#128: Mystics, mushrooms and the power of letting go (with Kevin Sweeney)
Pastor, poet and mystic Kevin Sweeney comes to The Puddcast this month to share about his journey of encountering God while high on mushrooms. And that’s just the beginning! Starting this episode, we welcome Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon as a co-host on the show. Tryphena and I had a blast with Kevin, exploring what it means to lean into the contemplative and mystical and find God present in the everyday moments of our lives. He explained the importance of transitioning from spiritual peaks to spiritual practices, and how the key to safety, identity and fulfilment really does lie in letting go of everything. We touched on a range of topics, including vulnerability, pastoral idealism, parenting, pursuing the Spirit without the expectations of others, and much more. Get in!
Order The Making of a Mystic: My Journey with Mushrooms, My Life as a Pastor, And Why it’s Okay for Everyone to Relax by Kevin Sweeney.
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Transcription
Kevin Sweeney 00:00
All mystics know that death is the secret to life. You know, surrendering control is the only thing required to feel secure. That's a form of death. Letting go of the need to protect ourselves is the unexpected path toward being safe. Letting go is always a form of death. Forgiveness always requires letting go letting go is always a foreign death. Forgiveness is always a death. That's one of the reasons why our ego resisted so much are the main reason. And surrendering, letting go and releasing are all forms of dying but dying is what makes living possible.
Jonathan Puddle 00:37
Hello, my friends, welcome back to The Puddcast with me Jonathan Puddle. And now with Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon. A special announcement starting this week, I have asked my friend Tryphena to come and co-host the show with me. She may not be available every episode, but we are going to do our best to bring these kinds of conversations that I've been bringing to you for a while I'm going to bring them together. Now you may have heard Tryphena on the show before her and her husband Mark came on to talk about raising in mixed race family. And Tryphena is a common partner with me in the B B-sides which my patrons have had access to. So Tryphena is a really fun person. We are friends in the flesh in real life. She lives in my city. She grew up a second generation immigrant in Toronto. She studied sociology and education. She's been an elementary school teacher, as well as a voice for healing and wholeness in matters of race and intersectionality. And more. You may have seen her on Christian television in Canada, if that's your thing. She is one of the co-hosts on the see hear love show with Melinda Estabrooks, who's also been here on this show. And Tryphena is an Enneagram two, just like me. So I 'm very excited to welcome her to the show as a co host and I believe you are all going to be the better for it—and myself—we're all going to be better for it. My guest on the show this week is Kevin Sweeney. Kevin is a pastor, a poet, a mystic, and a student of sociology and Black Theology. He is this really fun blend of many streams that have informed my life but in a completely different way. And we really hit it off. I think in this interview, it was my first time connecting with Kevin, his debut book is called The Making of A Mystic: My Journey with Mushrooms, My Life as a Pastor, & Why it's Okay for Everyone to Relax. We cover so much ground in this conversation, friends. We do talk about drugs and psychedelics, we talk about intimacy, we talk about the ego, we talk about our false self and vulnerability, pastoral idealism, how to move away from fear and the expectations of others controlling your life and the importance of pursuing the Spirit. So there's something in here kind of I think for everybody. Yeah. Anyway, I mean, that's it. Let's just get into it. So friends, big welcome to Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon as my co host, and our guest for this episode, Kevin Sweeney. Kevin, I'm really, really pumped to meet you, I am going to be super honest, about eight days ago, when I had already proofed I'd already skimmed through your book and would agree to do the interview, I was in a pretty dark space. And I was like, Ah, I don't remember anything about this guy's book or message. I think I'm just gonna blow it off this this, some other books in my stack that I know exactly what they're about, I feel really drawn to that. And I have learned just enough that that unwarranted hatred of a book I don't know anything about is often a little a little tug. And so I'm a foster parent. And we're just in some, some difficult days right now. And, and I have had have had sometimes have a robust, contemplative practice, and I definitely lean towards the mystic. I have been having a hard time to be present. And I finally forced myself to pick your book up again. And it was so timely man. Like, I don't remember if these are your exact words. But what I felt pulled to was like, Oh, this is just pain. Right? This is just pain. And this is just the universe I don't want to live in. But I can only find hope here in this universe now in this present moment and so honestly, it pulled me right back in to everything that I know and practice and am. And it was it was a friggin lifeline for me in the last eight days. So I just want to say thank you for, for leaning in and doing the work and written and bugging me when I didn't respond to you. Because I'm really, really thankful that we're doing this today. So welcome to The Puddcast, and thank you.
Kevin Sweeney 05:26
Yeah, and now I mean, the podcast episode's only gonna be two minutes, because now we're gonna stop the podcast and just be friends. And that's it. Do forget the rest of the conversation. How can we go from that starting point. But no, that's I really, really appreciate you saying that. Because like one, you know, Jonathan Tryphena, I'm so grateful to be on here. Because as a first time author, for people to take a risk, take a chance and invite me on when it I'm not in a place where you're like, Oh, I've seen him on these 15 podcasts I'm familiar with cool. Makes sense. Let's it's a no brainer. So as a first time author, in this transitional season of my own life, I don't know if you know that, but I'm actually transitioning out of and we're closing down the church that we my wife and I started 10 years ago. So I feel like I'm somewhere in between both of you, you know, lighten what you shared in the beginning. And to feel like I'm crossing over a threshold not just with the book, but into a new like decade chapter of my life to be on here with you mean so much. And even those words like, you know, the title of the book, The subtitle, for me, it's like funny, and it's clever, but it's also accurate and real. And what I hope is when people say what do you want from the book, and like that people can see that there's always more life. After the death, it's always resurrection, you know, what we thought was the end was actually just really hard. And we thought we were stuck. And there was actually just some great resistance within us and some serious, real acceptance of the way things are some letting go of the way we thought things were supposed to be. And once we do that, we see that new life from God is always born out of that place. So to even feel that experientially, from the beginning is amazing, because that's a lot of the deepest kind of ground, the deepest heartbeat of the book. So yes, I'm happy to be here. That's an amazing beginning. I appreciate you both. Good.
