#127-B: Discussing Bridget Eileen Rivera on what gay Christians experience in church

BONUS EPISODE! I’m away on vacation so instead of a fresh interview, Tryphena and I decided to share our B-Side from episode 127 (back in the days of episode 127 the B-Sides were exclusive to patrons only). Tryphena echoed the question of many listeners by asking why—after 3 years—I decided to publicly engage the topic of LGBTQ+ faith when I have been mostly silent on it. You’ll hear lots of my own story with my dad, and we talked about Bridget’s amazing poise and grace in carrying this heavy burden, for all our benefit. And more!

For maximum impact, make sure you listen to our source episode, #127: What gay Christians experience in church (with Bridget Eileen Rivera).

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Transcription

Jonathan Puddle 

Hello friends and welcome back to The Puddcast. This is a special bonus episode. Why a bonus episode because I'm on holiday. My wife and I managed to escape. And as you listen to this, if you're listening to it, you know, within a few weeks of it being released, I will be lying on a beach we will be lying on a beach or I suppose, holed up in a forest in Finland. So we are just taking a little break a year of foster care and my wife turning 40 provided the excuse for us to get away. Many thanks to you all for giving me permission if you are the first kind of person who gave me permission to take a break. Thank you. And if you're not too bad, so Tryphena and I agreed to do for this episode was to release the B-side for the Bridgette Eileen Rivera interview. You may recall if you're a regular listener, that the B-sides are now available for every new episode going forward, they're going to be on the main feed. So the first was our interview with Kevin Sweeney about mystechs, mushrooms, and the power of letting go. That was episode 128. Then episode 128 B came out that was the most recent episode on the feed where Tryphena and I unpacked that conversation and went into greater depth. And so this would normally be scheduled to be an interview. But again, because I'm away we decided you know what we're gonna do we're gonna make the B-side for the prior prior interview with Bridget Eileen Rivera all about the heavy burdens that LGBTQ folks are forced to carry as they try to engage with church life. So this is that b-side some of you asked for it, and I'm pleased and honored to offer it. Have a listen, see if the stirs hopeful things in you and drop us a line. 

So we, there was a little delay here, but I recorded this interview with Bridget Eileen Rivera… that itself was delayed, I got COVID, there was a whole thing. Anyway.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

This is life right now. Everything is delayed.

Jonathan Puddle

But people have been asking, my friend. People have been asking. People have been saying you better be doing a B-Side, for THAT interview. Because I want to hear the behind the scenes story. Which I think, boils down to: We notice that you have not discussed LGBTQ matters publicly on your podcast in 3 years, while everybody else has. Why now?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon

Well, this is my question. So, one, the interview is phenomenal. Like, I love her, and her heart. And just, like she’s someone I can just listen to so easily. Ummm, but two, I was listening and I like, Jonathan hasn’t gone here yet. And then, you open with talking about your Dad. Which I was like, you haven’t really done that publicly. So how did that, what brought along that journey for you, how did that feel for you to go there?

Jonathan Puddle

Yeah, it was … you know, it was good, it was really kind of a relief. It’s been, it’s been a journey for so many different reasons, right? Like, my father came out when I was 18. And, I mean I was just becoming an adult. And then my parents separated, like immediately. And then I got married a year and a half later. And so, moving out of… I didn’t even get to move out of my parents’ house, cause suddenly I had to… what I didn’t have to, but suddenly it was my mothers’, my single mother’s house that I was moving out of. Which I was still wrapping my head around. Plus I’m an independently minded eldest born, who has already sort of got his sights on the horizon. There's a lot of layers to that, as you can imagine, and anyone who's you know, listening with separated or divorced parents, you know, I'm still unpacking baggage, just from the fact that my parents are divorced. And I find especially on Christmas and Easter, I long for a home and a hearth that does not exist in this world anymore. And that upsets me. So there's a lot of layers to that. But you know what, it was really interesting. Again, okay, I love I love Bridget, I love where she's coming from. I've been reading her blog for a few years, and I was so, I think I was so captivated by her gentleness to people that are struggling. Her strength and tenacity to those who are not struggling, but would judge others. Her her informed-ness, like she's a sociologist and is trained and his training and brings all this wealth of knowledge and research to the table. And her own like really humble and kind of unique, not unique, but you know, rare voice within this space where she is. Feels very, very much for the Spirit to live a celibate life. But does but it categorically does not put that on anybody, but encourages everybody to listen to the Spirit. Yeah, and to search scripture. And to be true to what they feel God is doing in them in their life and community and all of that. And I think even when I first heard she had a book coming out, I DMed her on Twitter. And I said, I knew right away I'm like, this is the person I want to have this conversation with publicly. So that was in my head probably about a year and a half ago. Okay, that took a while, you know, book publishing process is slow, but I could go back through my DMs because I swear it was over well over a year ago that that she had announced that her book was coming out heavy burdens. And I was like even just from the title and from the get go, I was like, this is the conversation I want to have. And so then, you know, the slow wheels of the publishing process turn and then eventually we we made it happen. But then that conversation with Jerry, my father's partner happened after I had already decided I wanted to interview Bridget and then it was the so it was a few months after that right that Jerry and I were on the beach and and like driving home from that trip. For hours like right A trip with the family Maija and I were talking about, about this I read, retold the conversation. And she, you know, I mean, you know this with Maija and I don't know, with listeners if you have any Enneagram eights in your life. But eights have this soft spot for victims of injustice. And if you get an eight to talk about Indigenous children being taken from their homes, or any given topic that where there is a core injustice, child marriage, human trafficking, you will undoubtedly find a space where suddenly this hard, strong, eight is broken, and tears come. At least that's my experience with my wife.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

