teaching about sex and purity and all of that fun stuff. And like, what I struggle with is you're teaching something that you actually haven't had to live out yet, you're teaching a sexual ethic, with no redemption. Like you haven't seen the hard things in life yet. Not for everybody, but for some people. That's been my experience, right? And so it just feels very black and white. Even you talk about Katie, talking about how she gravitates the widows. I'm like, I get that, because they've seen that
Jonathan Puddle 15:14
Sorry that wasn't Katie, that was a client of mine. But go on.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 15:17
Sorry, yes. My doorbell was ringing, sorry. Ahh, gravitating towards the widows, because that makes sense to me. They've had to walk through hard things in life. And I think when you've walked through the hard things, you're it shifts your theology a little bit. I think you walk into a different depth with Jesus not to undermine people who have not had to struggle to certain degrees. So I think there is that part where I do want someone who's had to walk the hard things out, I think, my faith, Marc's faith is different because of our marriage. Because of the hard things that we've had to figure out together, whether it be like sex, or marriage, or kids or money.
Jonathan Puddle 15:58
Loss.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 15:59
Loss! So much loss, right. So all of that. So for sure, I love that. That we want someone who has had to walk that out. But I also do, like on the flip side of this, and maybe I'm just really pessimistic and I'm like, okay, the world is horrible. And so are we just socialized that we want someone who's married because we think that if you're a man who's married, and that means you're somehow loyal, you're somehow, like of value someone wants you, oh, if you're in a Christian marriage, then you're like a leader, because you know, we want a man who's leading. And if you're a woman, you're in a Christian marriage, so then you're, you're submissive, you have someone who's like taking care of you. And even like, how many churches they only have women who preach if their husbands there with them, right? So I think there is also this weird dynamic, where I don't want to throw everything under power and control. But is it part of like this patriarchal system we live in? Where we've idolized marriage, because it's...
Jonathan Puddle 16:56
absolutely
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 16:57
...a framework of control in our culture.
Jonathan Puddle 17:01
I mean, yeah, that's, I think that's an insightful thought, even if even Okay, if that's true, if you're like, "Oh my gosh, she sees control everywhere." Even if even if we leave control for a moment, I've already made the assumption that because someone's married, they are doing the work. Right. Like I just said, I just implied that. And, but we know plenty of marriages where there's no work being done. So. So that's already a false premise. That just because you're married, you are learning to move in others-centered, sacrificial love, would that were the case for every marriage. But we know it's not. You know, we've, we've witnessed here in Canada with The Meeting House. You know, a guy who seemed to be a great husband and father and leader prove to have also been doing terrible things. And so Okay, marriage alone, is clearly not enough to secure what I want in the life of people who teach me.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 18:14
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 18:16
Catholic priests, of course, don't marry. And I've met many lovely, wonderful, mature and wise Catholic priests.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 18:26
Yeah
Jonathan Puddle 18:26
Who I would happily teach me. So that's interesting. I've, I'm trying to think through okay, obviously, I'm just talking about men here. I'm trying to think about some single women. I know a number of wonderful, wise, learned, kind, single women.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 18:55
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 18:56
Who I would, who I learn from all the time, who are my friends who call me to a higher standard. Who, who equip me and push me towards Jesus. I think she Katie identifies in the book that that, you know, some of these women don't put themselves forward.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 19:18
Hmm.
Jonathan Puddle 19:18
Partly because there's a cultural thing that sort of is like, well, it's very normal for men to put themselves forward in general, right? Like, if you walk into a room and a bunch of men are like, "Yes, I'll be in charge here." Nobody thinks that's weird. If a woman's like, Oh, sure. I'll lead that I'll lead this discussion. Everyone's kind of like...
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 19:37
She's bossy. Maybe there's a Jezebel spirit...
Jonathan Puddle 19:41
For sure there's a Jezebel spirit.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 19:44
She's a little too much.
Jonathan Puddle 19:46
She's a little too much.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 19:48
No, 100%. Like we talked about this all the time, right? Like, how often will a man apply for a job, even though they have maybe half the credentials necessary for it, and a woman who is overqualified for a job will not because there is just... we've bred a culture of insecurity where you're not supposed to be too much and assert yourself too much. So, yeah, I'm sorry.
Jonathan Puddle 20:10
Did you read the story in the book about one of her, one of the interviewees who gets fired for her from her job?
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 20:19
Oh, my goodness, and they give it to a male.
Jonathan Puddle 20:21
And then they they create a new job.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 20:23
Yeah
Jonathan Puddle 20:23
Three months later, that's the exact same job and hire this other guy who's supposedly more qualified for the job than the person who's already been doing it for 10 years.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 20:33
For 10 years, and then have her sign an NDA.
