#136: Flexible strength—compassionate survival (with Aundi Kolber)

Therapist (and my good friend) Aundi Kolber returns to the show to discuss her brand new book, Strong Like Water: Finding the Freedom, Safety, and Compassion to Move through Hard Things—and Experience True Flourishing. Our conversation revolves around reframing many things we’ve seen as weaknesses, even sins, as forms of strength that enabled us to survive hard things. We reflected on the particular shame we feel after having put in years of healing work in therapy, only to feel like we fall apart again. Aundi explained how resilience has been weaponized at times, and she honours the fact that we should never have had to be this strong. This is a powerful and intimate conversation that I think will bring real hope to you. Enjoy.

Order Strong like Water: Finding the Freedom, Safety, and Compassion to Move through Hard Things—and Experience True Flourishing by Aundi Kolber
Learn more about Aundi’s work at aundikolber.com
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Register for my one-day You Are Enough seminars in Finland,  May 6 & May 13 2023.

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Check out my trauma-informed 30-day devotional, You Are Enough: Learning to Love Yourself the Way God Loves You.

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Transcription

Aundi Kolber  00:00

How your body is showing up is information about the level of safety that you are perceiving that you have, the level of support. And just generally speaking, safety has to come before growth, because if we push growth before safety, the risk of of traumatization, retraumatization is very high. And particularly for folks who already have a history of unresolved trauma, because in a way, they've always been out of their comfort zone. In the context of understanding well, what is the purpose of a trauma response? It is to allow us to keep going. And so if we can start there, understanding that God is the giver of good gifts, that God is a God that ultimately Jesus, you know, came that we might have life and have it to the full... well, how are we going to have life to the full if we can't even survive?

Jonathan Puddle  01:02

Hey, friends, welcome back to The Puddcast with me Jonathan Puddle and my co-host Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon. We are excited to bring you Episode 136, my good friend Aundi Kolber returns to the show to talk all about her new message Strong Like Water: Finding the Freedom, Safety and Compassion to Move Through Hard Things and Experience True Flourishing. If you've been following the show for a while, you'll know that Aundi's work has been how to sum it up between Aundi and Brad Jersak they probably have been the two most influential people in my thought, and my spiritual life and my embodied practice of living in the last 10 years. It's no overstatement to say that I'm really indebted to Aundi for bringing her fullness to this hurt, gentle approach and the way that she frames and explains trauma. And how we heal from trauma, I think is genuinely unique in its helpfulness and its approachability. There's a lot of great people doing great trauma work. But Aundi's for me, resonates at a particular frequency that I guess I needed. And it speaks to me at a very deep and profound level. And so this is all about reframing some of the things that we've seen as weakness, as strength, and seeing what God gave us as tools to survive this life, and how to move along a continuum of growth, so that we can flourish in this life. So we recorded this back in November, there's a little bit of time delay subject matter. But it's kind of funny, because it was a rough day, we recorded it. And today or this week, I'm in the middle of March Break and so I have the kids at home and chaos around me. So it feels like no time has passed. Anyway, please welcome Aundi Kolber back to the show.

Jonathan Puddle  03:12

Okay, so we are both kind of in a mood. And words like rage and exhaustion come to mind. And so I thought we should just get right into it. And just be super honest.

Aundi Kolber  03:25

Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. I honor that. It's a Wednesday, it's a very Wednesday, Wednesday, in our house, you got one sick child, we've had lots of lots of this in our house. So I'm with you.

Jonathan Puddle  03:40

Aundi thank you so much for being yourself. And like being yourself in public, I feel like is this weird thing that some of us are navigating, and I feel like you're doing that with such integrity. Having finally got to spend some time in the presence of you and your wonderful family. And, and now I feel like reading Strong Like Water. You know, there's something, you know, a first book kind of carves out a space. The second, like the second album that comes out for a band, there's like, there's like this whole thing of like, oh, well, we're going to play in the lane that we have carved out, or are we going to go and do something different. And I feel like there's almost it's almost more revealing of who someone is and the choices they make around the second outing. I just feel feel like the gift of your life to all of us. And I want to honor that. Before I might say anything about how much I'm frustrated by some of the messages on Facebook.

