#128-B: Unpacking Kevin Sweeney on mystics + mushrooms

This here’s a B-Side, folks! As Tryphena and I walked back through our interview with Kevin Sweeney about mystics, mushrooms and the power of letting go, we found ourselves camped out discussing our value and worth when we’re not productive. Tryphena asks, if a flower shines with no one to see its beauty, is it still beautiful? We shared some dark night of the soul stories and challenged each other to live present, right here and now, in this cosmos, rather than escape.

For maximum impact, make sure you listen to our source episode, #128: Mystics, mushrooms and the power of letting go (with Kevin Sweeney).

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Transcription

Jonathan Puddle  00:00

Hey friends, welcome back to The Puddcast with me Jonathan Puddle and with my friend Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon. This is the B-side for episode 128, with Kevin Sweeney. If you have not listened to that, I'd recommend you go back and listen to that first, and then come right back here where Tryphena and I unpack some of the ways that Kevin's words and thoughts and spirit impacted us. And here we are also unpacking Tryphena and I's first, first go co-hosting together. So this.. I think, Kevin was very kind and gracious. He was a great guinea pig for us. Because he was so inclusive, like you said earlier.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  00:44

He really was so inclusive, and he just like he held his space and held space for both of us. I love that, like off the bat. He was like, so Tryphena What do you think? And I'm like, Oh, way to draw me out.

Jonathan Puddle  00:55

Yeah

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  00:56

it was very, very sweet.

Jonathan Puddle  00:57

Yes, I paid him to do... No, I didn't. Okay, so we, we didn't, I threw this out there in the in the episode. But this really has stuck with me. And in fact, I kind of preached about it a bit at church. This thing that he says earlier in the book that, you know, okay, you're mad about the thing that's in front of you, you're upset, like, in my case, I'm upset about the reality is my foster daughter has been exposed to up  set. Here's what I said to my church, I'm upset for the realities of what my foster daughter have been exposed to. I'm upset that I'm left to pick up the pieces and upset that it falls to me, which is me being very, like selfishly authentic right here. Right? Like, this isn't a bad moment. I'm upset at the inconveniences in my life. But what what Kevin said is really the truth that you uncover, the more you lean into the mystic journey. You're not you're not as upset about those face value things as you are upset that you live in a universe with these kinds of rules.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  02:12

Yeah

Jonathan Puddle  02:14

It's like, the anger and the sense of injustice that we face, at the very real, tangible injustice is in front of us can actually be elevated, and I think they need to be elevated. Individually. I think we're all it's wise that we all go on this journey individually, to elevate that injustice to actually the level of cosmic betrayal that that we got injected into this world through no choice of our own. That works like this hard pass God. Reality sucks.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  02:57

It really does.

Jonathan Puddle  03:00

And yet, it's also full of goodness, and life. And somehow, there's a Savior, who was also injected actually, willingly into this reality. Who has been redeeming and making all things new. But as long as I remain fixated on the surface level, anger and source of my frustration and injustice, I, I can stay there for a long time. And I can do some good there, but but there's this elevation, and even my elevation slash deepening, to say, actually, I'm more upset that I live in a universe that allows for pain like this. And if I'm honest about that, then I can do some deep work on me, and sit and encounter God in the midst of that kind of honesty, like what gives like, what the actual F. And I like I'm not an activist. So in that kind of, in that kind of justice context. I can't speak authoritatively. But I but I listen to folks like Christina Cleveland and others who are saying, to do this work sustainably, you have to also do your own deep work.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  04:28

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  04:31

And in my case, parenting sustainably and fostering sustainably and pastoring and just being a person who cares. It's been it was a really, really helpful thing for me in the last two weeks, as I said at the beginning of the show, it grabbed me because I had been really struggling to be present. And again, I just thought I was so annoyed about the painful realities, but he hit me hit me square between the eyes. No, actually really the reason that I'm really struggling to be present is that I don't want to live in this cosmos. And so when I read that, and I was able to take a really deep breath, or 10 Go, okay. This is just pain.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  05:16

