#132: Why single women are leaving the church (with Dr. Katie Gaddini)

Sociologist and author Dr. Katie Gaddini joins us to talk about the factors forcing single evangelical women out of the church. Rather than a focus on faith deconstruction, we talked about power structures and cultural norms, such as “the ideal Christian woman,” how such stereotypes develop, and how they alienate people who don’t fit them. We touched on sexuality, purity culture, whiteness, patriarchy, affluence, wealth, and more in a quest to understand why the largest group currently leaving the church is women. This important conversation is based on Dr. Gaddini’s helpful and accessible book, The Struggle to Stay: Why Single Evangelical Women Are Leaving the Church, which I highly recommend.

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Transcription

Katie Gaddini  00:00

What I found for a lot of them is the fight or the struggle, or the biggest issue in their lives was to feel part of the community to feel included in their church and in their Christian community. And they weren't feeling that way. I also wanted to create a balanced picture of what their faith looked like. I did have a lot of academic colleagues, who considered women's involvement in Christian churches to be akin to an abusive relationship or to be brainwashed in some way. And I personally didn't have that experience in the church and the women I met don't have that experience. So I wanted to show that, you know, the church can be a tremendous place of comfort of healing of connection, but it's not all one sided.

Jonathan Puddle  00:46

Hey, friends, welcome back to The Puddcast with me, Jonathan puddle and my co-host Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon. Our guest on today's show is sociologist and author, Dr. Katie Gaddini. And we talked today all about the factors forcing single evangelical women out of the church. Katie's major research project is available now to read in her her book, The Struggle to Stay: Why Single Evangelical Women Are Leaving the Church. And so rather than a focus on faith deconstruction, that that we have been talking about a lot here. We talked in this interview about the kind of cultural norms, the powerful ideas that have developed within evangelicalism that alienate people, and cause them to question whether church is a place for them. We discussed the ideal Christian woman idea, have similar concepts and ideas have developed, touching on sexuality, purity, culture, race, social standing, affluence, wealth, and bunch of the different things that that end up contributing to a place where single women, especially in their 30s, don't feel like they're included in the life of the church. If you are a woman, if you're a pastor, if you care about the state of the church, there's something in this interview for you. I commend this to you, I think everybody will be able to take something interesting away from this discussion. So check the show notes at the end for details on Katie and where to get her book. But let's get right into it.

Jonathan Puddle  02:33

I'm thrilled to welcome to the show today, Dr. Katie Gaddini. Katie, this book, The Struggle to Stay: Why Single Evangelical Women Are Leaving the Church, is not only really well researched, and thoroughly sourced, and I went through the bibliography and I'm like, hot damn, the number of books.. she is pulling on the other side, not books, works, that she's pulling on from here. So that's all absolutely great. But you know, also, your prose is beautiful. You are a really evocative writer, while presenting hard-hitting and well-researched detail. So I just I'm, I'm in awe and I'm very thankful. And it's a great honor and pleasure to have you here.

Katie Gaddini  03:22

Thanks, Jonathan. And thanks, Tryphena. It's great to be here with you both. And yeah, I'm excited to discuss the book with you and hear your thoughts.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  03:28

We're so glad you're here. And Jonathan is not lying about how lovely your writing is. So I crammed the book this morning. To be honest, I had kids throwing up last night and I was like, Okay, I'm going to skim it. And I'm going to just get it done. I was telling Jonathan ice to open like the preface, like the preface, and I couldn't put it down like your writing is so good and engaging. I had to actually read every word. So thank you, thank you. Cuz I know that takes a lot of effort just to make it flow as well as it did. It was a fun read in what shouldn't have been a fun read.

Katie Gaddini  04:00

Good, I'm glad and I really wrote it in that way on purpose so that it would be enjoyable or accessible. Maybe it's a better word for women in the church who needed this book.

Jonathan Puddle  04:12

Yeah, yeah, I'm not being a woman. But being a reader. I think you've I think you nailed that. We, you know, we just even in the last few episodes, we've been talking deconstruction, we've been talking wrestling with your faith. I mean, that's been big parts of Tryphena and my one's journeys individually, my wife and I went through deconstruction, like 15 years ago. But that's not that's not strictly your topic here. And you're kind of coming at it from it from another angle, which I found was really, really worthwhile. So this is sociological look at kind of like the toxicity factors if I can use that language that are causing harm to women in the church. Some causing some of them to leave causing like some to stay But but remaining in harm, and especially for women of color or for women who are not upper middle class or comfortably middle class. And not and not. I think one of the things too, that really touched me as someone who has a very complex relationship with the church, is you're very generous and kind to the reality of community and church as a positive influencer. So, I'd love to hear kind of from from the outset, why this topic? Why this approach to it? How did how did this happen?