Aundi Kolber  04:51

Oh, well, I'm excited for this conversation. But thank you for just honoring that and yeah, I've done my best to bring who I am. In the overflow of my life, you know of, rather than it be a striving for something that doesn't feel that's just abstract, that's just not tangible. I do my best in my work to, you know, not only pull from research and things like that, but also my experience with clients, and really also my own lived experience. And that feels really important to that integrity piece that I really unfortunate in many ways, unfortunately, I've had to live this, this message, which is both it's, you know, Glennon Doyle's term is brutiful. Beautiful and brutal. And, and that's, and that's a little bit what I would say, a lot of this journey has been like,

Jonathan Puddle  05:50

Yes, well, that makes sense. That resonates. So this book is delightful. And I'm like, so intrigued about a number of things, let's just say that this feels like really Integris to your message for a while, kind of this idea that all the things going on in us can be called strength. Right, all the terms we might use, maladaptive coping, which have some validity, but like, but that also, we can use strength as a framework for looking at everything that's happening. I sort of like as I've been like, getting into the flow of your writing in this book, being like, Okay, write write, Aundi has actually been saying this for a couple of years, hasn't she? I think, what's the birth of this? And where's kind of like the progression from Try Softer to, like, almost an inversion of terms, right, like, Try Softer, stop white knuckling but also everything has strength?

Aundi Kolber  06:57

Hmm. Yeah, well, gosh, so much to say here. And you're right, this has been in my message for a long time. And in many ways, it was actually even the message and Try Softer. And what I would say, you know, a lot of times, as I've talked about Try Softer, I've shared it from the lens of like, I've been writing this book my whole life. And I think similarly, Strong Like Water is a book, I've been writing my whole life, in a way. I mean, I wasn't ready to write it right, like four years ago, five years ago, I needed to write Try Softer first, partly because my experience is that I needed. And not just I would say it is largely rooted in part of my own experience, but also with clients. And just generally speaking, safety has to come before growth. Because if we push growth before safety, the risk of traumatization retraumatization is very high. And particularly for folks who already have a history of unresolved trauma, because, in a way, they've always been out of their comfort zone. It's not like, ooh, take yourself out of your comfort zone. It's like, When are the few times you have been in your comfort zone? Right? That's what that's the inverse. So I think for me Try Softer was the message because I am a person who spent most of my life out of, or on the very edge of my comfort zone. It wasn't like, oh, wow, things have been so easy. It's, oh, wow, almost, like many things have been hard. Most things have been very hard. Most things have pushed you in ways that were not always good for you. And so the message of Strong Like Water for me has been this birthing. For me, one of the things I've said is that, it's like almost like of course Strong, Like Water came out of Try Softer. Because when we are that gentle, when we are that tender when we attend, what happens is, is that we birth, a different kind of strength. I mean, that is just what happens. And so for me, this is just my description. This is my journey, my witnessing, and not just mine. I mean, also, you know, I share composite stories of clients. I share research based information and faith integration as well. But in many ways, for me, this is just a witnessing, of a reality that's been happening for a long time. This isn't a new reality, this is naming what's already existed. And so Try Softer. What so one of the things I will say is that I noticed in a lot of the you know, the I've had a lot of conversations in the last couple of years about Try Softer I've done. I've heard from a lot of people and that has been a great privilege. But a theme that I noticed in a subset of folks was attendancy, you know in Try Softer I called this, I often talked about white knuckling. And that's really, you know, we're going outside of our window of tolerance, it might be partially using or fully using a trauma response. And I sensed in people like the sense of binary like, oh, white knuckling, bad, Try Softer, is good. And there is some level of truth to that, like the goal is yes, we want to move towards Try Softer. But what I felt and what has been true for me the whole time, is that we white knuckle, and we go to trauma responses, and we go to stress responses, because our body perceives that we need to. And so for me, it's like, I just had this sense, in so many spheres of my life that I wanted to be like, oh, boy, oh, boy, hold on, everybody hold on. This is not about shaming how you survived. Like, in fact, for us to really heal, I believe it's necessary. Part of the turning with compassion is naming and recognizing the validity, and at times the necessity of what I call in Strong Like Water, situational strength. And situational strength. Really, what I'm saying there is that it's really a survival response, it's survival energy in our body. And sometimes that might be a stress response, like, and that is maybe more true when it can sort of happen, and then it's able to dissipate, or it's becomes a trauma response when it never when it gets stuck in our bodies. And the thing that needs the survival response doesn't get to be processed. And so all that to say, it was like this, this for me, it was like this exciting, like, oh, I can't wait to unpack this more, because I didn't get to fully, fully say everything I wanted to say in Try Softer. And it's like, for me, when I wrote this book, I was thinking about people like me. And like so many folks, I've heard from who, who have spent a lot of time shaming themselves, and have spent a lot of time thinking like, gosh, if I could just cross that finish line, rather than us gratefully recognizing, you know, God gave us I believe God gave us this, this, these physiological ways that we respond to, to pain to threat. And, and there is a sense in which we will always need that. And in the journey of healing is being able to recognize why we need that. And that there may be some times when we need it again. And doing what we can to be able to give our body the support we need. So we can respond in the ways that are most appropriate for for really what we're facing.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  13:05