Jonathan Puddle 20:36
That's right.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 20:37
Which can we just talk about like NDA culture in the church? That's a whole other... Sorry, we won't go there.
Jonathan Puddle 20:44
You know, that story pissed me off so much.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 20:46
Tell me.
Jonathan Puddle 20:47
Because I have witnessed that from the HR and employer side. And it felt this is wrong. Yeah, this is wrong. We just need to if we if if, okay, look, if we don't like this person, if, if this person is rubbing us the wrong way? We need to figure that problem out and not beat around the bush, like some kind of scaredy-mans who can't have a robust conversation...
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 21:13
Scaredy mans!
Jonathan Puddle 21:14
with a woman that we're scared of. Like, and I've been guilty of this for my own part.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 21:20
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 21:21
When I was a director, having a number of women who were older than me, who were strong personalities, and I was intimidated by them, which is not because they were quote, unquote, intimidating woman. It's because I was immature! And I remember watching situations where I'm like, oh, we need to get rid of this woman, like I, whatever. And in some cases, okay, let's say from the outset, I really don't like firing. And I want to be the kind of person that doesn't play that game. And is, is deeply invested in the people that we have, and let's find the right fit for them.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 21:57
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 21:59
But if that's not where you're at, or that's no longer possible, for any number of reasons, which we don't need to discuss, if you're going to fire someone, just have the balls to fire them.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 22:12
Or the ovaries, but 100%.
Jonathan Puddle 22:13
Or the ovaries. Just have the spherical reproductive organs to or have no reproductive organs. Okay, no more metaphors: just to be brave and courageous and fire them. And if you need to pay them out, because they've been with you for 10 years, then...
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 22:30
honor that!
Jonathan Puddle 22:31
pay them out, be generous, don't do some HR legal bullshit, where you skirt around the issue, and create Oh, you're no... you're redundant now, because we've made a change in the department.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 22:44
Be honest.
Jonathan Puddle 22:44
And I've done and I've had the HR people say to me, Well, this is the way that we need to do it, Jonathan. And I'm kind of like, okay, you're the HR experts in the church, I assume you're people of faith and integrity.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 22:57
Well, okay, so this is a whole thing, right? Clarity is kindness sometimes. And just be clear, just be honest. And I struggle so much I understand that churches have become a business in so many ways and a brand. But there has become a culture of protecting this business and protecting the brand, and then treating it like that. Which it's not it's a community of people. So yes, there is money involved. Yes, there's like HR and all of the things but if you can't be honest with people, if you can't tell them the truth, if you're going to do some back ended way to get rid of them, like what makes us like, what is the point of this? I just, Katie talked about this... well, you and I talked about this too, but just how there's so much litigation now in the church world, and then nothing ever comes forward. Because everything's just everyone's like, Oh, I can't actually say anything cuz I don't want to be sued. Or oh, if you say anything, I'm gonna sue you. And I'm like, so where's the truth? What happened to the truth will set you free? What happened to actually being honest about what is going on, because you know what? Sometimes firing someone is the best gift you can give them. Sometimes they're not a good fit there. And they're not living out their calling, and neither of you are in a good space. So that's actually an incredible gift but not having the... what were we saying? Balls, ovaries to actually do it? Actually.
Jonathan Puddle 24:15
Courage... we're just using, we're ditching the patriarchal metaphors.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 24:21
Thank you. The courage to actually stand in your integrity is actually holding everybody back.
Jonathan Puddle 24:28
Yes, yes. Yeah.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 24:30
And I'm just tired of the game. I'm tired of the politics with it.
Jonathan Puddle 24:35
Yeah.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 24:36
I don't know.
Jonathan Puddle 24:37
So Katie, off air. I don't think this is oversharing. But off air before we began, Katie explained that she had had major legal pushback from two churches that are profiled in this book. And so they used pseudonyms for churches. pseudonyms for the individuals to protect their own privacy and to protect them, those people from repercussions from these churches. And I'm not 100% sure who these churches are. But I am confident and I'm confident enough that I felt very sad. Very sad, disappointed. Not strictly surprised, but disappointed.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 25:31
Well, when did the mission of churches become more important, like the process become more important than people? Right? Because in some ways, if we're like, gut level honest, I can understand why a church would not want litigation against it, it prevents the ministry they're doing and you know, the people whose lives are being transformed or the community, their community, they're finding and all the things. So I can I can respect being like, okay, we need to protect the institution. However, is Jesus not about leaving the 99 for the one? Is Jesus not about like, be putting things into the into the light and out of the darkness? Like I just we talked about this. There's another like massive organization where someone came forward with sexual allegations around against the the person at the top, and they were told, "Well, don't bring the allegations forward, because it will stop the like the moving forward of the Gospel", the mission of this ministry, think of all the people...