Like that, like encompasses Maija in like a sentence, it's like yeah, the strength but the empathy.

Jonathan Puddle 

And then yeah, and the Enneagram was, teaches that, and that eights experienced injustice in a core wounding way themselves in their childhood in their formative years. And so as a result, they had to grow up and become the adult and the protector. But they are now highly motivated towards especially children experiencing injustice. And that's a beautiful gift. So praise God for eights, and let's shift some of that narrative that eights are all bossy bitches, because it's not true.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

not at all.

Jonathan Puddle 

 So anyway,

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

back to the car ride,

Jonathan Puddle 

because that was to say, Thank you that was saying the car ride. I retold this conversation about about faithful Jesus loving gay people who, and even even to say that is to say, people who have wrestled and submitted their sexuality to God for decades for decades, man, like, how many? How many years? Have you spent submitting your sexuality to God? That's not That's not to touch on trauma. But just in terms of your orientation.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

Like zero,

Jonathan Puddle 

yeah, zero.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

 Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle 

Brian,

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

sorry, go on

Jonathan Puddle 

2qno and so, so to say, you know, these are people who, who by and large, have spent great effort prevailing before the Lord kicked out of churches, and not just kicked out of churches, but even actually, us having this conversation with my mother, recently. And she said, the very first first time that she met a person who said that they were gay and a Christian was might have even been the first person she met who was gay, as like an 18 year old. She was sitting in some Cafe, and this guy overheard a conversation she was having with her girlfriend. And basically, he just opened up and told her this story, how he had been, he came out to his church, somewhere in Australia, and they kicked him out of the church. And then he moved to New Zealand to try and escape and start a new life. And they came and found him and found his church and outed him to the eldership of the church that he was now at. And this kind of story is common. The number of people Tryphena that have DMed me in wants to that podcast. People who people who I guess are in spaces where they where this conversation is not happening. And some of them have had been like, I'm trying to write to you right now. And I'm, and I'm gasping for breath. I've never been able to write with anybody about this. But this is how I was hunted. For the first church that I came out to, this is how I was pursued by these people who felt it was their duty to protect somehow, you know, misguided fashion

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

Oh, like sorry totally like a digression but when you use the word pursue like I associate like I want to be pursued by love I want like my partner to pursue me I We believe we're being pursued by like the love of God constantly. So we talk about pursuit, but you're hunting somebody down, like when do you know Jesus to hunt somebody down? Like how does that even fit it? Like how does that become our framework?

Jonathan Puddle 

Right?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

I don't know

Jonathan Puddle 

and that like, and then and then that that Hunter claims the the humble, faithful gay person is the wolf in sheep's clothing. When you are literally hunting the flock. And consuming them And, and destroying their life. So there's a lot in there, right? Theres a lot in me. So when when Jerry said we can't find faith, we can't find churches, we can't find churches that teach the gospel. We can't find churches that teach the gospel and make room for this journey. And you know, and what, what Bridgette said, like, you know, we're not even talking about like much theology, we're saying, like, Do you believe in Jesus Christ, you preach Christ and Christ crucified. There's a whole lot of room for discussion on everything else. But the fact that they that people are often struggling to even find a group that will say, Yeah, Jesus, the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE, let's figure out the details, but like, Jesus is the Son of God. And, and like, let's hold like the Nicene Creed, or the apostles creed, or anything, you know, like, so yeah, that that really set me off. And I think that was like, enough. I'm mad. This is wrong. This is unjust. It's time. And then, honestly, the, that I think I was already prepared to do the thing. But what really set me off and pushed me over beyond beyond that was in the introduction, when she shares the suicide rate. And yeah, when basically, it is, you can, it is beyond is beyond like discussion, or analysis, like, the sheer fact is that people are more likely, straight people. When straight people engage with faith communities, their risk of suicide decreases. Yeah, that's good news. Church, and faith, spirituality are a life giving factor. For most people, straight people, hurray. for LGBTQ folks. It is the opposite. The rate of suicide measurably and, and dramatically increases, the more that they increase their engagement with faith communities. And that I just like, even just against to say that makes me just want to like, like flip tables in the temple man, like, the rage and the evil of that is really what what pushed me to be like, Okay, enough, enough of not talking about this, enough of trying. The thing is Tryphena, that, that so many of my and I didn't even think realize this until I did this episode, and people and people wrote to me, like, out of the woodwork, I've probably had more private engagement on this subject in almost anything I've done, except some of the trauma stuff. A lot of my listeners operate in much more conservative spaces. And I operate, as you know, and we you know, we both do to different degrees, we operate in a variety of spaces. You know, what that's like. And so, you know, trying, in a sense to be all things to all people to be sensitive to the audience to serve the the listener, whoever that is, well, right, like, that's my local church congregation, and they're in their immediate discipleship needs. That's the listeners to my podcasts, which are hugely broad and varied. That's our children. That's all these different groups. And a lot of the folks I've learned who listened to the podcast are in more conservative spaces. And so they are often looking for encouragement, and hope, and tools and tactics and strategies of how to operate in those spaces with integrity, while also hopefully being forces of change in their local groups. So I pasture within a denomination that does not believe there is a conversation to be had on this subject. I believe Scripture clearly condemns it. And that the it's being homosexual attraction, and that God created them male and female. So there's no conversation that we had around transgenderism, or even just queerness. And they wouldn't probably even acknowledge the reality of asexuality. Because, again, we're all just essentially sex craved evangelicals at the base of theology here. And,