I feel like I can sit and listen to you talk for hours. I'm like, oh my goodness, you just like your, your entire countenance. But oh my goodness, when you talk about you writing it your entire life, that makes so much sense because you emanate your messaging, and it's really beautiful and powerful, and also very healing. Even before you got on Jonathan and I were kind of having the conversation of where I'm gonna speak for myself, but where we were, we were feeling and so the exhaustion of the fall and going into the winter and Christmas and just the last three years and the heaviness of it all right. And I know in my own life, I think what gets so frustrating to me is am I go I've done the work I've done like the trauma therapy, I've done all the like, I've built healthy, healthy, quote unquote coping mechanisms, I should be in a good place. So then when all shit breaks loose in the world, and all of my quote unquote, healthy coping mechanisms fall apart. There's so much shame and guilt for how I feel like it's playing it. So for you to be reframing that conversation of well, actually, no, that is strength in your body that has kept you alive. And it's allowed you to survive. And it's not linear, like you don't stop there. But there's Yeah, there was just there's so much power in the way you speak about it. So thank you.

Aundi Kolber  14:48

Thank you so much. Yeah, it really, I love talking about this, which is, which is good. Because when you write a book, I mean even the hours I've spent already and I'm still fair early early in my launching, it's, it's, it's a lot we talk, I spent a lot of time on this subject. And I'm glad to, because I just find so many of us even folks exactly like you say, who've been doing their work, who it's not like they're new to therapy, they're not new to the concept of internal work, things like that. And yet, it's so easy to get really binary, like, oh, gosh, when I cross the finish line, then I won't have shame anymore about the ways that my body adapts. And this message, I think, you know, is this, I hope, this sort of destigmatizing way of saying, how your body is showing up is information about the level of safety that you are perceiving that you have the level of support. And, and as we learn in the in the book, I use the term compassionate resourcing, and compassionate resourcing, Dr. Ariel Schwartz talks about resourcing as anything that communicates safety to our body in the present moment. And I really love her definition. Because what with that compassionate resourcing, as we sometimes through our communities, sometimes through our families, and then sometimes through our faith, but also sometimes in our own inner experience, as we sort of harness this, these resources, what we're literally doing is we are changing the felt experience of safety in our body. As that happens, our body is wired to to actually have that sort of upward spiral of oh, like, I feel seen by that person, oh, maybe I can go on a walk. And you know what, maybe I'll try to do you know, that one, that one like meditation, that is usually helpful, I will try to do that. Like, there's a sense in which, as we gain the safety and support we need, our body in our brain is wired to look for more resources. And so this, this is the work of Strong Like Water, right, is that there is a flow, there is an inherent flow to how we are created. And it's, it's, it's less of a like, ooh, when you're in situational strength, you're really failing. And, you know, when you're an integrated strength, wow, look how great you are. It's, it's not that. It's saying, oh, wow, you are really resourced and able to come from that grounded solid place, perhaps when you're in that integrated strength. And if you're in situational strength, oh, wow, you are really under resourced, and your body is perceiving that you need a lot more safety and support to be able to navigate what you're facing.

Jonathan Puddle  18:08

Yes, yes. Can you walk us through the the kind of the framework of the flow of strength, as someone who's quite visual and systematic, I really, really appreciate it, it clicked for me in a big way. I wonder if you can just kind of walk the listener through the different kinds of strength?