Jonathan Puddle 07:25
Good. So I'd love you to unpack a little bit of your story. Okay, because from a bird's eye view, you're fascinating to me, bro. Like, I love I love God's stories. And as someone who has wrestled hard with my faith, ditch traditional church for years and somehow ended up the pastor, I, I love the weird and bizarre and it's become my crazy conviction that the Spirit is present in all things at all times, and is always revealing love. So when somebody has a bizarre story, like the fact that mushrooms were the major evangelist in their life, I'm like, tell me more of that story. Why don't you situate us a little bit? Sure. Introduce yourself?
Kevin Sweeney 08:13
Yeah, what's funny about that was I shared off air I'm like waking up early. And I'm going through like this little store to get stuff and I'm stopping by Starbucks for teacher appreciation week right, I'm doing this because my wife said, can you stop by Starbucks because she's doing stuff at the school and the kids. And I was driving this morning and I was thinking to myself, in light of some other conversations I had recently where I'm like, I'm driving to do stuff for my kids' school. I'm I don't know if I'm thinking of like the my book coming out. It's coming out soon. I'm listening to Pusha T, who's a rapper rapping. He's like the king of coke rap, basically. So he raps so much about dope and I'm like, I'm listening to Pusha T . I have, like, all these different I'm like, and I'm thinking about surfing, but I can't I have this other background, like what is funny world we live in, you know. And the weird and the bizarre and the strange, I think are what emerge when we allow our lives to be what they are without being conformed by what we think they're supposed to be. Because everybody's stories like my friends who grew up really hardcore, evangelical or fundamentalist, and they're like, we would be in class, lifting an American or a Christian flag and to like, I don't know, ask a question. I'm like, that's insane. Like, tell me more. And they're like, and you were doing drugs at this age and going here. I'm like, that's normal to me. I want to know about your Christian teacher, because that's really it's just the uniqueness. So I even this morning, I was thinking about that. I'll say this even to situate it. In my spiritual journey. Specifically, I went to Catholic school for a second third grade. In the Los Angeles area, I go to Catholic school and in fourth grade, I went to public school. So LA Unified School District and like kids are cussing and fighting and it's like not that big a deal and my nine year old self was like, this is salvation. Being at the public school and the fighting, I'm like, now I can finally be me in this environment. And, you know, I stopped, like going to mass with my family soon after my dad comes from like a traditionally Irish Catholic family. And my mom and I actually talked about it recently, which is really interesting. And she said, You know, when that happened, I wanted to push it on you more. But your father said, we're not going to do that with him or with my brothers, like, they're old enough to make that choice. And let's essentially just let them be. And I'm really grateful my dad made that decision, because I told my mom, I left the Catholic Church, whatever. He wasn't like, I'm leaving the church. And here's my conscious fill. It was like, No, I just don't want to go. And I left that experience with what I call a pleasant indifference to God to Jesus to church, where I wasn't I what I'm grateful for is I had no, I mean, no. oppositional antagonistic or negative energy towards God life or the church.
Jonathan Puddle 11:11
Someone got out early...
Kevin Sweeney 11:12
And also, I also didn't have, this is what it means to have Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. I had never heard that term. I didn't know about it personally. It was just like, oh, I don't know. And I don't really think about it. And, you know, I have a chapter as you mentioned the book called mushrooms and missionaries. And in that chapter, I tell the story about a young Thomas Merton, the great 20th century Catholic mystic monk, for me, really responsible for reintroducing the church. And perhaps this is audacious to say, a lot of Western culture to the contemplative, which is a big deal. And early on in his awakening experience, he found out this this, this really well known Hindu monk and priests Mahanambrata Brahmachari, was visiting and lecturing at like divinity schools or something. So he tracks him down, and he asks him for guidance. And this brilliant sage doesn't tell the young Thomas Merton to read the Bhagavad Gita or some of his own sacred texts, he tells a young Thomas Merton to read St. Augustine's confessions, Thomas à Kempis' Imitation of Christ. So I look at that. And I say, if those books were integrated into Mertens journey, who then becomes this amazing Christian? This monk was unexpectedly a missionary for Jesus pointing him further towards the fullness of life in Christ. Now for your listeners. Let's take a moment to suspend the need to disentangle and dismantle that word missionary from its colonial empire building patriarchal white supremacist, colonial, murka, kind of, you know, I'm in the US or in Canada, very much murka. We're building this world for God and destroying the planet and degrading cultures along the way. I'm aware of that. I have my own role in dismantling that hopefully, we all are doing that more and more so. But the healthy part of that term is, it's a humble role to point someone further towards something beyond you. That's a beautiful thing when you can embrace it because it isn't about you. It's about that which you're pointing to. And in the same way, that monk was pointing Merton, and it was a missionary for Christ towards Merton. Mushrooms became a