Katie Gaddini  05:37

I wanted to look at originally, women's approach to sexuality within the church. So I myself grew up in American evangelicalism, US American evangelicalism, and was part of purity culture, which was a huge part of the 80s, 90s, early 2000s. So when I moved to England, and was doing my PhD, I wanted to know how had that purity culture translated or moved across the pond. So I set out to kind of investigate that and sexuality, especially for women that were in their 30s, who are still single, unmarried, who were not necessarily receiving the lessons that we received as teens or in our early 20s, around sexuality. And then what I found is that sexuality was a big topic for some women, but not for everyone. And there were other issues that were more important to them. So I had to shift my research agenda, so to speak, to be more inclusive and more open to what were important to these women. And what I found for a lot of them is the fight or the struggle, or the biggest issue in their lives was to feel part of the community to feel included in their church and in their Christian community. And they weren't feeling that way. I also wanted to create a balanced picture of what their faith looked like. So I mentioned in the book that I did have a lot of colleagues, academic colleagues, who were not familiar with religion, who considered women's involvement in Christian churches to be akin to an abusive relationship or to be trapped or to be brainwashed in some way. And I personally didn't have that experience in the church and the women I met don't have that experience. So I wanted to show that, you know, the church can be a tremendous place of comfort, of healing, of connection. But it's not all one sided. So I tried as much as possible to show that balance perspective, because that also gives us an answer as to why women would stay in such a space that doesn't allow us to resort to the brainwash argument.

Jonathan Puddle  07:44

Yeah, that's a great point. I've been having this conversation with a few people now. And they're often saying, you know, but yeah, there was this good part. And there's this other part, but I just, and we had Jonathan Martin on the show recently, and he said said the same thing. It'd be so much easier for us if it was 100%. Toxic?

Katie Gaddini  08:01

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  08:02

But it's not for any of us, like, hardly anything is, it's what makes it so much more difficult and confusing to parse out, and ultimately, to leave it whatever that happens to be other relationships with a community of friend living in a particular geographic area. Can I ask what interested you personally like, what brought Katie to this?

Katie Gaddini  08:26

So I myself, grew up in the church, my dad was a pastor, I have a family of pastors, uncles, and aunts who are pastors. And then I had my own experience in my 20s, of questioning things and just feeling not questioning God, not questioning scripture, but questioning church culture and feeling like I don't fit with this. And some of these rules, or things I've been told, don't make sense to me anymore. So it was really a personal experience of trying to find a church community that I could fit in. And I did briefly find that while I was living in Spain, I found a wonderful, small, inclusive community. And then when I moved to the UK, I tried to find that again, and I just couldn't, and I went to so many churches and so many different pair of churches and finally gave up because I was so tired of trying to fit myself into that mold or to find a space that aligned with my values and my interpretation of the Bible and of Christianity. And, you know, to your point, Jonathan as well, if it if it not being all bad, and having so many positive elements, you know, there's still things about Christian community and about church that I really miss. And I hear this all the time, from people I talked to who are no longer involved in the church, that they are glad they're out. They're not looking to go back, but there are certain elements that they miss, and that doesn't go away. And I think that really speaks to the place in society that church has and the value that it can bring, which cannot be undermined and can't be explained away. So that's my own experience with it. And I wanted to shed light on that experience to make sense of what had happened with me and some of my friends and cousins. And then to see what the experience was like for other women,

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  10:16

I really appreciated that you were able to hold the tension, like the dialectic of there were beautiful things that happened, and there were toxic, really painful things that continue to happen. And I know like even in my own journey of unpacking my faith. That was the hard part. Because even so, my undergrad was sociology, I remember studying everything as like a young adult and doing clay. So this is actually if I look at the systems and structures we've inherited, and that have influenced why we believe what we believe and why churches function, that's why I'm like, okay, so this isn't all God ordained. And then I would take that and try and mix it with my theology and my leaders at church, and there was no resonance, there was such a disconnect, cuz they're like, No, like your systems, instructors have nothing to do with it. This is how God has ordained for structures to be whether it be women in leadership, or people part of that are part of the LGBTQ plus community, or whatever that is. So I loved that you were able to bring those both together and just even honor positive attributes that have come out of churches. So one of the big things you touched on a lot was community. And so what do you think it is about this? Because I feel like so many of the women you interviewed said they stayed for the community, like why were they part of a church, even when it was painful, even when they felt like they were having to fit into this mold? What do you think it is about that community piece that keeps us there?

Katie Gaddini  11:30

What I have to say, as well, the research sites that I was focused on were big urban spaces, right? So London and New York. So you'll be able to tap into, you'll be able to speak much better about community and a less urban metropolitan space. But from what I saw, you know, these are big cities, these are people in their 20s, and 30s, which is a really big transitional time. For a lot of people. It's Post University, if you go to university, it's finding a job, it's establishing a career, it's possibly finding a partner, or maybe having children. There's a lot of flux, that uncertainty in this period. And it can be quite lonely, especially if you're new to a city, it's hard to connect with people. And the church provides a really nice container and a nice space to connect with other people. And not just to connect with people, but in a very intimate and close way. And you know, you can meet people through exercise classes, or through work or through volunteer activities, but it doesn't have the intimacy that the church community brings. And there's various reasons for that, you know, if you think about sharing and prayer, praying for one another, confessing to one another accountability groups, or even the intimacy and emotion involved in worship services, especially if they're charismatic, all of those are intimacy building projects, and that's going to foster these closer relationships with other people. And I think fundamentally, as humans, we want that closeness with people. And especially if you're in a transitional space in life, and you're in a big city that need is greater, and it's even harder to find.