Jonathan Puddle 26:27
somehow be harmed by *your* exposure. Not not the evil that that person was doing. That doesn't harm the kingdom, somehow. I'm being facetious, people.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 26:40
But this is like, this is what it's come down to. Okay. So we're going back to wanting to be so I'm gonna circle back for a second, we were talking about wanting to listen to preachers who were men who are married, right, because the association is they're doing the work. But also there's this ideology of what we've allowed in the church is to have so many of our leaders, specifically men, and, and women, too, who have been given like carte blanche authority. So it's like, okay, anything for the mission. And like we talk, we listened to The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll's big thing is behind the Mars Hill bus, like church, behind the bus is a pile of bodies. But how many churches actually do that? And don't just say it out loud. Mark just said about Mark Driscoll said it out loud. But it's true. We so we say anything in the name of the gospel, anything for the mission? And then so what we're gonna threaten to sue you if you out any of what we're doing, to actually harm people and not a Jesus way.
Jonathan Puddle 27:36
It's ass-backwards.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 27:37
That's exactly it.
Jonathan Puddle 27:40
Like Jesus. I'm just thinking, you know, protect the institution. Okay, so in column A, you have protect the institution. in column B, you have Jesus say, tear down this temple and I'll rebuild it in 3 days. Like, and everyone's offended. Everyone's offended with Jesus because they, you know, or Okay, what else? Jesus says to the woman at the well, right, like, I've got better water. And she's like, Are you better than our forefather, Abraham or Isaac? I forget who Jacob Jacob's well. Like, you know, who put this well here, like he's the person that we respect. Right? So So then yeah, you're gonna have another set up of columns. Like don't don't disrespect the elder. And then in Jesus's column, I've got better water than Jacob ever had. Yeah, it's it's immensely frustrating. And, and I honestly, like you said, when we started, you said, you're kind of in a mood right now to just burn this whole thing down. And I'm like, yeah, like, but that but I think that's righteous. I think that's I think that's exactly the mood the Holy Spirit is in. I think that's the mood the Holy Spirit's been in, particularly, for the last 30 years. It's just, we're only just seeing the real kind of breaking out of it here and now.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 29:06
It's felt like that, right? It just feels like every conversation I have lately, are people, not just single woman, people who are tremendously hurt by the church, like irrevocably hurt. And then so my question is, we are at like, we are leaving a pile of bodies behind our churches right now. So what are we doing about that?
Jonathan Puddle 29:29
Yeah.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 29:29
Because it doesn't feel like even I look at Katie Gaddini's work and it's beautiful. And then she says, like, in bold letters. She's like, Well, why aren't things changing? And so then that's my question. Why do we see the facts? We see the research. We see, like psychologists are talking about the level of trauma that evangelicals walk in. And yet we're not changing, if anything we're doubling down.
Jonathan Puddle 29:51
I think I think, I think as the institution it is doubling down, yes. I don't think we're doubling down. I think I think probably the... I read that. And that felt very real to me. Like where she says, Okay, we've had this conference, we've had this event, everyone was excited. Everybody said, look, the Spirit's doing a new thing. Everything's like, "Well, it's a start." And we have had all of these kinds of things happening for so long. And why isn't anything changing? And I was like, Oh, I feel that. But I think I think things *are* changing. And I think there's two major things lept out to me in my mind...
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 30:30
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 30:30
that are changing. One: our children are changing.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 30:35
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 30:35
Our children are going to grow up and already are with a very, very different baseline. And it's a real shame that it takes 20 to 40 years for that balance of gravity to shift, by which time they'll be identifying all of our problems that we haven't done proper business with. And we'll be the you know, the before a long it's gonna be like, "Okay, millennial. Okay, millennial, you go over there with your... and your Facebook addiction."
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 31:07
Yeah, our side parts, our skinny jeans, I think we're already getting called out on a lot of our tomfoolery.