missionary for me, pointing me beyond themselves towards the fullness of life in Christ. And that happened, because when I started eating mushrooms at 16, and I did them 10 times until I was 18, until I had this awakening moment directly with God, and I just I sensed within the mushrooms, this thing saying to me, yes, but keep going. It was like, they were a signpost pointing me to a future I couldn't see a freedom I desired but wasn't sure existed, and to a truth I hoped for, but wasn't guaranteed because I was on a journey. Now. I didn't start that journey like I'm 16. And on a spiritual quest for truth, I was like, No, I'm 16. And I do drugs, and mushrooms and mushrooms are the next one I'm going to do. But quickly they became something more and I just kept like I was getting a glimpse of the goal, right. It was a taste of the further banquet, which was always ahead the most was like you have the capacity to experience peace, but the peace you longed for is beyond me to the source itself, essentially, or something like that. And I kept following that path. And I have another chapter in the book called more mushrooms. And the most important moment of my life, which you can read about in the book, and it was the experience of and this was the night when I had this profound, spontaneous, immediate awakening moment with God, which was the law Last night I ever did mushrooms. I never did him again. Because I thought to myself, why would I go back to the signs pointing me to the ocean when I've already jumped into the water. My experience my life, my lifelong goal to this day from that moment, is to wake up to remain in the water, and to eventually wake up as the water depending on how people organize things, but, um, like, to me to go back to that would be going backwards because they were pointing me beyond themselves. And that's, you know, that's the bigger picture of, for me, it just makes sense. Like no altar calls, no youth group. I never heard of those things growing up, and none of my friends in high school ever invited me to youth group. They probably saw me doing mushrooms. They're like, he won't come. So no one invited me. He's wondering. So yeah. So yeah, man, that was a little bit of a journey of, for me, that makes a lot of sense, because that's what happened. So yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 11:43
Thats so fascinating. It's, and so I grew up, I was a missionary kid, and traveled around the world, with my parents doing the missionary work. But for like, from 13 onwards, I was deep in the charismatic church. And so like, what's fascinating to me, is, as I, in my edits, in the last eight years, developed a contemplative practice. And I read Merton every day. And that's not to say that I'm so holy, I literally, it's part of my daily devotional. It's like, I'm currently working through new seeds of contemplation. And I probably will just start it again, when I'm done. Like, I grew up in like the Toronto Blessing. And so these wild, high points of Cara's mania, that's what we were doing. And it's, it's just drugs, man. And that's not to say it's not. That's not to say, real, right? Those are real, but it's like, we ran for high after high, after high after high. And as I remember, going through a dark night of the soul, first time and a friend giving me St. John the cross. And I'm reading this and I'm first starting to unpack a little bit of the contemplative space. And I'm like, Oh, this is what it means to, to actually live in, in the fire of love, rather than just chase a bright, burning light time after time after time. So I Yeah, like that, that just like it landed so many things. In my own experience. For me, it's just fascinating to me that it was, it was drugs and not just drugs. To me. That's fascinating. But like mushrooms, like like a very naturally occurring plant on this earth, one of your most common things that grows everywhere. So there we go. Fascinating.
Kevin Sweeney 17:51
Tryphena do you come out of that, like Pentecostal camp?
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 17:55
Umm, less so. So I found it later in life. But I started in the more conservative like we weren't, it wasn't like you don't focus on the Spirit. You don't focus on your emotions. So to me, when I found that,
Kevin Sweeney 18:09
That's so funny, like, I get that, but it's like what is don't focus on the Spirit emotionally. What are we supposed to do?
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 18:16
Like what's left? Agreed. So when I found the charismatic movement, to me, okay, so a little bit about me, my boyfriend in high school, was a drug dealer. And so he would constantly be tripping on shrooms. So when Jonathan told me your story, I'm like, Oh, I actually get it because he would always talk about it being the most spiritual moment for him and like, forget, like the faith and forget church and youth group. He's like, this is what I'm gonna do. And so reading your book gave me really good context for oh, okay, this is making a lot of sence
Kevin Sweeney 18:46
He wasn't totally full of shit.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 18:49
No. One hundred percent, I, oh my goodness. I need to go back and apologize to this man, but not really. Um, but so then finding the charismatic movement. For me, it was interesting, because it became my drug I remember like, so we moved to Guelph, and I'm like, I need to drive to Toronto, because I need to be where the spirits moving. And so when you talk about after the last time you did shrooms, and you were like, Okay, so now, I can't go back to that, because it's actually taking away from God. I realized that became true in my life, where I'm like, Oh, I'm searching for the spirit in the building in the temple, versus Oh, no, I actually need to find and engage with spirit in my own life and what that looks like.