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

yeah,

Jonathan Puddle 

so all that's going on, pastor in this space, now, my particular church, all the churches within our movement are autonomous. So we have a degree of freedom of how we, how we deal with certain things. And as a community, we reflect a broad range of viewpoints. I also have a gay dad. And so that's the that's actually the first and most important thing to me. And, and that's real Why I haven't talked about it. It's not really because of, it's not really because of fear of church or just or any of that kind of stuff or, or saying the wrong thing to, to any like stakeholders as such as it's like, my own father is one of the most important relationships in my life. And as I've shared a little bit on the show, and I shared more on Sarah Westfall, it's not my story podcast. My relationship with my dad was really broken for a long time. And God like miraculously, over a period of years, restored that relationship to the point where like my dad, and like, we were just chatting on the phone this morning, he lives like in New Brunswick, we, we have the best relationship we've ever had.  And so nothing is worth risking that. And so that just gave me pause to say, Okay, this has got to be done. Well, and loving to all parties. And it wasn't I think, until I read Bridget's book, and went through her approach that I said, Okay, this, to me looks like a path forward that can be loving to all parties.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

I love that.  100%. I love that. And this is like one of the things I've respected about how you've engaged with the conversation. So far, our relationship has always been at the forefront of everything right. And so I don't know, I think it's also incredibly significant that your dad himself went a little bit more public with his story this year, which was just profound and beautiful.

Jonathan Puddle 

That was wild to me. I didn't I knew that was coming. Like, maybe a week before it came. Like I had a little bit of a heads up. But I had no idea of that that would be happening at a broad sense. And I learned so much reading my dad's story. It was aspects of his upbringing. When do you sit down and like, ask your parents for their bio?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

Oh, my goodness, I feel like if I'm with my parents, my kids are present. And then so it's just like, it's not about me anymore. Anyways, that's a digression. Yeah, it was beautiful. You're right. Because when do you get to hear their bio, from start to where they are now?

Jonathan Puddle 

Especially on like, those issues, like painful, like when I was 19? And you know, the first time I contemplated suicide or, or whatever, you know. Yeah, so that was special. That was interesting. That was that, yeah, there was a whole thing on Facebook, where my, where my dad's story was shared. And some well meaning friends, a whole kind of group of well, meaning friends. Some were like shocked and horrified that that some of these things that happened in the church that we all grew up in, they didn't know the way the church had responded to my dad, they didn't, I didn't realize that, that the kind of conversion therapy approach was happening within the church that we all grew up in. Others who had seen, you know, the fallout of my father's coming out as, as pain from my mother and their divorce, felt like, well, this is only part of the story. You know, what church is realistically going to help a man leave his wife and children regardless of whatever the issues are, you know, I mean, as long as it's not like, female on males, spousal abuse. And so there's this whole conversation happening on Twitter that I just like, going on Facebook, rather that I got to sit down and read in third party, and it was so weird. And I thought for a sliver, I'm like, oh, have I done this? To people of color? Have I done this to indigenous people? I've been doing this for years, talking authoritatively, even when trying to come from a place of compassion, and centering myself in a conversation. And that was very, very interesting. To kind of, for the very first time be an observer to a public conversation about me and my family.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

yeah.  Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle 

So I ended up just posting a GIF of popcorn, because

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

I love it. That's your response to this. Okay, but I think that's so interesting, right? Like how we center ourselves in this conversation still, right? Like, it's so myself as like a straight woman, I feel like or even in the church, we're continuing to center ourselves on what I thought was so significant, one of the many things that Bridget talked about when she talked about how so many people who are gay, who are LGBTQ are like, they're seminary scholars in terms of Scripture and what God is saying, and they have spent time discerning with Holy Spirit and like they have really wrestled and grappled with this. And yet, so when you asked her so how do we as the church, just do better, like give us some handholds moving forward, and she's like, Well, I would just like the space for them to be valued, like for their journeys to be valued. And how often are we in churches? having these conversations, and they're not even part of it, right? Like, they don't even have the agency to be at the table. And I'm like, What are we doing, where your voice in your experience is so invalidated, that we can't look at you as the imago dei, is like the representation of God on earth, right? And as like someone who carries the image of Christ in them, and we can't honor that in you, instead, we're going to look at you and we're going to look at you through this like lens of I don't know, I hate that we continue to do this, but like this lens of sin, and that's all we're gonna see in you, which itself is Oh, that's a whole other conversation, the problems there. But I just loved how she continued to talk about honoring the individual. I love