Jonathan Puddle  13:02

Yeah, that's so real. We lived in a small week, my wife and I moved to Finland, for six years when we were first married, and for her to do her Master's. And, you know, we, we slipped into this completely different culture, and we left church and it was this really healing and therapeutic time in our life. Then we moved back to Toronto. And it was like the biggest culture shock. And, and I especially felt lonely. And I never, I never felt lonely in Toronto, I'd grown up half my like a good chunk of my life in Toronto, it was home. But suddenly, everything that you just described, you know, was so real. We had young kids, we were trying to figure out our own selves, and where we were at now and all this stuff. And I remember the like, the effort, you would have to go through to schedule time with someone months down the road. Remember, we want to ask some friends? Yeah, would you be interested in putting something on the calendar like every Friday? And this kind of look of confused horror, passing over their eyes, before they were able to catch it was like, it gutted me and so and so like, like, you kind of said, a route church, like you get tired of pushing, you get tired of asking of trying. So that's yeah, that's fascinating to me. Yeah, that church on the one hand, provides this social glue that is so desperately needed, especially in urban spaces, but can only offer so so much, what are you going to say Tryphena?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  14:44

I was just saying it's interesting because there is so much beauty and power and community and you know, like breaking that loneliness and all of that. Then you also continue to speak about even when you in your parts about purity culture, how often the guilt and the shame wasn't for themselves, they were like this was pleasurable. This was great. I morally am okay with this. But I feel guilty and shameful because of the leaders around me because of the community. So somehow I so this is where I struggle, because I think there's so much power and beauty and community and in the intentionality the church is put into that. But where's the line from it not being manipulative? And it's because we're preying on your lonely moment, we're getting you into this great community, and now you have to abide by the systems and strife.

Jonathan Puddle  15:30

Can I, Can I read your words, Katie?

Katie Gaddini  15:32

It's a great point, Tryphena. Go for it.

Jonathan Puddle  15:34

Page 98. "Liv felt guilt, not because she violated her own beliefs around sex, but because she violated other evangelicals' beliefs. It was as if her fellow Christians foisted the guilt upon her. And she could either receive it with open arms and change her sexual behavior, or resist it by keeping her sexual life secret." Secrets are great community builders... but that's exactly yeah, like.

Katie Gaddini  16:01

Yeah, and this is this double edged sword, right? That the more intimate and close you are with people in your community, the higher the expectations become abiding by certain norms that enable the community to be what it is. So it's a real paradox in a way like in order for the Christian community to distinguish itself and to be separate from other forms of connection and community. It has to have boundaries around it. But the boundaries that are often erected are the ones that are limiting, constraining, constricting hurtful to people inside it. So how do we have that the benefits of community without some of the toxic elements?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  16:44

Mm hmm.

Jonathan Puddle  16:45

Yeah. Which, which comes into the accountability, right, where you also talked about, you know, at its best accountability can help us remain true to our own goals.

Katie Gaddini  16:57

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  16:57

But at its worst, becomes this this policing, and controlling, threatening kind of behavior, that that I've certainly witnessed firsthand. I remember, in trying to share this without incriminating details, I remember individuals telling me that they were expected to check in with their small group leaders in an almost hourly basis via text message. I'm like, That's batshit crazy. That's like that, is that the more abundant life bet that Jesus promised us? Surely.

Katie Gaddini  17:40

Yeah, or, you know, instances of women feeling the need or wanting each other to police each other's bodies in the way that they dress, the way that they move their bodies, the way that they present themselves, like their aspect if they're giggling too loud, you know, they. So when it gets into those micro levels, and I think when it comes down to policing the body, it's such a level that can be really dangerous. And this is something that happens often happens with amongst women. So it's not it's even outside the sort of male patriarchal hierarchy that we traditionally think of.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  18:17

I think sometimes though, it is as as women who uphold so many of the patriarchal views that we are at, right, we end up totally under within the box I loved when you talked about like you summarize the feminist theory of women being able to manipulate their desires in such a way to subvert their wants into a patriarchal society. And I thought that was so interesting, because it's the continuing to keep yourself small to mold yourself to fit into the, you know, the whatever the messaging that you're getting. And so even when we speak about accountability, Jonathan, your story or Katie, I like my struggle comes with what we're teaching women and men about who they are like what I thought was so fascinating about your book was there was this is not like a critique on your book, what I think it's just interesting about our faith, our faith is there's so little about Jesus, right? Because in my life, Jesus is the like, the freedom Jesus is love. Jesus is the part that brings peace. And so instead, what we've spent so much of our faith do like perpetuating and messaging is, well, you're actually horrible. And so you need accountability. And you need community to keep you around all the time to you know, to keep you in check to be telling you what you can and cannot do. are you giggling too much? The amount of times I have conversations with girlfriends, where it's okay, well, I need you to discern with me if this is the right job or not, which is great. I think there's power in discerning and community. What I'm realizing now as a grown woman is how I don't trust my own instincts because I've been taught that my instincts are bad. So when you talk about policing around a body, like that actually plays into so many spheres, and why we still have like you talk about like the New York or the London church, where they laugh. Sorry, I'm talking a lot here. I apologize. It's gotten long. I'm where they allow women in leadership. But still, you end up with mostly men in leadership. Because you have groups of women who are taught to not trust their own selves and their bodies and their minds.