Jonathan Puddle 31:12
It's true. Wow, your waist is not high enough. I can see your hips. That's gross. Go back to the 90s. Early 2000s, rather, so Okay, I think our children are changing, and our children are being set up better than we are. And I want to say that I think that is happening. And I think that is great. Two: I think I think things are changing because people are ditching the institution. I don't think the institution's changing, by and large.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 31:42
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 31:43
From what I can tell, churches that are genuinely becoming safe places, for people of all walks of life, to turn up and be pointed to Jesus are excruciatingly rare.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 32:00
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 32:01
Right. Like, I mean, we've bumped into this with with Bridget Eileen Rivera, right in terms of gay people finding churches, okay, well, they can find churches, but churches that preach the gospel? Churches that are willing to believe in the Resurrection. You know, even just just in my, in my Instagram, like, every week, people are saying, oh, where's your church? And they're like, ah, yeah, we're also in southern Ontario. And there's nothing, nothing that we that we can, in good conscience bring our children to, or our teenagers to, or even can stomach ourselves. And I debated whether to share this during the interview. I didn't, because I thought I'll save it for here. I just gotta be careful, because I don't want to out these people. But we recently had dinner with some folks who are not Millennials, are older, have planted churches, have been involved in the work of the ministry their entire life, are the most legit solid, salt and light kind of people. And they came around, in essence, to ask me, "Should we leave our church? We think we are done." And the husband was kind of like, Yeah, I'm already done. I'm not asking the question. And the wife was kind of like, I'm just, you know, I'm a bit nervous, or I know, I know, there's going to be loss in leaving. But they're like, "We don't have any friends. We've been there nine years." And these are these are outgoing, engaging people.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 33:54
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 33:55
Like I, I was shocked and not shocked. Like I was again, I was I think, again, it's just like, I was grieved, and so disappointed. And I said to them, I said, because you know, and they just kind of unburden themselves of all the pain and all the confusion and all the frustration and there's doctrinal, some doctrinal stuff, some teaching stuff, also, the fact of like, you know, these pastors, they said, we that we actually really love our pastors. But it doesn't seem almost anybody in this congregation has caught the value of these pastors. Which, which does reflect on the pastors, it also reflects on the people, reflects on the whole culture, reflects on this whole ocean and reflects on the fact of who has left this church and who has remained and who has not got eyes to see what is happening right now. And I just said to this couple, I'm so sorry. That is such a shame, but it's not your shame.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 34:49
So good.
Jonathan Puddle 34:50
And I watched kind of their shoulders come down a little bit and I thought to myself, Man, Jesus, what on earth is going on? And I know what's going on? I'm not actually it's a rhetorical question. I'm just like, gaaahhh!
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 35:08
It's interesting as you talk, because I feel so heartbroken. And I know we've just spent the last like, 30-40 minutes complaining. Not complaining, but you know, venting and processing our grief and anger at like the large C church, and the way people are so hurt. But as I listened to you, and I feel the grief, there's all that I'm so saddened and devastated, because there's also so much love. And I hate... like, I don't know what to do with that! And that I think that's the hard like, the hard and beautiful part, of... It is absolutely heartbreaking and devastating how people are being treated in so many of our churches, how people are leaving brokenhearted and yet okay, so you are right, like there is change beginning to happen. And there is healing being found. And I guess that's what... like people are finding Jesus. They're finding life and they're finding love and so...
Jonathan Puddle 36:11
Right. And they're finding community and relationship. Okay, I just read a book last week, beautiful book. I don't know if you've heard of it, yet came out last year by Lynda MacGibbon, who's with InterVarsity in Toronto. And it's called My Vertical Neighborhood. And it's basically like she leaves Moncton and moves to Toronto and lives in a condo on like, the 15th storey and builds a community of friends over a period of years. Basically, by opening up the door and putting a sign on, like in the message board downstairs saying, "Free dinner, Monday nights, my suite." And that grows and eventually move becomes they start a writers group, and then eventually a Bible study. And it's just lived reality, and dignity, and hope and life and love. And yeah. Katie, so that's, that's My Vertical Neighborhood by Lynda MacGibbon. But I wanted to also read this. This is from very early in the book Katie's book. And I read it for two reasons. One, it is beautiful prose, and two, it... I think it's a it's a beautiful ode to what we want in, in community. She's talking with her friend Madison. "I copy Mattie's position, and recline my head on my own armrest and close my eyes. With the wine, softening my defenses, I let myself remember what it was like to belong to the evangelical community, allowing the sweetness of belonging to lap like frothy surf around the edges of my body."
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 38:17
It's beautiful.