Jonathan Puddle 

Yeah.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle 

Yeah, it's, there's so many yeah, I agree completely. I got a couple of nasty comments, no surprises. And I think it was again, illuminating. It illuminated an issue that exists well beyond this. well beyond the realm of LGBTQ conversation, whenever anybody seems to say something that we disagree with. If you have been raised with a biblical, like, biblical plumb line, let's say, what anybody says is, well, that might be interesting, but I just can't throw out the Bible. And they say that in 101, different ways, often just by quoting, like, quoting a proof text with no context. But it's fascinating to me, that our immediate reaction and I say our because I'm trying to use kind of inclusive language rather than other people. Absolutely. And I have been there myself. It's fascinating to me that our immediate reaction is to assume that the other person doesn't value scripture. Like that's so judgmental. Like thats so judgmental. And I have been guilty of this. I have been guilty of this. I have trained myself now. I mean, I've trained myself now to to ask the question. Hmm, that's interesting. How do you interpret the following passages in light of what you've just shared, I would like to hear your journey. I usually just don't even use that kind of questioning anymore. I've moved into a different space. But that but I feel like that was that was an improvement in my journey. And I have had one or two people who've been like, Okay, I'm interested, but I'm cautious. Can you walk me through this? I haven't had many, I think most people have either been like, this was great. I can sense the compassion and the empathy. You're right, we need to do better. And then a vocal minority, have just attacked and lambasted and basically said, Yeah, well, we can't throw out the Bible. And I'm like, Have you listened to Bridget? Because she, because if there's one thing she's doing that the Bible is not throwing it out. And and again, the same would be applied to most LGBTQ Christians. Because again, if we're talking like, these are not Christians who've who've come out of liberal establishments, to tell us about their hardships.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

No.

Jonathan Puddle 

That is not the case. Right? These are Christians who have been raised in Baptist, Southern Baptist, evangelical Bible, faiths, and expressions of the faith and, and have and have faith. And I've had to wrestle with these things. So yeah, I feel like we've just got to do so much better than even just on the simple fact of like, well, I just can't throw scripture. Okay. Let's do better than that. How do you? What do you do with with passages in Corinthians and Timothy, when Paul seems to condemn homosexuality? What do we do with that, like, wrestle with that? Be honest with that, if that's, if that's your fear, if that's your concern, be honest, and let's see some of the ways that people have wrestled with that. And I've learned things about that. And let's read the scholarship on those passages. Because like, we've had to do this, like, Okay, I know, I'm talking a lot, but this is the thing that I, like, I grew up, as you know, is very much charismatic thing, right? And so one of the really trippy things that happens in the charismatic space is this, like, well, the Spirit told me this. And so that's what I'm going to go and do. And so you have people that have been taught to prophesy are taught to hear God's voice, and they just kind of will run off and To follow the Holy Spirit in weird directions. And then let's say you're coming from a more biblical tradition, I have a lot of Reformed friends who may may or may not be secessionist, but will look at the Holy Spirit crowd and say, That's really troubling. Troubling, that's really problematic. You guys need to remember that the Holy Spirit will never tell us to do something contrary to Scripture. And I would say, yes, I agree. We need scripture.  But scripture includes stories of the Holy Spirit, telling people things contrary to their understanding of Scripture. And that's not me trying to create a weird loophole that's like, early in the, in the spreading of the Gospel, Peter is going to a Greek's House, who according to all of Peter's Jewish upbringing, cannot have the Holy Spirit is the wrong ethnic group cannot be an inheritor of the promise of God. And Peter has a dream, like, falls into a trance, like I would like you to, to like, cite that in a paper, right? Like, oh, the Spirit revealed this to me in a trance, like, Peter falls into a trance, and has a dream, where all this food comes down on a sheet that's unclean, according to Leviticus and Deuteronomy, Deuteronomy. Yeah. Okay. And the voice says, Eat. And Peter says hells to the no, because I'm a good Jewish boy. And I'm not going to eat any of this unclean food, and the voice says, Do not call unclean, what I have made clean. And Peter's like, bwrahh what do or eugh? And he, and he visits Cornelius. And he sees all the fruit of the Spirit active in this man's life. And it fundamentally alters Peters understanding of Scripture. And now his eyes are opened to see things in Scripture that he had not seen before. Peter doesn't throw out and his scripture and cease to be a Messianic Jew. It doesn't. It just opens his eyes to see a grander story and to move beyond certain boundaries and frames of reference that had been given for scripture. You know, and so I mean, I feel like there's an invitation to be honest with those kinds of things.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