Kevin Sweeney 19:29
Yeah, that's those conversations about you know, I have a chapter in the book called peaks and paths. And it is that which we see on the peak needs to become who we are on the path. So we talked about peak experiences, right? If you talk to people psychedelic community, there's peak experiences well to me, Jonathan, like you mentioned, you know, when you draw the connections, peak experiences can be yes, you're on psilocybin for mushrooms. You go to your youth group camp, not to say there's no legitimate experience of spirit at all. I'm not saying that. But you can have these peak experiences anywhere. You go to Burning Man with your friends for a week, we were taking Mali at Coachella for three days we were in a there's Christian, there's new age, there's all different versions of, in some ways, what functions as the same thing for us. And we have this profound experience, like, a spiritual experience does not always translate into a spiritual life. Yeah, and when we have these peak, massive, amazing you for Toronto Blessing, why is this person barking behind me? I don't know. But it feels great. You know, and let's keep moving forward. I'm on you know, we're at this concert or whatever. That experience, which is so powerful and so real, whether it's emotional, or whatever, it's felt, right, and experiential sense. It's very powerful. And when it's over, what is the most natural unconscious instinct to go back, to recreate it to look for the next blessing drive back the next weekend to the Toronto Blessing, go to the next big conference, right go to wherever it is. And there's a story I tell in that chapter in the book of where it's like a kid who you know, was taken LSD acid the night before, and he discovered the meaning of life, right? So he's all hyped up because he finally got it. And then the next morning, he wakes up and shares with his friends like to like I'm telling you, like, I discovered the meaning of life. So they're all excited and naturally waiting for him to tell him to like, so what is it and a kid thinks for a second, he's like, I forgot. And by the way, that happens to so many people when they're on like LSD or mushrooms that you're like, I just got it and it's gone. But that's also true of those experiences, where how do you translate that which happened, not to go back to the euphoria but to integrate the vision, the wisdom and an embodied Heart Base kind of a way where you have become that which you've only seen for a glimpse, because that's what I tell people, the real work, never is not on Saturday night, at the youth camp, or at the Toronto Blessing or a person doing an ayahuasca ceremony, their real work is not Saturday night, it's Thursday afternoon. It's Friday, when the magic has faded, and a part of you wants to return just to feel something instead of learning how to become an integrate and transform, right, the peak needs to become a path, the vision that we get needs to be transformed into the values of who we are, right? We we want to return and artificially manufacture this massive God experience when there's this subtle presence of the Spirit that's like it's here. You don't need to go to an ashram in India, you don't need to go back to Burning Man, you don't need to go to a big Christian cathedral, you don't need to go to a conference to wake up to that which is here. And pulsing just beneath the surface of our lives. And that's where contemplation and meditation and practices come in. Because those are the places where the vision we got gets transformed into the values of who we are. But who wants to do five years of silence when I can just go to pay $500. And it's a promise you can die to your ego. And one weekend, I'm like, oh my god, like that's not how this setting anyways, yes. And also, I ended up at a Foursquare Bible College talking about, you know, my life strange and bizarre. So I ended up at a Foursquare Bible College. And when you talk about the weird, the bizarre, that was my first time really around Christians like that many, and I was 21 ish. And the teachers are like, and then we heal this person. And they were a little person. And then they were six feet tall. And then we exercise this demon, those types of stories. And I had never been around that. But just the strangeness, I remember thinking, I was open to anything because I said, Well, I ate a bunch of mushrooms. And now I'm here. So I don't expect any of this to not be weird, right? So I'm open. So that was like a starting point.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 24:05
I love that because there's so much power in the openness, even when you were talking about like the Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, all right, I was, I was reading it. I'm like, ooh, this feels like a kick to my own gut. Because I resonate with that so deeply. It's like, you come off this mountain. And then it's like, Okay, so what's the actual living it out? So then I have a question for you. So you have had this incredible encounter. And I love how you talk about this universal Yes, over your life, where it just came naturally to play. You know, the missionary was the shrooms in your life. So what does that look like? As you get to now share that in Christian evangelical contexts, from places that like myself or Jonathan have come from, right, where it's a space where maybe emotions aren't valid or spirit isn't valid, or whatever it looks like how does that feel for you because later in your book, you talk about not having fear of being vulnerable, but I'm curious how that actually plays out on a day to day.
Kevin Sweeney 24:59
Well, I will For full disclosure, I don't find myself in very many evangelical spaces, although I would if I was invited. But I mean, my wife and I started and led a church for 10 years, which we're, I mean, this this last Sunday of May, will be our last Sunday ever, which is a big deal, right? It's a decade essentially. And I think a part of how that trend how my experience, right so you think about it, I have this immediate this direct immediacy with spirit is the foundation of my faith, not doctrines, not dogma, no atonement theory never really didn't really know about that. I just have this direct encounter. And then I'm like, and then later on, I start doing the conceptual work of trying to make sense of it theologically, but my first thing was, we're in the we're in the ocean. That's it. That's what this is, you know, it's not describing like I'm looking, I can see the ocean reference. Right now I'm in the 37th floor. It isn't about describing the properties of the saltwater. It's like who wants to serve and who wants to go be in the ocean? That for me is where it all begins. And I think the way that my own experience led into pastoring people is, I tell them, I probably tell people, there's so many times the kingdom of God is never is always an invitation. It's never an obligation. Yeah. And you know, when you're a pastor, and you rhyme, damn it, you know, it's true. We're from my experience, there was never it was never a morality project. It was never a theological exam. It was it was just, oh, I just there was this waking up. And this is all here. And so I think one of the ways that translated is me, just consistently inviting people where this whole journey of knowing God is actually being known by God. This whole journey of loving God is actually first and foremost about being loved by God. So when I think what does that mean to love God, you're like, I just love them. But what do you just flex your body? That is it? No, it's to it's the unguarded intimacy, which is our our job is to open our hearts. Our job is to be present long enough, our job is to stop moving our job is stop distracting, numbing and denying, be present long enough to dare to open up our hearts. And the spirit, from my perspective is naturally pouring herself out, into and through and with everybody at all times. And the moment you're open, no matter what you believe, no matter what tradition you're from, no matter where you are, l ike my, the great medieval mystic, Meister Eckhart, this is not verbatim says, like God is faithful to pour himself into us whenever we're ready.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 27:41
So good. Yeah.