Katie Gaddini  20:12

I love this, this quote that I include in there from the poet and writer Cathy Park Hong where she talks about this disfigurement of senses. And she's writing about that in terms of racism in the US. So that's the original context. And I borrowed her understanding of this disfigurement of senses of this just in looking at the root of that word, the etymology is this distrust of senses and that happens so often for women, women of color, working class, women that are experiencing marginalization on so many multiple levels, then become taught to distrust their intuition or their sense that something's not right here. There is discrimination going on, and I don't even trust it anymore. Because I've been told so many times that it's not happening, or that it's all in my head. And that's really dangerous when it reaches that point.

Jonathan Puddle  21:03

Absolutely. I mean, even even within this is, I'm sure, no surprise, but it's like, there was this pervasive message that we shouldn't trust our emotions that emotionality is sort of like the shortcuts to sin. And so definitely not be led by your emotions. Okay, well, that's one box. But then the next box was, you know, but women there, they certainly are led by their emotions, so, so somehow, women, the, the messaging I we received, I received, you know, was that ultimately even in the church, women are kind of these temptresses that can't control their own sin, and certainly will lead you to sin, but yet are also somehow to be held responsible for male sexuality among other issues, right, that the whole thing of the burden of sexual purity falling on women to keep men from sexual sin. But also we can't trust women to be in leadership because they're so easily led astray. Like this doesn't compute one bit. This is not even within the false, the completely false narrative riddled with lies, it is incoherent.

Katie Gaddini  22:21

Right. And I think there's a lot of those paradoxes or contradictions within that we're talking about or that I explore in my book have, on the one hand, you've received a calling from God to pursue ministry to pursue ordination. And you are to trust that prophecy that came to you and the service. On the other hand, there's no positions for you, and we can't open any more up and we don't want to put you forward. So what are you supposed to do when you have these competing messages that the church leadership is telling you, and also this competing message, you're hearing one message from God, and you're hearing another message from your church leaders? And that can be part of that disfigurement that happens have senses of can I even trust what I think God is saying to me when it contradicts everything I'm seeing on the ground?

Jonathan Puddle  23:14

Can you can you run us through some of just kind of like a high level overview of some of the big areas like if somebody's listening to this conversation, and they're not already immediately familiar with it as clearly as the three of us are. What are some of the big ticket items that are causing single women to feel so alienated?

Katie Gaddini  23:31

So one of them is structural ideals of normative womanhood, which includes being straight, being white, being middle to upper class. And so that's on a very structural level, like if you're already not fitting in those boxes, just by the way you've been born, then you're already going to be on a on a on a backfoot and a marginalized place. And then there's the sort of interior elements. So if your personality is one that is ambitious, that's considered feisty, or a word that's often used as intimidating, then that's going to also create marginalization. If you're not married, if you haven't had children married to a man, then that's going to be another level of it. And then there are other sort of smaller, not smaller, but other additional factors that can come into play. So if you identify as a feminist and feminism is really important to you, that can be slot you into this troublesome category, even if the pastor's are on paper, okay with feminism, if you desire church leadership, if you feel called to church leadership, and maybe your church endorses it on a doctrinal level, but you're really pushing for it, and you don't fit the aforementioned categories, then you're going to feel marginalized as well. So there are some those are kind of the main key ones that I came across. I know other research has found I found that women who identify as LGBTQ also really experienced that marginalization and tend to leave. I personally didn't come across women identifying in that way, they all at least told me they were straight. But I do want to flag that that's another key element that's come up elsewhere with other research.

Jonathan Puddle  25:18

And and what's the, what's the level of, of research on on this? Like? You just put a few years into this, right?

Katie Gaddini  25:28

Yeah, about eight. About eight years, you know, plus a lifetime, depending on how you want to calculate it. I would say a lot of research has been done on women and Christianity, but not with an unmarried population. So previous research, you know, this was this was a really popular area of study in the early 2000s, in the 90s, looking at women in different Christian denominations, including Catholicism, and women's marginalization or their struggles for equality, but it was mostly with married women or women who were in leadership positions already, and we're experiencing pushback. My study specifically is looking at the unmarried group, which you know, continues to grow and can you know, women tend to get married later. And the specific struggles they face because they're not married is they're already not needing some of these key markers. They're already on the backfoot.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  26:26

I thought it was so interesting, when you even called out so many different social media influencers, and you kind of like listed like, so what does that look like? Because it's not just like you would say, even about the London church, it wasn't that they were up at the front talking about women not being in leadership, or you know, purity culture, like sexual roles, and all of that. But it's just this pervasive culture that it seeps in from every part. So when you have so many of your female Christian influencers, who are white, who are like heteronormative, who, you know, often are very, like able bodied, like just what it all looks like in the way they live their life, and they're married, and they have this sort of like parenting style. It's very it is, it's just very interesting how the messaging runs deep on so many levels.