Jonathan Puddle 38:19
Do you not long to be held by frothy surf? I know I do.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 38:29
I really do. Yeah. Tim Hortons has a new cold brew, that's really frothy, they make oat milk, and it just makes my heart so happy. Which I know sounds like a tangent but actually, like, you're right. I think that like when you have beautiful community, and people who love you, and who see you, that's what it feels like. Right. Okay, my like, last thought, I feel like we've talked a lot in the past about the future of the church and revival and all that stuff. And that's the big word, right? And people have been like, I feel like revivals coming to the streets. But I actually do believe that I believe that like Holy Spirit is doing a work, not just in churches, so to say, with the fact that you have people leaving, and actually think that's so powerful and healthy because the courage it takes to leave that frothy surf of comfort, like to leave the womb, to like to exit and be okay, so I'm going to step out into the unknown, to the scary because I'm actually going to fight for my healing and fight for my own mental well-being... like that, to me is courage and that to me, that's revival.
Jonathan Puddle 39:42
Can you imagine anything better for the world than like, hundreds, millions of people suddenly being like, "Hmm, dignity and worth and courage. Let's go."
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 39:55
Totally... because if you see it in yourself, you see it in others. You can't love others if you can't love yourself?
Jonathan Puddle 40:01
Right.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 40:03
I'm not. I'm not saying go leave a church. I'm just saying,
Jonathan Puddle 40:10
I'm saying to some of you, you need to leave your to go leave the church.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 40:15
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 40:17
And maybe some of you need to reach out to that person that you've been not reaching out to. And stop being such a lone wolf. And I know there's reasons why you felt it was safer to be a lone wolf. And I respect those reasons. But it's not sustainable.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 40:40
Oh, that feels like a word.
Jonathan Puddle 40:44
I think I'm gonna write a little booklet, in all seriousness, called "How to leave / find the church." And just like, I don't know, put some thoughts out there.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 40:57
Do it. I love it. I enjoy listening to your thoughts. But no, that just spoke to me. Because I'm not leaving my church. But I mean, I'm married to a pastor. And I'm really good at all of my friendships being outside of the church, because it's terrifying inside the church, for me, with my experiences. And maybe there is... so anyways, that just felt like a word, like, okay. There's courage that I need to take.
Jonathan Puddle 41:29
I think that's so good. Like, I think there's a few good words in there that like: courage, dignity, respect, freedom. You know, don't leave a church because you don't agree with everybody.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 41:49
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 41:51
You're just gonna find, you can go and find people that you seem to agree with more. And you might be like, Oh, great, I found my people... give it six months,
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 41:59
That's exactly it.
Jonathan Puddle 42:00
Give it six months, you'll find something that some thing to disagree over. One of my best friends I discovered, doesn't like the new Star Trek shows that I particularly like, and I was like, Whoa, I have to rethink everything.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 42:15
That a deal breaker...
Jonathan Puddle 42:16
You will find deal breakers that were not deal breakers until you need them to be. And then you can be outsies again. So don't leave church for that reason. I mean, our church is, I mean, I keep saying on air, you know, oh, the frustrating people left our church and now it's great. But the fact is, it's still a mess. Because humans are a mess. We do not all agree, we are not all on the same page. We are a broad broad spectrum of perspectives and cultures and styles. But we are more interested in loving each other than in being right about everything. I think. I think. Which brings me back to the wonderful Eugene Peterson, who taught that Jesus had two categories. Jesus's two categories were those who think they're right. And the hurting. Those are the two categories that Jesus those were... seemed to be his binaries: the hurting, versus those who think they are right. So the invitation is to admit that we're all hurting and just drop the rightness.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 43:26
Yeah. Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 43:30
You want to land this plane, my friend or are we done here?
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 43:36
I feel like you just spoke into my sermon for Sunday. So I'm like writing notes down. Oh, no, I love that I. And I think the truth is, if we are courageous enough, and giving ourselves the own dignity... like, the right, like we're if we're choosing to treat ourselves with dignity and look at others with dignity, looking at ourselves, like the image bearers of Christ in others in the same way, then I think we have to be honest that so many of us are hurting. Our traumas may look different. But we're all coming from a space of pain to some degree. And so it's going to get messy.
Jonathan Puddle 44:17
Yeah.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 44:18
But there is freedom. And there is beauty and there is healing and there's walking it all out. But not but... there is! There is. Like you and I started our conversation an hour ago with this off air where we're just like, it sucks because the walking out of freedom and of healing is really hard. And sometimes there are lives and decisions that are just really shitty.
Jonathan Puddle 44:37
Yeah.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 44:38
But there's also no other way. I'd want to be doing it. Not with Jesus. Yeah. So here we are. Okay, here we are. Here we are. That was that conversation went in a lot of different directions. But hopefully some of it spoke to you. Hopefully there's stuff that resonates. And hopefully you are in a space where you know your worth and your dignity.