Kevin Sweeney 27:42
And so I bring that into, like, I didn't really talk about doctrine or dogma that much, because it's not natural to me, I'm like, what does that have to do with you, being open to accept that you are accepted? That's the real journey for me is I'm telling you, God accepts you. And your lifelong journey is to accept and dismantle all of the things within you that have a hard time trusting, you're already enough. That's the work I'm telling. I'm giving you a vision and community, we can do that together. So for me, it was always openness and trust and letting go and allowing the spiritual journey is about allowing God to undo you and put you back together in a new way. So, you know, for me, it was like there's an ocean, I get to keep inviting people to wake up to the fact that it's here and we can go into it together and to also accept that some of you don't want that. And that's okay. And there's no coercion here. Because it's not an obligation. This is all an invitation. So, yeah,
Jonathan Puddle 28:41
I I'm just I'm just like frustrated, though, because I'm like, how do we, how do we actively disciple people towards this? Because on the one hand, I feel like
Kevin Sweeney 28:51
I'm not very good at that. So I should mention that.
Jonathan Puddle 28:53
Nobody is, this is the point like, like, you read, you read five good, grounded, earthy books on discipleship and what they all ultimately end up saying is that we have to lean into the contemplative that at the end of the day, you're gonna have to get silent and embrace pain. And maybe that happens when you're 30. Maybe that happens when you're 75. But that's the path and then on the flip side, what you also read is but this is rare, and hardly anyone actually ever becomes a contemplative. Like this as an idealist this frustrates me.
Kevin Sweeney 29:29
I am not an idealist. You know, I'm an any for people. If your listeners are you both are familiar with the Enneagram. I'm a five on the Enneagram and which means to be a lead pastor of a church is my worst nightmare. And I did it for 10 years, you know, like it's not like I'm not a three... three sevens and eights are drivers, right? Their energy like a crunch energizes them to go more in a crunch. I'm like, Ah Split, like my default pattern is like just don't care. Like that's my default. Like, if something happened, my default pattern was like I never cared in the first place. So who cares if it falls apart, that's my own cope defense mechanism. And, you know, I was in my 20s, I was very, very, very idealistic and very not ready to enter into the incarnational messiness of real life. And I can look back at my 26, or seven, because when I was in grad school, I was planning to do a PhD. I felt a pastoral, calling them early 20s. In grad school, I was like, I think I'm gonna do a PhD and be a professor. And I was studying black and womanist theology, I had a great advisor, who was the head of the black theology department who was going to be my advisor, he left the school, so I couldn't start. But I can in that moment, it's like, well, I can embrace this pastoral calling and express my gift of teaching. But as I look back teaching instead of pastoring gave me It eliminated the emotional risk of close up relationships. Because as an Enneagram, five, it's like my ideal world. And my default pattern is let me be in my own little cave, like what you see right now. And I'm like, literally, like, it's like me and a clock tower, I'm on the 37th floor, like, I'm gonna be here by myself almost all the time. And I'll come out sometimes to teach and share my grand visions. And right when you want to get close to me, I'm going to come and go back. Because in that idealism within that, in a personal sense, I had two great fears of failing publicly, and disappointing people close to me. And I felt like being a professor, I didn't have to enter into the crucible in the environment and the lived experience that made those a lot more of a reality or a guaranteed reality, you know, because those things are going to happen. And so through the crucible, and heart and reality of passing any idealistic bone in my body, I just surrendered and let go of along the way. And I always work with and accept and embrace and allow people to be exactly where they are. And this person, step four is very different from that person's, because a personality because of all kinds of things and stage of life. And so, what's funny what you're saying, Jonathan, about the contemplative, and most people don't want to do it is 99% of what I've read in my life, which has been a significant amount. No one in my church ever cared about. Yeah, I didn't talk to people about Ken Wilber. People weren't asking me about black and womanist theology, people weren't asking me about the stuff I spent this year. This is my whole life. All right, and no one cares. But the real work is if you look at a massive bookshelf, or whatever, I have the real work. And the point is for me to translate all of that in my body, and in my lived experience, into a concrete expression of my love for my neighbor, which does not mean I talked about all of those things. And it means I allow all of those things to speak through me as I love this person where they are. And a part of the contemplative is like, my whole life is that and very few people in the church, were ever interested in it, to be honest. And I'm like, That's okay. They don't. I remember having, I was talking to a friend in the church about this. And we're talking about silence and solitude and, you know, maybe like gaining distance in meditation in silence, it's a conscious experience of your true self, where you actually experientially gain distance from ego, you're like, I'm over here, my egos over there. And that's what happens in content in psychedelic experiences, too. That's why they're so profound, or in high word peak experiences, more ship or whatever. And I told him, if you commit to 20 minutes in silence, four days a week or something for five years, you'll start to get it. Yeah. You'll start to, and I'm like, that's why, you know, I quote, this Rumi quote, in the intro to the book where Rumi says, you know, you dance inside my chest where no one sees you. And I have that up on the wall in my house. Because to me, the gift is in the life of it in the receive my joys is that if people are interested, great, but that's what that's the life for me is the actual union connection, living breathing. Every time I've surrendered, I've been more free every time I've let go, I've been more filled with love. So the joy is in that and if people are interested, cool, if not, it's like the secret you carry within you that no one cares about that, ironically, you know, is the most important thing in the world. So it's just acceptance of like knowing most people don't give a shit about what I believe in my heart is the most is the foundation of what it means to be free. is a funny thing. You know, the world's strange and bizarre and maddening like you say
Jonathan Puddle 34:58
Thank you.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 34:59
Oh my goodness.