Katie Gaddini  27:09

Absolutely. And I use the term the ideal woman, because it comes across in so many insidious forms, you know, I originally started this project by looking at books that were geared towards Christian women. And even when you read some of the descriptions and books of people don't mention her Lily, white skin, or her soft blonde hair, you know, the way that whiteness is associated with the ideal, whether it's the cover of the book, the stock image that's on there, or the little description, that's, that's like plugged in, or, as you say, the social media influencers, it's happening on so many different levels, to construct and reinforce that this is what the ideal is. Yes.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  27:53

Like preach.

Jonathan Puddle  27:54

And Tryphena I'm sorry, can I just say personally, like, for all the ways we've spread these whiteness messages, and for you having to grow up in this mess?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  28:05

Thanks. So I'm Thank you. It's I'm still figuring it out. Thanks, Jonathan.

Jonathan Puddle  28:12

Katie, on this topic, page, 144, it was very, very helpful for me. I'm going to read from you in a second. But it was helpful because, you know, having untangled a lot of theological things, we grew up in purity culture, too, and wrestling through all of that stuff. And having chatted about it sometimes with my parents or with with pastors and folks in the next generation up, trying to understand exactly how this happened, right. And often, it'll come down to but we never preached that we never taught you that we never like, show me the one book that's that, that tells you to hate yourself with that kind of strong language. But it's not the one thing right. So you wrote here on page 144. In the regarding the ideal woman. More importantly, these social media posts dynamically interact with other discursive material, such as magazine articles, sermons, purity books, and Bible study texts, these discourse of parts link with one another and build the seemingly coherent figure of an ideal woman. And then you quoted Giselle Pollack, to say that basically these these visions acquire the authority of the of the obvious. And that's, that's exactly what happens, what it means to be an ideal Christian woman has simply become so obvious. And I, and that's obviously what we're talking about here. But I feel like the exact same principle is what's taken place in terms of building a theology of an angry retributive God, a God that you have to perform for, you know, these kinds of things. It wasn't the one thing it was this whole interactive discoarse, and you end up with something that simply obvious. And how can then you even begin to fight it, when it's just the water that you grew up in.

Katie Gaddini  30:11

But that can make it even more confusing as to I don't know why I feel marginalized, or I don't even know why I have this image of God, but I do. Because it's so pervasive. So it's even harder to pinpoint or untangle or understand or make sense of, and, as you say, even harder to kind of push against when it's ubiquitous.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  30:33

And then it comes back to you somehow, you're the one who's problematic because you have a distorted view of God, or you're struggling with your sexuality, or whatever it is, right?

Katie Gaddini  30:44

Yeah.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  30:44

I just thought when you were talking, Jonathan, I just had a thought, because we were talking about how whiteness has become so pervasive in our faith in our faith community, and how even our theology plays out. And I loved how, Katie, you talked about the if then model how so much of purity culture was okay, if you do this, then this will happen. And so how many times have we had a pastor stand up and say, Well, I waited and look at this hot wife, my, like God has given me and you're like, what is happening, but just even this, it like, it had to be very linear. If you do this, like a, like one plus two, will equal three. And I feel like we came out of like, the industrial revolution, or like, you know, the scientific revolution. With this very, we need to be very linear in our thinking. And I think like, in my understanding, it's been a very white male way of thinking, right? Like, I think of how many leadership podcasts are like, don't come into my office with a problem. Unless you already have three solutions in your mind, like, don't come and just talk about it, we're not going to shoot the shit. But if I think of, you know, Indian culture, even like ancient Greece, you sort of think of like the Agora where, you know, all the philosophers sat around and talk, they just talked, there wasn't an endpoint in law in mind, there wasn't a linear thought. And out of that birthed democracy, out of that came like the Hippocratic oath, and there was something so powerful about it not having to be linear. But I think we have made our faith so linear, and we have taken the gravity out of it and trivialized it. And made it what?

Katie Gaddini  32:09

Yeah, I think that that's an excellent point, I think it shows how religion is so dependent and malleable, depending on the culture in which it is springing up, and how what you describe if the if then, or the solution focused, or the meritocracy focused version of Christianity is very much aligned with Western white capitalist society, and follows that logic, very much. So which doesn't need to be there. Because it's not inherently there. It's a product of the culture that it's interacting with.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  32:45

I agree with you again, we're so affected by the systems and structures around us right in our face. Okay, so I have a question that because you talk a lot about reconstructing and how are you like, so many of these women are grown, like are raised in these environments, where this is the messaging, and so you talked about how some somebody had to leave because they were just tired, or they had to reconstruct it for their own cells? So this might be too personal, how have you reconstructed for yourself? Like, what does that look like? Because I would imagine it's an ongoing process.