I think I think you're totally right. And I think it's interesting to me, how we can do that with every other part of Scripture, right? Like, how often do you sit and listen to a conversation or a sermon that's like, well, when you look in the actual Greek, or when you look in the Hebrew, let's talk about the context, let's talk about the language. But there's certain verses that we've not given that same value to. And like, let's, and so I think we can even look at Jesus right where Jesus says, like you've heard it said, But I say to you, this and like, so Jesus has precedent of reframing things and of allowing Holy Spirit to lead and I think, like, there is value to, like, Holy Spirit's not going to call you in like to go against something in line with the essence of Scripture, right? Like, I'm very careful to be like, Jesus is perfect representation. Got it. So this if this doesn't align with how Jesus's character walked on the earth, and I'm like, I'm hesitant in my own spirit of like, well, like, how does that play out? Right, and I think I can respect wanting to build parameters to for safeguarding, but I think then when we build parameters, we build walls. And so I don't know, I will be fully honest, like to you intellectualist our listeners, like I still wrestle with the walking out of what that looks like, and not just in this area of my life, and so many areas of my life. Like, I think I grew up in purity culture, where it's like, you set the boundary lines so far back so you don't fall off the cliff versus like, Can I trust my, my own journey? And can I trust Holy Spirit that I can go to the cliff and love people? Well, wherever I am, right, I think if that's the essence of how, I don't know, I don't know what I'm saying. Yeah,

Jonathan Puddle 

but I think yeah, I think I think you're onto something really right. Like we have been taught to run away from the cliff.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle 

But the reality is, like if we think of the cliff as like a chasm we're all kinds of people have fallen down and and are begging for help and love and care and healing. And how do we find them unless we're sitting on the edge reaching down and pulling people up?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

Isn't there like, oh, sorry, go on.

Jonathan Puddle 

No, I mean, I recognize even saying that that does have this kind of sound of like this like authoritative like I'm here to heal you.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

Absolutely. It like, and I'm not trying to put like a savior complex. But if Jesus like Jesus left the 99 to get the one, I'm not saying like, this is this I'm digressing here, this is going in the wrong direction, because, but it's just that space of like, if I'm fully honest, like even starting this conversation, and starting my own journey of like, okay, so I'm going to unpack and I'm going to like, actually truly go back and look at what I've learned and distill what truth is in this is terrifying. Because it shattered so much of my foundation I had taught myself I had been like, that was what I had learned to live on the other side of the cliff anyways.

Jonathan Puddle 

Well, that's the thing. And that's, that's what I, again found was so illuminating. And again, not very surprising, when I posted the interview. And I, and I made comments, like, too many churches, families, ministries, whatever, do not believe there's even a conversation to be had on this stuff. And the and many people, the majority of people responded, positively and welcoming to that. But they were examples of people who lashed out. And then again, when we say things like, can we have a conversation about? All they seem to be able to hear is we've decided to, there's a better way to be faithful. And I'm just now telling you authoritatively that you have a problem.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle 

Right. And so when I say let's have a conversation, like, Okay, if I sit down with my wife, and I'm like, Hey, can we have a conversation about something? She's not gonna say, Oh, finally, let's get a divorce. Like, I can't have anything to do with you. Sure, husband, like what is on your heart? Like? Maybe that maybe I feel nervous to hear that, because maybe that implies that we need to do something isn't working well, and we need to do some hard work. Sure, I can have a measure of trepidation about what that conversation means. Please, friends never send me a text and say, can we have a hard conversation about something? Because I will freak out? No, I won't. I'm kidding. Like, that's a fine thing to do. That's a good thing to do. You should do that. But But yeah, it's it's very troubling to me that, that too many people can't even sit down and say, Okay, are you aware that there are people in your church who are unsafe in your presence? Like, I'm aware of people who, who've left our church because of statements made publicly by other leaders in our movement. And they're like, my child is not safe in this church. So and that's devastating.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

Yeah. Okay, so here's like, two, like, sorry, lots of thoughts here, right. One, I like I've experienced different traumas in my life, we all have, and those itself have caused me to like they've caused crises of faith. Right. So the fact to me that already, like, we have an entire group of people who have been, like traumatized and hurt by the church over and over again, who continue to seek Jesus. Right. So going back a little bit talking about, like, not being able to find a theologically safe space to me already. Can we can we just like honor and respect that? Right?