Jonathan Puddle 35:01
We will take a quick pause so I can talk about support. Friends, I'm so thankful for all of you who share this podcast, who have read my book who have bought it for friends. And for those of you who chip in via Patreon, if you are enjoying the show, if you'd like to support me, the best way you can do that is at patreon.com/jonathanpuddle, you can sign up for as little as $3 a month or $30 a year. And it will be a huge blessing to me and my family. Thank you very much for considering that. And let's get back to the show.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 35:35
In some ways, that's so freeing, though, right? Because I think at least in my own life, I've had this theology where everything I do needs to be productive needs to be for God, it needs to be accomplishing something on this land, versus like, okay, I can just take time to become the Imago Dei, that I am in my unique own way. And that itself, is what I'm here for. That's good enough. Okay. So as you as you're both talking, and we're talking about discipleship, what is it because you have two kids? What does that look like? Because you're discipling them. And so it's a part of me and like I listened to you talk and I'm like, I'm partially jealous of how much you didn't have to unpack not that God is not constantly unpacking, like our journeys, but how do you get to impart this to them? And not? I mean, we're all my kids are in the counseling, I'm filling them up with stuff they're gonna need to unpack anyway. What are you doing?
Kevin Sweeney 36:27
Well, that's, you know, that's a great question. Because like I said, the book is, like, I tell people, the book is about the non dual. You know, it's like these things you think are very abstract about mysticism. Like, it's about the non dual, and not choosing building a platform over your kids. Right? It's about this great cosmic vision, but it's really about the concrete love of whoever's in front of you. And so I'm always like, the, my 27 year old, idealistic self just wants to stay in the clouds. And after 10 years of pastoring, and letting go of all that, I'm like, No, it's all earthy. And it's all right here in front of me, it's my kids, it's this conversation with both of you like this is it and my kids are three and three and a half and five and a half. And it's actually a thing I've thought about that I find strange now, where my daughter will have virtually no conscious memory of me ever preaching, or my wife and I ever leading a church, which was such a massive part of our life, and my son will have none. Because he was 16 months or so when COVID When the shutdown started, and then that just, you know, we kind of never really met fully we did meet but we never went back to that. And, you know, when I'm, we do we have, you know, at nighttime, you know, our routine with the kids, you know, read this book, read this other book about it's like sciency, God stuff for kids, it's, you know, which is good for them. And then there's like, my son's I got him this little kids Bible, or whatever. And what that looks like, is me calling them into this story. me wanting them to know there's this larger story, this path of Jesus that we've given our lives to that we believe leads us to life. And there's these stories, and we're going to start, you know, so much of our spiritual life is unconscious. That's why it's funny of like, people can stop believing in God consciously and still feel tormented by God as an inner critic, because God operates in an unconscious way, in that way. It's a fascinating thing. It's like an inner critic, you know, and that's what I picked up from kids. You know, like, I didn't not growing up like that, but like, family systems, God talk trauma, it all gets entangled into one confusing thing. And so, I call them into the story like it's trippy, or as weird as maybe someone thinks I am like, I'm a Christian. Some people might if they read the book, or if they know me more, they might not want to fully there like he is, but But no, I like I've given my life to this path. And that means sometimes I'm changing words, in real time, when I'm reading these books. I'm like, this is helpful. This is not. That means when I read this story, that this kid's Bible that just reading it almost makes me cringe or whatever. It's I'm giving you context and framing it for you after so, I'm calling them into the story because for me, I still haven't found a more beautiful story than this that holds together the cosmos in a in a narrative way. And I love it, and I'm caught, but I'm also reframing, and there's words I don't use or there's words I change. And yeah, that's, that's my role. And but also, it's just that's the wisdom of stages of faith and stages of consciousness and spiral dynamics is it's whatever's developmentally appropriate. When I read the Noah story, I'm not like no kids, Genesis one through 11 is probably prehistory. And it didn't happen. It's like no, you know what happened? That's what happened. And then when my daughter is 16 She back data but yeah, it didn't freakin happen like that come on, or whatever age she starts to ask those questions, but right now, that's the part of the beauty when you hear those, that term of transcending and including which, you know, people get from Rohr, which, you know, really comes from Ken Wilber. Which I always tell people. You know, we all have like that special person for a while like, it's Richard Rohr. It's a Thomas Merton. It's these great teachers. It's a Brené brown. For some people. It's inaudible whatever. I'm like, for 30 years that person for Richard Rohr was Ken Wilber. So think about the profundity of what Wilber saying if he's that person for Rohr. So anyways, I don't have the anger and angst to like, get rid of everything for my kids. You know, it's like, no, this is how it works. When you're five, yeah, Moses or whatever, this is how it happened. And when you're older, it's like, well, there's a different way of seeing this, you know, but the story is going to get in them. And I want that to be the best version of the story. So they have as little to unlearn as possible when they're older. But I also accept, they'll have some to unlearn. So I'm going to do this imperfectly. Yeah,
Jonathan Puddle 41:10
that's so good.
Kevin Sweeney 41:11
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 41:12
These are the conversations that are like, my kids are older than yours. And so you know, I've got a My sons are 13 and and 11. My 11 year old thinks deeply and asks complex questions. And, you know, the other day, he's like, Daddy, I was thinking about the creation narrative, and blah, blah, blah. And, you know, and ask some pointed question about how this particular thing worked. Right? And I can tell he's in science and, and I'm like, oh, yeah, well, I'm pretty sure that's poetry. And, and he paused for a minute, and then digested it. And I was like, oh, yeah, right, that makes perfect... yeah yeah for sure. Okay, great. Like, now I can put that data point over here. And that makes way more sense. So he's already intuiting, "The point of this story is God rather than chaos." And goodness, rather than, you know, violence, and, okay, great. So I mean, that's great, because I only really settled into that in the last 15 years, you know, or less than last eight years, you know? So yeah, I love that. That's so good. One of the things too, that I think I would add to that not, you may well be doing this, too. But I is listening to them. And like, what do you think about this? I'm always trying to push myself back to ask the question, ask the question. I always have answers. But I'm like, ask the question. What do you think happened there? And he's like, Well, you know what? No, I don't think Adam and Eve were the only humans that doesn't. It doesn't make any kind of sense to me. And I'm like, cool, because it never did to me, either. So my man.