Katie Gaddini  33:15

Yeah, it is an ongoing process. And even the course of doing this research, you know, I went through many different phases of, I want to burn down the whole institution, and I want to really destroy it. And I'm angry, too. I miss it. And I want to re engage with it in some way. But I don't know how and and now I can honestly say I'm at a place of peace, where I don't operate on either extreme. And I have tremendous respect for people that are still engaged closely with Christian community or are pastoring or are working towards a more inclusive and equitable version of Christianity. And I also feel peace in where I'm at, of not being regularly involved in a church community, but still highly invested in terms of the work I do and the personal relationships I foster and my own personal practices and being able to do that from the outside, if you want to call it that. So I'd say you know, over the last nine years of doing this project altogether, it's been a tremendously transformative time for me and I've come out the other side to a place of real peace and contentment.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  34:29

I love that I'm like, I'm so grateful you can walk in peace in where you're at right now. That's really beautiful.

Jonathan Puddle  34:35

I completely agree. I'm glad to hear that. Can you talk a little bit more about what where people, where other women are ending up and use the language of like liminal spaces and kind of neither in nor out, are the other, you know, kind of distinctives to pain points and good things to that, that liminal space.

Katie Gaddini  34:55

It was hard for me to know when to cut off the research or when to cut off the book. Because obviously, these women's lives are continuing. And I continue to know what's going on in their lives. And I had to pick a point of saying the story ends here, for the book or for the research, and their stories continue. And there isn't a one size fits all. So some of the women that I engaged with, and was really close to, for many years, continue to go to church and to struggle with it, and to want to change it and to feel tired and frustrated, but to also feel really called to stick in there. And others are not involved at all anymore at some don't even call themselves a Christian anymore. Whereas you know, when I met them, eight years ago, they were pursuing ordination. So there's been a massive change in their own personal life. A lot of it depends on what other personal life events have intervened, if they've met somebody, if they haven't, where they've moved, what the has happened to them, health wise, there's been a lot of intervening factors. But there's so many gradients of involvement with the Christian community, and changes in their personal faith, and the two don't always align with each other.

Jonathan Puddle  36:06

Yeah, makes sense.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  36:07

Absolutely.

Katie Gaddini  36:08

Meaning that the faith can really, you know, someone's faith can really stay in tact. And they can still call themselves a Christian if they're really close to God, but not be involved in church whatsoever. And others are really involved in church, but are questioning their faith deeply. So there isn't always a alignment between the two, which I'm sure you know,

Jonathan Puddle  36:27

Definitely, I'd love to actually dig a little deeper onto this here. My wife and I left church for 10 years. Today, we are pastors and a small, messy little thing. And it's, it's wonderful and hard and all the things. And I wasn't I was on a church on Sunday, and I was in a bad place, just my mental health has been all over the map. And our foster daughter has been keeping us up late. And I was in church on Sunday. And I just had this, this sense that I was being carried up to the altar, and I couldn't bring myself there. And I thought I'd like I feel like the guy whose friends are pulling off the tiles of the roof, to lower him through the roof to meet with Jesus because he can't get there himself. And I thought to myself, if if church is not a place that's safe, or a place where either you're learning to love, or you're being lovingly carried up to the altar, that you don't have strength to get to yourself, then get out like, I have no business encouraging anyone to find a church that's not, you know, like that. And I think the other aspect of that is perhaps actual, like fostering divine encounter. And you quote, quite a few of your sources, kind of saying the same thing, that it's that it's God that I'm drawn to. And God is here, and the church is kind of this other thing. But you don't really explore that mystical aspect at all in the book. Is there a reason for that? Or do you have false?

Katie Gaddini  38:11

Uses? Yeah, this is something I really struggled with. And I was at an academic conference last week, and the question came up, we were all sociologists of religion. And the question came up, which was basically like, what do you do with God? In your research? What do you how do you make sense of it? him or her? It, them? How do you deal with the mystical elements that present itself when you're studying religion, because it comes up all the time. And, you know, as scholars were often trained to, like, let's make sense of it, let's analyze it, what's going on psychologically for them. And I didn't want to do that. Because I think that takes away from the individual's experience of God and the mystical. And because I don't think we can explain it. So I was really caught in this place of this scholarly approach to untangling it all and explaining it all away. And this more human approach, you could say, of letting it stand on its own. And as one of my writing teacher said, like writing God, just writing and straight, writing it very straight of this was the experience. And this was their experience with healings or miracles. And I'm not going to untangle it or try to make sense of it. I'm going to let it stand on its own and let the reader do that work.

Jonathan Puddle  39:23

That's great. Thank you. I like that.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  39:25

I can really appreciate that. Yeah, I think actually, you just made it so relatable, because even as you were sharing stories that they were coming home from like a Holy Spirit weekend and countered Holy Spirit, it felt transformed, but are still wrestling with the system and structure that they're in. I'm like, Oh, that is very relatable. It's just It's human. No, I appreciate it. You writing it straight?

Katie Gaddini  39:47

And I think the reality of it is, as you mentioned, Jonathan, that church is often a space where you can encounter God in a more profound way. Certainly you can outside of church, but if that is a space that he ate, holes enables that deep connection, then that is going to be hugely beneficial and a huge draw for people to continue in church, even if their relationship with God is continuing outside of that space.