Jonathan Puddle 

Yes.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

Because me as like, a straight woman, I'm so quick, like it's taken work to be like, I am going to be faithful in the hard times, right? Also, here's where here's where I struggle, okay? Because I look at the suicide rates, and I don't even I think it was like 38% increase, right? If you are an LGBTQ individual within a church that your suicide your chances of suicide go up, which is atrocious, so to me, I'm like, this is now a human not now. It always was. This is a human rights issue. However, and so I and I genuinely believe that like, there's a person who like, wants to love people, I've studied sociology, like, this is like, this is a human rights issue. Also, though, I have been on the other side, right, like in the sense of like, I have had to grapple with my faith and Scripture around these conversations. And so then, I have so much grace and empathy for people who are asking the heart who are willing to ask the hard conversations, and are like the No, this is me being faithful. We're like, I just, I can't see scripture in a different light there's a cause anger and pain in me. Absolutely. But I have empathy because I've been there. So then even like, you and I have had these conversations of what does it look like to live in relationship with people who have different values than you? When to me I'm like, it's a human rights issue. Right? So like, even like, as a woman of color, like you come after me or another person of color, or my kids and like, I'm gonna lose it. I do lose it. And I will want to have that same tenacity for every people group? But also like, what does this look like in the church like we and you, and I've talked about this, that there's a church within our area, that I feel like even though their statement of faith has done this really well, where like, we are going to be an umbrella for people with all theological perspectives and values, but we're going to still love people. Well, and that sounds beautiful, but I don't know how that actually plays out. Do you know what I mean?

Jonathan Puddle 

I do know what you mean. Yeah, I asked the same question. Which we, again, we're trying to live with that. And, and say, like, how do we, how do we do this now that you bring brings up all these different difficulties, right, because, because as soon as you say that, to somebody who is less interested in the conversation, they will typically hear what you're saying is, well, love just sounds like some kind of like, squishy. Niceness, right, like love just means like we, you know, oh, you come as you are, and stay as you are. I'm like, if that's the kind of love that your marriage is defined by, I'm troubled about your marriage friend, because like, as far as I've experienced love, it is costly and transformative. So come here, and I will costly love you. And you will be transformed into who knows what. And I will be transformed into who knows what. And hopefully together, we will find a beautiful, painful way forward as costly lovers and God will continue to pour out His love in us and transform us into whatever he wants to transform us into. So first of all, we don't even know what it means to love. Or like, we can't even get on the same page about what love actually is, as a definition. And then how to implement that in practice. I think it's got to be messy.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

So messy.

Jonathan Puddle 

I think it's got to be awkward to a certain degree, right? Like, I mean, I, I hate awkward, I hate conflict. I would much rather build a walled garden of people that I agree with. But I'm trying really, and then but but I recognize for me, that comes from my own sense of value being tied to people agreeing with me. And so when, when we have a range of opinions, Jonathan Puddle gets nervous about whether he is loved. That's me. So okay, so Jonathan can actually see me right now. And I'm literally hiding in my Hiding her face.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

I'm like, I'm like actively working on not disassociating in this conversation, because that's where Tryphena goes, right? I'm like, okay, so this is such a big conversation, and I don't want to mess it up. But also, I don't want people to not like me, which I'm like, I'm actively having this conversation with myself where I'm like, why is this? What it comes down to? Like, this is like me centering myself in this conversation again. And anyways,

Jonathan Puddle 

Someone posted Jonathan Martin, actually, it was Nicole Martin. Not not Martin. Sorry, Nicole Nelson, excuse me. Nicole Nelson, posted this comic and said, John, this is so Jonathan Martin, and I DMed them both. I'm like, yeah, and Jonathan puddle, and clearly Tryphena. And there's these dinosaurs. And one of them says the other one, you know what I say to the haters? And he's like, What do you say? What do you say to the haters? And he said, You know what I say to the haters, I say don't hate me. I'm really nice.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

Oh, okay. So, which is so true, right? If you're actually able to get some to know somebody, there's so much beauty and I think we all often have more commonality than not, but Okay, so I was listening to a story recently, I think it was on another podcast. And they were talking about doing church in situations where you're going to have differing opinions. Okay. So specifically, they were speaking around the race, convert race conversation and heightened racism in the last few years in North America. And so this was specifically after George Floyd's murder and they were in a small group and it was this beautiful small group discussion and for like, an many of the people in the small group were also police officers. And so the small so you had police officers you had people of color you had like just this amazing gamut. And for years they journey together. I apologize for butchering the story because I for years they a journey together and they had prayed for each other. So for these police officers who were on the frontline and were experiencing trauma, they had cared for each other and loved them and prayed upheld them. After George Floyd was murdered. So then a lot of the men of color the men who are black in that group were sharing their experiences and their stories and their true experiences of what had happened with other police officers and law enforcement and So one of the police officers was like, I can't be here anymore and left the small group and left the church and was like, I can't like, be witness to this. And so the pastor called the call this person and was like, no, like, we have sat here and journeyed with you, and your traumas, and you cannot sit and listen to our realities and our traumas. And it's like, okay, so I know this is messy. And I know that it's complicated, and there's no, like, here's a one way we're going to fix it all. But this is the body of Christ. And so if we can't sit actually hear people's truth, truths that may be opposing truths that are actually hurtful to each other, and we can't uphold and love authentically and get to know that there is not going to be any change in how are we any different from the rest of the world. Like what is the point of this, right? And it just stuck with me on one, like the conversation of race, but one on like, the conversation of sexuality and LGBTQA like, plus community and just realizing Okay, so we need to find a way to sorry, you know, what I remember, I was gonna say, we need to find a way to be in the same room together. But I think maybe that is more true for me as a straight woman, then as a person who is gay or queer, because I would also to them then say, like you,

Jonathan Puddle 

I'm so sorry, you haven't? These haven't been safe places for you to be?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

Absolutely. So why should you have to be here and like experience more trauma, but it's time for us as the straight individuals to stand up and be like, No more?