Kevin Sweeney 42:51
yeah,
Jonathan Puddle 42:52
let's let's roll with that
Kevin Sweeney 42:53
he's like, "Dad in a universe that's 13.8 billion year.... How does this you're like", Yeah, I don't know. It doesn't.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 43:02
I find it interesting, though. Because you're just you're talking about like, the spheres and the different stages of faith. And we see that really, obviously, with children, right, like some minor four and six. And so for sure. It's like so you know, like you spoon feed them when they're younger. And so it's when you check we, what's the first there's a verse right when you're like, I think like a child when I'm a child, and as a man or a woman. I function differently, right?
Kevin Sweeney 43:23
That's how I quote Bible verses show like, it's something like this. And I think it's in this book, whatever you get it.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 43:29
That's exactly me right now. But I think so even as we talk about the contemplative and have so many people don't move towards it. I think even listening to your story, Kevin and Jonathan, knowing a bit about yours, like so much of the moving towards the contemplative comes out of pain, and being willing to walk through the pain, and like the death and resurrection that comes with that I think of my own life. And as much as like, I joke that I struggle with the contemplative and I do, it really came to a head for me in pain, like in burnout, and all of those moments, and having to walk it through. And so what I really admire about, like, what you had written and even the way you're living your life out right now is, you're okay allowing things to die. Like I can count on my hand, the amount of people I know who would allow a church to die, because the stage has moved on. And I think that's really significant. Because I think that's where you're meeting spirit is in the pain, and in the transitions. And so I love that
Kevin Sweeney 44:30
All mystics know that death is the secret to life. You know, surrendering control is the only thing required to feel secure. That's a form of death. Letting go of the need to protect ourselves is the unexpected path toward being safe. Those letting go letting go is always a form of death. Forgiveness always requires letting go letting go is always a form death. Forgiveness is always a death. That's one of the reasons why our ego resisted so much are them main reason. And surrendering, letting go and releasing are all forms of dying, but dying is what makes living possible. Right. And that's why, even though the lives and experiences of the true mystics are rare, and I think sometimes they're seen with a romantic lens, you know, like, I just want to be a mystic or whatever, they're, for me, they're real mystical. The real journey of the mystic is anything but romantic, because the mystic is the one who voluntarily chooses to die out like prayer, silence, solitude, which for me, are all essentially the same thing. Prayer is a place where you let yourself fall apart in the presence of God. If you let yourself fall apart in the presence of God, the world will not break you down fully, because you're already allowing yourself to do that. I'm not surprised when the world's breaking me, I'm already allowing myself because I am broken and I am in need. And I am fragile, and I have limitations. And I'm not perfect. And I have to return to that. Prayers, allowing myself to be imperfect and still dare to trust that I'm loved over and over. And that involves a dying and a letting go. And so I'm strong and I'm not supposed to ever feel tired and tired is a weakness or I'm supposed to keep moving. And I do know the ego resists limitations very strongly, and a part of our life and what's suffering pushes us up against our limitations to see them as limitations. And if we allow it to we can start to surrender some of those or I mean, accept some of those mid Yeah, I can't do everything. And yeah, the mystic freely lets go of things. Most people have to be forced to. You know, it's like you cannot expose when I would tell people you cannot expose that which I'm willing to share honestly. And you cannot break down that which I'm willing to let fall apart on my own. So it's just like that one. Paul, you know, when I'm weak when then I'm strong. It's the power of powerlessness, the strength of helplessness. This is all the great mysteries you discover in the contemplative surrendering and letting go.
Jonathan Puddle 47:12
That's so good.
Kevin Sweeney 47:13
Yeah. Yeah. So Tryphena let yourself rest some stop working so hard. I can already feel it here. He stopped me No, no more. And especially as moms like my wife is like, special. Like, she works so hard. She does so much. And that's why we're great partners. My wife, Sandy Graham, too. So she's the helper. And I'm a five. So she's a perpetual giver. I'm a perpetual taker. Hello. Come on. Now. It's called chemistry.
Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon 47:44
Right there.
Kevin Sweeney 47:45
And I've said this before, a long time ago. I'm like, in our relationship, my lifelong journey is telling my wife, it's okay to rest. It's okay to stop. Her lifelong journey is like, Babe, theres shit to do. So workers to do so. Because as a five, I retreat beyond the boundaries of myself and stay here as a two or as helpers, you you overextend beyond your boundaries. I'm calling her back. She's calling me forward. And that's what we do for each other forever. Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 48:18
Yeah. That's, so I'm a two married to an eight. And so we had to learn to both stop. I had to learn to both rest and we are going on vacation for three weeks together. For the first time in 13 years
Kevin Sweeney 48:35
That's awesome.
Jonathan Puddle 48:37
Even asking at the end of the show, I always ask my guests to pray. Having you know what, you've just vocalized in terms of prayer and silence. It feels I don't know. Like it'd be a little cheap for me to say, hey, now could you want to three blesses, please. But if there's any
Kevin Sweeney 48:56
Yo Kev, there's still that you still got some of that four square in you, so hit us with some of that energy.