Jonathan Puddle  40:14

Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  40:18

I will just be honest, I think that's a big part of my faith journey. Right? There's still like, there's the communal, mystical part of the corporate gathering. Anyways, that's a whole other conversation. Jonathan, I feel like you're in deep thoughts.

Jonathan Puddle  40:37

Yeah, yeah, I'm just, I'm just sitting with all this. Katie, I really appreciate the things that you've brought together for this. And like, my heart is just moved and grieved. You know, that people, women in particular, but but human people are desperately looking for belonging, for friendship, for transformation, for encounter with the divine. If you're sitting here as a pastor at, whether or not you're male or not, want more could you want from the people that are turning up to your church, they literally want to be there and be transformed and bring their full selves. And but but then five years, 10 years, or less or more, the fruit is for many, but especially, you know, for single women. And I've seen the the various intersections that you've highlighted, the fruit is bad. And not just, oh, it didn't fit. But, you know, mental health collapse, suicidal ideation really bad. Right? We've been touching on this with I don't know if you if you've crossed paths with Bridget Eileen Rivera and some of her work on, on what it means to be LGBTQ in the church. And the research there is damning, that young, especially young people, typically young people who approached the church, their risk of suicide decreases, unless they identify with the LGBTQ in some way, in which case, their risk of suicide measurably increases. And, and this is obviously not strictly what we're talking about. But it just it deeply troubled me, as I guess it should, obviously, but I just, I'm just sat here with it, that, that the church, in so many places, is not bringing life to so many people and so many categories of people. It's instead bringing death, destruction, self doubt. And I'm just like, what, what the actual f I'm grieved and troubled? And again, not surprised, like, I'm not sitting here and naively going oh, wow, I didn't know about this. I've witnessed it. I've seen it. I've been a part of it. You know, to my shame. What do you think is gonna happen? Yeah. But put your sit in the futurists chair for a minute, like what's happening? What's going to happen to the church in the next five or 10 years? If we don't figure this out? Which every indication is that we're not going to figure it out?

Katie Gaddini  43:32

I think there is going to be a breaking point. I think what we're seeing in the US and the UK is I mean, the numbers of Christians, and especially evangelicals continues to go down. The some preliminary research shows the group most likely to leave are single women, or women in general, that's the group that historically has sat in the pews kept the church a flow in terms of the functioning, but it also in terms of the numbers. And I think we're going to consent to the new to see a decline until there is change. And I think when the decline gets steep enough and serious enough, there will be eyes opening and an actual desire to what can we do to fix this outside of trendy branding and catchy events that will alert people in what can we do to systemically shift things so that we don't completely dissolve? That's my hope. I think it's gonna have to get worse before it gets better. But I do think that, you know, a lot of church leaders don't care about any of these things. But I think they will care when the numbers continue to go down. And Christianity is even more under threat.

Jonathan Puddle  44:48

Yet, right like I mean, we already know that the vast majority of the congregation sitting there in front of us is women. And, and yet, the vast majority of people sitting up on the standing up on the stage are men like If I died at one of your people's comments that was like, there's too much white dick on stage, or something.

Katie Gaddini  45:12

Yeah, she's one of my pet. She always keeps it real

Jonathan Puddle  45:14

surreal. She's my favorite.

Katie Gaddini  45:16

Yeah, she's a lot of favorites. I mean, I also have to say, you know, I study Christianity and politics now, in the US and I have done a bit in the UK as well. And I think the influence of right and far right politics on Christianity is going to also put so much pressure on the faith. And it's also going to bring its own sort of splintering effect, that will encourage a breaking point as well and encourage systemic shift as well. So I think it's going to come from multiple angles.

Jonathan Puddle  45:48

Yeah, for sure. To to the woman who is listening, who has kind of been on the fence, and feels like there's been a lot of pain and a lot of hurt, but it's everything she knows. But there's something tweaking in her as she's listening to this, what would you say?

Katie Gaddini  46:06

I'd say you're not alone. I wrote this book for you. That was us do all this writing workshops. And it's like, Who's your ideal reader? My ideal woman reader is that woman who is involved in a church who feels like they're the only one experiencing these things? It's questioning things. And my hope is to show them that they're not the only one. Who is feeling that way.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  46:31

I think that's beautiful. Because there was a lot of us who are bone dead? Tired? And yeah, I think you talked about the power of so many people just want to be known. And to to know, you're not alone, and your experience is not isolated. That's the community right there. That is powerful. So thank you. So I don't know if it's public, but you had told us that you are pregnant? And what does that look like for you then now preparing to embark on this journey of motherhood? I'm not sure if you already have a child or children in your life. So that is a whole new space. And then so what? Because we talked about how so much of our messaging was not just stuff that was said, but like stuff that we picked up through osmosis? So I'm just curious not to put pressure on you not to like, you know, maybe think isn't the you haven't, but is there stuff that you have thought through of what you want to impart to this child, male or female,

Katie Gaddini  47:29

I want them to have a expansive understanding of God, I think the understanding of God and the spiritual realm that I grew up with was very narrow, unnecessarily so and I want to bring expansiveness into their life to understand that God takes different forms, can be encountered in different ways, comes through in different ways. And to have that sort of curiosity and openness that I didn't have.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  48:06

Well, thank you, one that is beautiful. I think that is so powerful, to build that platform for children to learn from and to grow and to develop on their own. And to I think that's what you did for us and in the way that you wrote this book, and you will, where you allowed your curiosity to guide you. And just even the way you shifted your questions to make it more inclusive to what was coming up. So thank you. I know when my own heart reading it, I was just I told you earlier, I was raging, but also I was just it was, it was very empowering to see it all written down and laid out in the way you did. So thank you, for spending time with us for spending the last eight years putting this together and just sharing your life. With all of us.