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  05:16

I do live in this cosmos. And there's also beauty here. And I can find hope here. And I can only find hope here, I can't find hope and some future tripping ultimate reality, where I can pretend all these things don't exist, and only find it here and this one. So okay, I'll lean back in to God in the present moment in. However that looks right. And for me, I've, it's often in nature in the trees, and I just look at the things around me. And I'm like, Okay, God is holding this table together, this chair, the atoms that the cotton of my denim. God is all through me and around me and all of existence pulsates with his life. That's also part of this cosmos. Okay, well, I can, I can lean into that. So that was like, that was my first big takeaway from his book. And I think that's only like in the second chapter, kind of once your pilot of the prologue. And he's dropped these little hints about future mushroom tripping stories. But yeah, I was like, Okay, this is a mistake. This guy, this guy actually has done that the time investment, silence and solitude because you don't say those kinds of things about reality. Unless, unless you've gone and got your ticket stamp.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  06:49

I like that way of looking at it. No, like, not, no, I completely agree. And I think we've talked a little bit about this about like, the dark night of the soul. But there's something there's a depth and a weight to which he seemed to walk in, because he's walked through the dark nights of the soul. And I think in some ways, even as you're saying, like, some of those dark nights of the soul play out on a daily basis, when we're just like, grappling with the reality of the universe and the place that we live in. And something I found so profound, even as he was talking about, like his liberation theology, and like, which I just I find him so fascinating as like a male who's white studying like Black Theology. He was very aware of his social location, but because of that, he kind of understands the messiness of it, right? Like one of the things that we've been talking a lot about, just at home, and even with our churches, what does it look like to unpack our backpack? What does it look like to understand why we believe what we believe why we react in the way we react? Why am I having a level 10 reaction to a level two thing, and so often, it's because of our past traumas or past beliefs. And I think I know, it sounds like I'm going on a tangent, but I actually feel like they're so connected. Because they all speak to the brokenness of our reality that we're grappling with, and then trying to live out because at the end of the day, we are still accountable for how we show up in the space that we are. But yeah, I love like that language of the pain and the sorrow of being about just the pain in the world that we're in.

Jonathan Puddle  07:31

Yeah

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  07:33

because   that is heavy. And I think even just on like a little level, I've had to mute so many of my news feeds right now, with just the way the world looks around as because it is painful, and it is really heavy. I look at like your foster daughter, and like what she's had to walk through. Like, when you spend too much time thinking about it, it gets really heavy. Not that you want to walk away from that. And I think that's where the transformation happens when you're actually able to really sit in the messiness of it.

Jonathan Puddle  09:04

Yes. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I find the trap for me is always to to help too much right? Like the Enneagram to I will heal you with my love. I will just love everybody so well. And I will wrap my arms around everybody so much that I can just solve all the problems. I can be your hero baby. I can kiss away the pay. No, I can't turns out and that's another part of their harsh reality. I don't like to be honest about that. I can't solve the problems. And that Oh, yeah. So he digs deeper into that realm ugh gross, horrible book he's written it's good I'm being sarcastic. About this thing of like I don't want to admit that I can't solve all the problems, because that would call into question my value. And so he said, the thing is never the thing. And we kind of like we talk about it, there's a lot of different ways that we talk about that, right? Like, the thing is never the thing, it's not really the fight that you're having with your spouse. It's that disconnect. So he's like for you personally, in terms of even your ego battle. And I love that you brought up the trauma just then because as you the ego, and trauma survival, are rarely tightly bound. And as you lean into a contemplative practice, and move to a space where you can start to observe the ego, and hopefully pay compassionate attention to the wants and needs of the ego. That brings up all the pain that the ego carries. And all the attempts, the ego has been trying to keep you alive. And in there is this issue of value. And so it's like, I don't want to admit that I can't love people back to life. Because if I can't do that, then what is my value? Because I've put so much value in subconsciously into that thing. And so you know, all of these things, we don't ask ourselves the question, we don't sit in silence and solitude because it's too provocative to our own deep spaces. And man, I deal with this every single day as like, a stay at home dad slash, self employed writer, slash, whatever I am. Every single day, I have to give myself permission to not just bust my balls and busyness from dawn to dusk. Like today, every single day, I sit on the couch. And I go, Jonathan, part of what you do requires bandwidth. And sitting on  this couch right now for five minutes, and doing nothing is valuable. And you have value. And this does not call into question, your intrinsic worth and value as a human being. And I mean, this is daily and sometimes hour by hour. And I imagine that some of my readers are like, whoa, you need to read this book called you are enough because clearly that message has not so deep enough into your heart. Slayers out or No?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  13:08