Jonathan Puddle 

Yeah. It's beautifully put. I love that that story is really cool. I don't want to be the pstaure on the phone call, saying, hey, I watch this thing. And you're you're wimping out, son, come back. That to me is the the worst phone call. Because again, of my conflict aversion. And yet, I want I want to be the kind of community that is doing that. I want to be the kind of I want to be the kind of family that is doing that.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle 

Yeah. That's so interesting. I don't know how we get there beyond just like the listening and the compassion and paying attention. You know, like we were talking about with Kevin Sweeney. I'm like, how do we foster this and people? And he's like, Oh, I don't know. Like, I don't know if we even can, like, and, and I don't, I didn't feel like a cop out.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

No, it does.

Jonathan Puddle 

That might sound to some like a cop out. But I feel like anyone who's had boots on the ground posturing for more than six months. So like, you can't and in fact, shouldn't be trying to change people. You can only in the words of Eugene Peterson. Your your one job is to help people bring their focus back on God. That's it.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

I love that.

Jonathan Puddle 

Which I think was really again to Bridget. If John Piper who believes that divorce, remarriage after divorce is adulterous sin, personally believes that if he can say, but I'm going to make room at the table for people who believe differently about marriage and remarriage after divorce, can the whole church not create room to say, Okay, some at this table might believe that any kind of homosexual engagement is sinful. But, but they are also willing to say, we recognize that other people don't agree and are faithful. And I'm not going to make this a dangerous place for you like that. Like, that's the next question. Okay, for John Piper. What is what is his conversations look like? Does he sit there with his friends be like, yeah, but you know, you guys are wrong. Like, that wouldn't be a safe place. Or does he wisely not talk about that? In mixed company? I mean, and that's just Piper and I know, he's obviously a firebrand and all kinds of people who don't like John Piper, I get that. But again, there's something about humility. And oh, yeah, so the, somebody somebody had written to me, and, and basically was like, I'm concerned by this. And so we had a we had some dialogue back and forth. It was very respectful. And I shared with this person, what I will share here with you that one of the things that caused me to reevaluate my historical stance was being in relationship with gay people, having friends who are gay, my father included but not exclusively and watching them pursue God over decades. And seeing all the fruit of the Spirit in their life. And I'm sitting here with a particular way of understanding scripture, and of interpreting certain passages and believing category what which different categories of sin. And I'm also got people that I'm in friendship with close enough to see the fruit in their life, close enough to know their integrity, and close enough to see that I can't discern what I would call sin in their life, beyond the ways that we all fall short of love, like every day. And I'm just like, if I'm meant to discern here, spirit, you're given me nothing. And so should that. Should that be the sole basis of your doctrinal framework? Probably not. But should that inform the way that you love your friends? Those friends? Probably. Yeah. And and maybe there's a cascade effect, as that ripples out and multiplies. I mean, that's, I think that's what happens, right? When we hear someone's story

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

I think,

Jonathan Puddle 

and, and believe it.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

Yeah`. Yeah. Like, if someone is willing to share their story with you, that has taken so much courage that we're going to, like, start with space of I'm going to trust you. We say this all the time. But we're going to start from a space of believing women. And I think the same is true. I think it's so powerful to talk about story, just like a thought that came to mind that I feel compelled to talk with for a sec. And I can only speak from my own existence, right. And I don't know how many times I've said it, but like, as a woman of color, let so part I am very aware that there is a disproportionate amount of individuals in my community, who will struggle with being affirming and being loving. And so when I was teaching in Toronto, I remember like the TDSB had a whole initiative or has had many initiatives around creating space

Jonathan Puddle 

for the Toronto District School Board.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

Sorry, thank you, the Toronto District School Board where I taught so they had an initiative to create safe spaces, and part of it was parent education. And I was working in a school that was predominantly people of color, and children of color and stuff of color. And the staff were like vehemently opposed to that stare, like we cannot indoctrinate children. And in conversation, what kept coming up was well as, as, as people of color who have been traumatized and oppressed for so many years haven't received a place where we are fully accepted, as you know, equals how are we then supposed to go and fight for others, right, and I am like, I'm putting words in their mouths little bit in terms of like, I'm just bottom lining, like a much bigger conversation. And I couldn't have come to a place where I had empathy and Grace if I hadn't listened to their story of why they were so opposed right in the heart and the pain and their own traumas that they had to unpack before they were able to go and do likewise for someone else. And I think that's so like, even when I was listening to Bridgette talk about her pain of wondering if she was a vessel of wrath, because that's all that she had talked like been taught. That's a significant trauma. I mean, like, as a young child, to understand that, if you are gay, it's God using you as a vessel rather than me like