Jonathan Puddle 49:01
cast out all of our demons, make us short people into tall people, I would be super appreciative. But yeah, whatever is whatever feels real to you, man, even if it's a practice that you can leave with us, or just some some words, as we maybe want to lean into this ourselves.
Kevin Sweeney 49:19
Yeah, no, that's a that's a I love that invitation. Because while I am not, I'll be totally honest, I'm not like a big intercessory prayer person. I'm just, I'm not. And there's many times I even when you asked about like the concreteness of parenting, right, and how I lead and even for me, embracing the uniqueness of who I am in my pastoral role for 10 years, there was multiple moments where I'm like, trying to get into grad school and hoping I get in or something's happening with the church. And it was one of those moments where I could feel this energy. It's weird how you know, environments and cultures are in us. And I'm like, oh, This is the moment as a pastor where you're supposed to like, storm the gates of heaven to God in the name of Jesus, we just do this for our church and just make a way. And I get that because there's sincerity there because the person is hoping for life for their people. That's a good thing, you know. But I'm like, I just, I'm not the type who's like, if I just get pumped up enough, I'm gonna somehow turn the cosmic wheels and get, like, if I just say this one more time, God's like, gosh, you know, he said that it was the 17th time that got me. So let me just give him some more money for the church or something. And I would get to those moments. And while I would laugh and back, I don't do that. I mean, I still, you know, I still do pray for people, but I just don't do it as frequently. And it's not as long when I do it. But even with the contemplative, it's like, Why pray for my family? I pray for my kids. And, you know, a lot of times pastoral. Yeah. But yeah, like someone, I'll pay for you. Then a few weeks later, right? Before hanging out with it. I'm like, Oh, shit, I haven't prayed for him. I should do that. Now in case that yes, I didn't do that. So let me give you 10 seconds.
Jonathan Puddle 51:05
Thank you for vocalizing what we all do.
Kevin Sweeney 51:07
Yeah. But with that said, I would love to close us down and be able to pray for both of you, and for the people tuning in. Thank you. God, thank you for this time, with my brother and sister. And I pray that we would leave this with this, that this conversation would be like an alarm clock waking us up to this moment, and your presence and how far we've come. And in the midst of the pain and the chaos and how hard it is, at the same time still have the eyes to see how good this is, and how real you are and how powerful love is and how in deconstructible. Love is in the midst of other things falling apart around us. So for my brother and sister for Jonathan and Tryphena, would you leave them further into love? Would you help them trust more this falling into grace? And would you give them the eyes to see the moments where it's like, wait, this is everything right here? My kids asking these questions the people around me, this mundane moment with my family somehow carries the miracle of all of existence, God. And for the listeners, I pray that, that each of you would wake up to the magic and the miracle and the mundane of every single day, and that you would know that the fullness of God exists in the sanctuary of your own presence. And would you trust that and see that and taste that and wake up to that in a brand new way in the season of your life? In Jesus name, amen.
Jonathan Puddle 52:56
Amen. Thank you, Kevin. Thanks, Tryphena. There's one thing that I do want to quickly say that I just felt a little bit like I should clarify. When I mentioned the Holy Spirit and revival and saying it's all just drugs. I was not trying to make the statement that everyone was actually on literal drugs and the Holy Spirit wasn't present. That was not what I was saying. And I know that sound perhaps if you have a more literal ear, like that was literally my words. My apologies for that what I was trying to say. And first of all, I'm firmly charismatic, I remain charismatic, I remain convinced of the Spirits work in our lives. And that does happen, sometimes manifested in revival contexts. But my concern having spent many years in this space and still posturing in this space, I was at my last revival Lee event conference over Easter weekend. So this is not a part of my life that I have lobotomized. But I have observed the abuse of revival. And I've observed the addictive kind of behavior where Holy Spirit highs are used like a drug. And so that was my point, said it's all just drugs. That was a little bit of hyperbole on my part that I just wanted to make clear was was not my friends. Thank you so much for listening. glad that you're here. I hope that you got something out of this conversation with Kevin, Tryphena and I recorded a B-side that is going to be up here on the main podcast. That's another new piece of news for you so much pieces of news in this episode, starting immediately. The B-side which used to be exclusive for patrons only is now going to be here on the main podcast feed in between the other regular episodes. So a couple of weeks from now. There'll be a B-side to this conversation dropping with Tryphena and I kept the mics rolling after the fact I unpacked some of the ways that this was landing in each of us. And then a couple of weeks after that, there'll be another interview. So that's going to be the new kind of cadence and rhythm that we are trying out here on The Puddcast. Bear with us. Maybe there'll be some, some tweaks. And as I mentioned, my wife and I are going away on holiday shortly, so that will probably be scheduled. Anyway, friends, if you want to go and grab a copy of Kevin's book, you'll find it linked in the show notes, which you can also find at JonathanPuddle.com. Remember, that was Kevin Sweeney. And his book is called The Making of a Mystic: My Journey with Mushrooms, My Life as a Pastor, and Why it's Okay for Everyone to Relax. You'll find him on social media. And all of that is linked in the show notes at JonathanPuddle.com. And guys, if you've really been enjoying this, if you want to chip in to the show support my work, it is hours and hours of labour. We also produce a text transcript for the hearing impaired or for people who prefer to read lots and lots of labour here. I would love and value your support. You can become a supporter of the show at patreon.com/jonathanpuddle. Thank you so much for considering friends, grace and peace to you. We will see you again.