Listen, I feel that in my bones, like I feel so much impostor syndrome showing up in spaces like these are just even the same stay at home parent, beginning to figure out what else I'm doing right now in this season. And feeling like it's not enough. And if I'm if I sit down for a moment, I'm like, I know my partner, my friends, like they're all hustling in different ways. But you are right that it takes a different level of bandwidth. I laugh though, you are enough because last week, I was just done and like, I can't get it all done. And I feel like I'm so busy, but I don't know what I'm doing. And I'm like, you know, falling apart. And to me that's like even like listening to him talk. I was like oh, so the things that are beautiful to me or bring me life or I'm learning about God or I smiled because I saw something funny today like it didn't. It may not be productive. But it's one I'm actually on this earth to do, to like the light, but it's such a mind F where it goes against all of my conditioning.  So I pulled out You Are Enough. That was my like Touchstone habit and I'm like to go back and remember that I am enough as I am. But one of the things I found so beautiful about like this conversation about his book was even the part where he quoted Rumi Rumi, about the dance that happens inside of you just for you, right? Because I've been reflecting a little bit on like, when Jesus talks about generosity and talks about you know, not have it not worrying because he takes cares, takes care of the flowers in the field. Nobody sees the flowers in the field. Like if I'm hiking, I'm hiking on the path I'm not hiking off the beaten path to the flowers that are there. And but yet, they are as valuable even though no one witnesses their beauty.

Jonathan Puddle  15:11

Yes

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  15:11

my experience needs to be productive, even when you talk about, like, as an Enneagram two like needing to love people. Well, I think that's so beautiful and you love people well, so like so well, like using the word well, too much here. But I have like, I can only speak about myself in my own life, because I'm also in an Enneagram two  end up in a place where I'm doing that, because I'm doing it for God. So I'm going to hang out with you. And I'm going to ask you all the questions, and I'm going to like prophesy over you and speak life over your life, because I'm good Christian. And that's what I'm supposed to do. And it's not like, sometimes it's coming from overflow. And sometimes it's coming out of love. I mean, it's always coming from a area of love, but I definitely have to check myself because I can leave conversation and give myself a little check, check mark, like, Oh, I like I was Jesus hands and feet today. And that it's, it's problematic, where my worth is coming. From that?

Jonathan Puddle  16:12

Yeah, so I've heard and this is true, this this infuriates me and I don't like it. But I heard someone recently say, you know, when you leave those experiences, and you're tempted to give yourself that, that checkbox and you feel like you've just done something so alive and so on brand for you, for your soul. That's when you are deep in it, and the ego and the shadow of your personality. Feel that fulfillment, and I'm like, no F off. I want to feel like I'm doing fulfilling work such because I spent my whole life contorting myself to other people's definitions of it. So yeah, okay, there's, there's layers of that.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  16:52

Yeah. Ah

Jonathan Puddle  16:53

 So yeah, two things. Henry Nouwen says, when we offer cure, without care, it's dehumanizing. So, that's a thing. And then relating somewhat to that and coming back to the flowers. Dang, I'm going to sit with this because it's like you just said, essentially, in my head, this is what my head heard you say: You know, it's like if the tree falls in the forest, and no one's there to hear does it make a sound right? If a if a flower shines in a field and no one's there to gaze on its beauty is it actually beautiful? Yeah, we would say of course, it is like, if your soul sitting there on the couch contemplates the mysteries, and no one's there to appreciate that has it still worshipped God? Absolutely. Thomas Merton, (coming back to Merton) I forget the exact words I would run upstairs and grab it. But that's way too nerdy. Basically is like, all a tree has to do, to give full glory to its creator, and be everything it was ever made to be, is just bloody stand there in a field and be a tree.  Like, that's it. Its a tree and standing there being a tree is everything. And and so we carry the imago dei and just breathing and being alive. Is a chorus of praise in a dark world. Remind me of these words. You know, even two hours from now will be great.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  18:52

I'll text you. By the way, Jonathan. Oh, it's, it's such a struggle for me to practically live that out. Like I was, I felt like, last week, I was journaling this out. And literally, it was it was around the same concept of just the more that I embrace the Imago Dei on me, like the more that I am, like, myself and all of my Tryphena glory, the more I'm actually like Christ. And that like that flips, everything that I have thought for so long on its head, and I struggle with that.  Because Tryphena is messy, and she's loud and she's too much or like these are all like things that all like, you know, carry into my spaces. And I don't even know where I'm going with this. Just like oh, now that I'm sitting with it, it just feels really intense. It just feels heavy. And then even like we were just talking about, unpacking everything behind It now this is the universal that I look at. So why am I struggling with this? Why am I specifically as like an Indian Canadian woman? Like, why is productivity so important? It's like a first generation immigrant in a nation that was colonized. And so our worth came from works, and then the way that evangelicalism got played out there. Anyways, there's so many things there. But it's like, I think that's where I get stuck to, because I'm like, if I really start unpacking this, there is no stopping it

Jonathan Puddle  20:30

yeah, there's no stopping it. Oh, and at the bottom of the stack, is do you have worth?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  20:35

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  20:37

Is there any worth left for you? But the answer is yes. 