Katie Gaddini  48:46

You're very welcome. I'm glad it resonated with you. And one thing I asked a cousin that I'm very close with who grew up in a similar background, when I started writing the book, what would you want me to write about? And she said, I want to outsource my experience to you, and you didn't make sense of it for me. I want you to write it down for me and explain it to me what just what has happened the last 25 years because I cannot really make sense of it. So I thought that was a really helpful charge to be given. To untangle not just her experience, but obviously hers was very similar to many of the women I met, and try to explicate it in a way that at least presents a story of what's going on.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  49:32

No, it's beautiful. And I think even in the preface, you talked about how writing this is your journey of rest. And so was it cathartic for you? Did you feel like you were able to make sense of your story and hers?

Katie Gaddini  49:43

Absolutely, absolutely. I think it's there's a real sense of peace that comes when you for me when I'm able to write but when I'm also able to make sense of something that doesn't just feel these contradictions and these confused The messages, but that actually puts them on paper and doesn't resolve the tension or doesn't resolve the contradiction, but at least has it written out.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  50:09

That I feel like that's just an example of how to live, so thank you. So good.

Katie Gaddini  50:14

Just doing my best.

Jonathan Puddle  50:17

Katie, what's what's, what's your next project?

Katie Gaddini  50:19

So about two years ago, right before the 2020 presidential election in the US, I started a project looking at Evangelicals and Trump, Trump supporters.

Jonathan Puddle  50:28

Are they out there?

Katie Gaddini  50:31

This was another puzzle for me, though, you know, why would Christians vote for Trump? Why would Christian women vote for Trump when he seemingly to some view goes against a lot of Christian values and a lot of women, women in general? So that sort of question paradox contradiction has been driving this research on so I've finished two years of another three years on the project. I'm actually shifting my focus now just to look at women who are evangelical white women who support right wing politics.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  51:06

I am very fascinated to watch for that.

Katie Gaddini  51:11

I have an I actually I have an infographic I just got back from the designer that's like three pages summarizes the last two years. I can send it to you if you want so you can see kind of some hot takes from what I found so far.

Jonathan Puddle  51:23

Brilliant. Awesome, Katie. Thank you so much. Friends, Dr. Katie Gaddini. I'll post links in the shownotes obviously and more details to come. But thank you for sharing your time with us today.

Katie Gaddini  51:34

Thank you both.

Jonathan Puddle  51:37

Friends, go check the show notes for links to her book, The Struggle to Stay: Why Single Evangelical Women Are Leaving the Church. That infographic that she mentioned is also in the post at JonathanPuddle.com. You'll find links to Katie's website, katiegaddini.com. You'll also find her on Instagram and elsewhere as @DrKatieGaddini. Friends last month, I mentioned that I'd lost a number of patrons and my book sales were down, just as these economic conditions are impacting other folks they've been impacting my supporters, which obviously impacts me and my ability to support my family. I asked if you were in a position to support me that you might consider that. Friends, I have been overwhelmed by the support. I want to give him just a shout out to David, Jemina, Brad, Jody, Sophie, Mads, Christine, Nancy, Mark, Tanya, Andrew, and Molly, who have all come on as patrons in the last month, whether supporting monthly or annually. Friends, that support means so much to me, it would really helpful to have another another 10 or so patrons. Whether you're giving $3 a month, or $15, whatever you're able to give really goes a long way to supporting me in this work. Please do not feel any pressure if you're not able, if you're feeling the bite the same way many of us are, then know that I'm praying for you. I'm praying for all of us to be sustained through this difficult time. But if you are in a place where you could spare, you can head to patreon.com/jonathanpuddle or you can go to jonathanpuddle.com/support if you'd rather give a one time gift donation. As well as you'll find my books, you can order those directly for me, as well as Amazon. Friends this has been such a delight. We have got some really exciting interviews coming up. Check back in two weeks for the B-side to this, where Tryphena and I kept the microphone rolling and riff deep on these themes that Katie brought up. So if you want to really know what we're thinking that is available very shortly the B-side to this. I can't wait to share our next guest. It is it is fire. You guys are gonna have your socks blown off, trust me. Share this with a friend. Tell your friends to go check out Dr. Katie Gaddini's work, let them get in on this. Maybe we can start changing the direction of this ship and create spaces where everyone can thrive and be celebrated. Alright my friends. Grace and peace too you. Much love. We'll be back soon.