Jonathan Puddle 

God created you created

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

You, yeah,

Jonathan Puddle 

To destroy you. And thereby demonstrate His glory. That's, that's vile.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

It is, but we get we get taught this all the time, right? Like God is going to use your pain. And it just to me, it breaks down like the image or like just the understanding of what I have as a parent and who I understand like, the parent heart of God to be but that's a whole other conversation. But I think that's a trauma that's an attachment wound in your own spirit. And so if you have that and you're not able to unpack that how are you then able to even go forward and redefine your understanding of love are all of our like the conversations like I think so much of you being able to listen to your friends stories and like truly enter into them and create like, empathy and understanding came from also like I'm putting this on your Jonathan to tell me this wrong, but you also unpacked so much of your own wounding.

Jonathan Puddle 

Absolutely, very much true for my brothers and I. Like like, like we, we wouldn't be these kinds of people, if we hadn't didn't have to wrestle with some really painful shit when we were in our teenage years.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

So I think part of this is also realizing we all commit, like we all have these filters and asking where these filters come from, like, what are the backpacks of our own lives that we need to unpack as to how have we come to the values we hold? Like, I love how she talked about, we have this ideology that this is how people act, because I mean, it's the North Americans Act, but that's not actually innate. We are products of our culture and our the time and space that we take up. And I think we need to be unpacking that. I don't know.

Jonathan Puddle 

Yeah, Big time, big time. And I remember we were going in a trauma direction. There's so many layers, again, we say so many layers.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

We're almost always going into trauma direction.

Jonathan Puddle 

One of one of the one of the questions in internal family systems, that that you ask in, in interviewing your parts or your your clients parts, is, you know, what are you afraid would happen? If you weren't protecting yourself in this way? Jonathan, protecting the client in this way, this is what I asked myself, What are you afraid would happen if we weren't doing this? And this is what I'll ask when I when I encounter like an overactive protector part that's like shutting something down, that's shaming me in some way that's doing whatever. And it's very interesting what you hear part, say, because they're always acting in the interest of preservation, they're always trying to do good by you and keep you alive. And they're like, well, well, there was this time, when Jonathan opened up vulnerably to somebody, and this happened. And we don't want that to happen ever again. So we don't do the same. Or, you know, Jonathan admitted about about how much this means to him to these people. And he got ridiculed. So so we just don't really share those passions anymore, you know, and so it's like, what is it? What are you afraid would happen? And I think that's a really an interesting question that we could choose to dialogue with other people on, you know, like, Okay, you seem really, you seem really fired up about this. You seem really concerned about CRT, about reparations, or about, even about even choosing to have a conversation about LGBTQ inclusion in church. What are you afraid would happen if we sat down to have a conversation? And but but moving to a place of, of genuineness and asking that question, because it's very easy to ask that question from a place of snark, which is not a fruit of the spirit of my friends. But to act to actively, like, I think that example you shared is so relevant, because I've witnessed from proximity, not my personal experience, but I've witnessed from proximity, the trans community, being persecuted and attacked by the gay and lesbian community. Because like you said, when you haven't been given as a person of color, when you haven't been given space to thrive, and own the Imago Dei in you, and be a human of worth and dignity. When another group comes along and asks for the same, it's complex it is, you may want to give them that dignity. But none of us can give something we haven't first received. And so there's layers of that in terms of society needing to give us valid valid gifts, ourselves needing to give us valid gifts, needing to see that God has given us valid gifts. Like there's all these layers that are inter woven in there that are all of value and import. But yeah, if we're not doing our work, it's really hard. Think it's a bottom?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

I completely agree. And so I really do think there's a part where it starts with us. yeah.

Jonathan Puddle 

Yeah. This is good. Wow, who I need to go and have a bath now or like, sauna or decompress or just like, fold laundry.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

I love the folding laundry is somehow therapeutic to you. I have no desire to do that. I still have a pile of laundry sitting from like five days ago in our bedroom and no shame in it.

Jonathan Puddle 

There's no shame

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

No shame.

Jonathan Puddle 

Friends, thank you for joining us once again. Tryphena thank you for bringing your full self.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 

Thank you, Jonathan for sharing and for being a safe space to have this conversation.

Jonathan Puddle 

That's it! Let me know what you think at Jonathan Puddle on all the social media channels. If you want to support the show, I would love it patreon.com/jonathanpuddle you can sign up for $3 A month or $30 a year or give whatever you like. And it's sure a blessing to me and is the best way that you can support the work that we do here on The Puddcast. Thank you Tryphena Thank you for listening, everybody. Thank you for being here. And in about two weeks, there will be a fresh interview. Oh, and I'm so excited. I'm not going to tell you it is just in case it doesn't happen. But I am really excited to bring you a heart felt faith and doubt and the faithfulness of God, even while we try to reject him kind of conversation. That's what's planned for two weeks from today, here on The Puddcast. God bless much love, grace and peace to you.