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  20:42

I feel like it was at the end of the book, where he talked about how nothing is in nothing, I'm gonna butcher this, but you can't deconstruct there's nothing that you can't deconstruct, except for the in destructive love. And I was like, Oh, that kind of gave me hope. Even on this journey of my case, like, the more that I'm unpacking various aspects of my life at the bottom of it is love, which is God.

Jonathan Puddle  21:11

Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly it. That's exactly it. So. So one of the other things you said that I feel like is a relevant segue here, from what you just said, is this whole thing about how you don't need to go away on retreat, you don't need to go to another conference, you don't need another spiritual experience, because you can lean into the presence and the reality of cosmic love right here right now.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  21:42

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  21:43

And that's totally true. Except when it isn't, like, just like, pragmatically speaking. Sometimes you do need to get on that retreat. Which I'm sure you would agree, like, oh, yeah, that's like, sometimes bad in terms of bandwidth. I've got to get out of dodge, in order to get back to what I know is true. And reappropriate it.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  22:10

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  22:11

And then I can bring it back. Right. Like, like, sometimes you need a, you need a personal trainer, at the gym, you need out of your house, where you've got all the free weights that you could be using any time that you know, you're not. And you've got your own body, you've got all the resistance exercises you could be doing. But you're not as sometimes forcing yourself to the gym and paying somebody to kick your butt helps. It removes some of that. I don't know, overhead. I called my therapist the other day, and I was like, I've been using all the tools. I'm doing really great. But right now, I don't have the bandwidth to walk myself through what I'm dealing with. So any any user to walk me through it, I know the tools. I know I could do this myself if I had more resources and capacity, but I don't. And he's like, great. That's what we're here for. And $125 Later, we feeling way better about my Thank You, Jesus.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  23:22

Yes. Well, you when you were talking about the gym, I was I was where my mind went to therapy. I'm like, not that I think we critically need therapists and psychologists in our life. But there are often times where I'm like, I could sit here and do the work and journal it out myself. But I don't even have the energy to start with where the questions are. So this is what what I found interesting, because you're right. I love how he talked about you're not needing the retreat. But sometimes we do we do need to, you know, pay the trainer pay the therapist, I think sometimes for me, I need the exercise class, like there's something as an extrovert needing corporate community. But I do feel like we're in this really pivotal moment in the world of the church, where especially coming out of COVID I'm so tired talking about COVID, but especially coming out of it. We've either gone one of two ways, we've realized, well, we don't need the church and we don't need God. And there was nothing It was changing in my life or two like I thought the presence lived in the building. But really the presence, like I get to carry spirit with me every day. And so I thought it was just interesting, because I was going to ask about like, how does this play out in your pastoral ministry? And I was like, oh, but your church is actually closing, which felt really profound to me, because I don't know the whole story there. And I'm sure COVID played a part of that. But I'm like it also means that you I'm assuming have done a great job of imparting to individuals their own spiritual practices. I don't know.

Jonathan Puddle  24:55

Yeah. I mean, yeah, I don't know I but I think Yeah, I mean, to that point, I was so blessed. And like, again, agitated and bless him and agitated, you know, provocative way, by his, his lack of need to convince his people have these things and the fact that they didn't care about any of the books he read, I'm just like, Oh, you're describing my life, except you're an Enneagram. Five, who doesn't care anyway? And I really care. You know, this whole thing of detachment of like, not needing the people like offering them everything, loving them, but not needing them. Yes. Which we do, I think clearly see modeled in light in Jesus's life, he lays it all out. But he does not chase a single person down the street now. And I have chased a lot. And, and as soon as I hear anybody talk about, like, detachment, I might get out of my soul, as we know, I need it. But, uh, but of course, my value into question. Because part of the reason I love people is to prove myself as necessary in our life, so they can never leave. Ugh. The worst.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  26:20

It all comes back to value and identity. Like, at the bottom of this, you're right, I wrote it down where he talked about Jesus never chased anyone. And what stuck out to me was Jesus never closed his heart to anyone. Because that's the other side. I'm like, Oh, okay. So I'm going to try and love you well, but this is not going well. And I just, I need to protect myself. And so all my walls and stonewalling, you know,

Jonathan Puddle  26:45

What does an Enneagram two look like when they're trying to ask and put boundaries in place? When we try this stuff out, and we're really bad at it. We look like an unhealthy eight. I'm burning you all down here, my walls, and I will pour oil on you from the top of my tower. Like, and that's it. And I've done this. I'm like, Yeah, I'm just I'm just having boundaries. Actually, you're just being an asshole. And you don't know how to like not.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  27:12

That actually, like, get that explains a lot of me trying to figure out boundaries.

Jonathan Puddle  27:18

It's messy for us.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  27:19

Yeah. So I think this really stuck out to me. So like, just gut level honest. Before in a six year old. One of them is a lot like me. And so I struggle with that because they represent all of my insecurities. And, you know, it's, it's lovely. And so anyways, mornings are rough. One morning, this week was particularly rough, and I like allowed this child to go to school. And I didn't like properly say goodbye. And I was like, I have now I am trying to close my heart to a child. But this is me trying to figure out like, little Try is freaking out. She's triggered. She has so much going on. She's like curled up in a corner. And like, adult Try is like, okay, so you have to protect yourself now. But how do you like so anyways, I find this with parenting. As just a mind Fudge because I like, yeah, I have no words, Jonathan, because this is where I struggle.

Jonathan Puddle  28:31

Yeah, it's real.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  28:33

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  28:34

Yeah, thanks for sharing that. It's real. Israel. You know, tan... tangential, but but really helpful in all of this. I had my friend Lisa Colon DeLay on the show. Her book is really, really good in this space. Like, if you're listening to this, and you're like, Okay, so basically, these guys are riffing on mystical contemplation and the impacts of trauma. That's exactly what Lisa's book is. What's it called now? "The Wild Land Within?" I think.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  28:51

Write this down. Okay

Jonathan Puddle  29:05

"Wildland Within". And so here's a woman who is grown up Hispanic kind of white presenting, but that has a rich cultural heritage. That is where she from? I don't remember. And I'm gonna say it wrong. She's Puerto Rican, perhaps, forgive me, Lisa. And and so she's written this and she's done all this contemplative work and read all the contemplative masters, like we're talking about here, Merton and many, many others and and Rumi and is and has ended up at this space that like, for her own self realized how provocative all of this was into her pain and trauma. And very few of those masters because they're often writing up to this 60s and 70s and And then centuries and millennia before, had none of the trauma tools and awareness and brain and body and body keeps the score that we do have now. And so she's drawn all this together, and basically been like, here's how to dive into contemplation. And then here's how to deal with all the horrible things you find there. And here's how to not like, drive your car off a cliff because you all you want to do is get closer to God and the silence and stillness and what you found and found there was like darkness and pain and fear. So she's done that really well. And it from the ground up. It's cross cultural intersectional she's like, if I can if I can quote a a womanist theologian on this, I won't quote the regular white guys. I've done the work so well. Like it's it's a brilliant, brilliant book. The wild lands, The Wildland Within or The Wildlands Within Lisa Colon Delay.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  30:55

I will have to order it tonight. That sounds like what my heart need.

Jonathan Puddle  30:59

it's Good. You'd dig it?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  31:01

Okay.

Jonathan Puddle  31:03

As would many of you. friends, Thanks for Thanks for being here for another besides Tryphena thank you for your thoughts.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  31:13

Thank you for having me on. Sharing where you're at.

Jonathan Puddle  31:18

This is good. Friends, I hope it's been good for you grace and peace. Lean into the silence. Lean into the contemplation. Be honest that you live in this cosmos. Because it's only here in this cosmos that you will find hope and peace and joy. Because as I told our church on Sunday, there is the Savior who was born into a human body and grew up and had friends made friends experienced betrayal. Felt what it was like to be abandoned, and even died. And so every single part of the human experience Jesus scooped up in his arms to bring them to his father to redeem them all. So the whole thing.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  32:11

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  32:12

Gets to somehow be a part of the journey to make all things new.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  32:20

Hmm.

Jonathan Puddle  32:22

So may you find friends, hope and peace and new life springing up? Even? And especially here?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  32:33

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  32:35

Thanks for listening friends. This has been a Puddcast B-side check your podcast app or jonathanpuddle.com for new main episodes, which are numbered and usually have interviews of guests, and then check a week or two later for B-side with me and Tryphena and maybe some other friends. And if you want to support the show, you can become a patron at patreon.com/jonathanpuddle.