Aundi Kolber  18:26

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I've already named that situational strength, which is really on the flow of strength. It's really survival energy. And so in the book, I even give lots of examples of the way the survival energy may appear. So like, real, most people might be aware of things like fight or flight, or fawning, which kind of can look a little bit like people pleasing, he might be aware of things like freezing or dissociation. I take that a little bit further to say if you are fully in survival energy, it can be that really what we're talking about is that your body is like whatever I got to do, to navigate this situation I will do so it's like, that's where things like hyper vigilance, things like intense tenacity, things like even I talk about really, really significant sarcasm. And I want to delineate that from humor. Because I think humor is important, but things like that might keep us protected in a way in a moment where we really don't feel safe. So that survival energy, I think the big takeaway is that, if you for some reason, feel like a situation is life or death, especially when it's not, there is a good chance that you are accessing survival energy. Now on that flow of strength, and again, it's sort of I sort of conceptualize it as being very fluid. That as we, as we have that compassionate resourcing available to us, we will move towards in the middle what I call transitional strength. And transitional strength, I conceptualize as a sense of, you know, for folks who are aware of like the window of tolerance, for example, this is where I would say, we are beginning to get back into that window where we maybe have a foot in a place of like, I can handle a little bit of this. Dan Siegel uses the language of being able to think about thinking. So what this might look like, is an ability to kind of be like, well, I am aware that when I am around that person, my heart is really starting to race and I feel a sense of urgency. Like, that would be an example of like, Oh, I'm beginning, I'm beginning to access more of that transitional strength. So it's not that the situational strength is fully dissipated. But I also have a little bit of space. And I'm not necessarily just living from that situational strength, again, as we continue to resource and, and part of that might even be some of those resources might be feeling our feelings, self compassion, there's lots of things as those continue to move, we will work towards that integrated strength. And I conceptualize that as sort of this solidified sense of like, I can be fully present. There is a there is a shalom-ness, there's a sense of wholeness available, there is an awareness that I sort of have what I need; that I am, yeah, that there is maybe a sense of completeness, to maybe I had a big emotion, I became aware of the big emotion, I moved through the big emotion, and now the emotion has moved through. And so ideally, in this work, I imagine it like that. It's almost like a cycle that it may move, you may do this a couple times a day, multiple times a day. But for folks who have more unresolved trauma, they may spend a little more time in situational and transitional strength, having less access right now, to that integrated strength. And my hope is, is that this framework gives folks sort of different entryways in on how we move along, in the way that serves us and serves the life that we have towards, towards more accessibility of integrated strength.

Jonathan Puddle  22:56

So I feel like 2019 was a year of integrative strength for me. I've been doing a lot of work, and I've had the luxury of a space carved out for that, you know, out of that came, You Are Enough. And then 2020 2021 2022 pandemic, and then we became foster parents, to a girl with some really, really severe complex trauma. And I feel like whiplash in my self. And in my, in how I show up in the world, I'm reading your descriptions of these things. And I'm like, Oh, I have distant memories of this, of integrated strength. And I feel like I'm, like, whipping back and forth. Kind of, like the circumstances of my life. I think I can live I think I've developed enough of the, enough of the resources and abilities and whatever words you want to use, remove a few of the stressors in my life. And and I can stay in a place of awareness of capacity. I have that show lameness I can feel it's kind of like, okay, like a level a level five hard thing. I have strength for that. A level six hard thing. I'm getting a little more transitional. I feel like I've been partly had thrown upon me and partly I chose, like level 10 hard things for like the last three years. And this sense of shame is really hard. Half the time that I sit down with my therapist, he's just reminding me, Jonathan, you're doing really hard things. And like often that's like I'm like, Oh, yeah. So I don't have a question. I'm thankful for this. This gives me helpful language. But I guess maybe maybe there's a question like, like for people who, who with the shame is  strong where they were they don't have maybe people telling them, Hey, you're you're doing hard things like, remember, you're doing hard things. Or just like, who are they even stuck in that sense of like, this is my fault? Because I wrestle with that, like, I'm just like, Jonathan, why can't you handle this? You've spent so much money and energy and time skilling up, I feel incompetent at dealing with hard things a lot of the time. And there's a sense of confusion and shame that comes with that.

Aundi Kolber  25:43

Yeah, I mean, I, I just want to first normalize. I mean, not only I know, uou've shared some of your personal experiences, but also on a collective level, what has been happening in our world? I mean, I think we need to be mindful not to forget context. Context matters, right. And I mean, again, and this is why I think I hope it comes through in the book, because I really were, I really tried to have to have it come through to say that if we are feeling like we're needing to access that situational strength, it is not about lack. It's not, it's not, it's your body responding. And sometimes the response is about the past, and sometimes their responses about the past and the present. And sometimes their responses about only the present. It's all on the table. And all of that through the lens of this work is important. It's all important. And it's all saying that it's you're worthy of support the whole way through, there's never a time, there's never a time that your body that God didn't design your body to show up on your behalf, doing its best for you. Now, that doesn't mean we're perfect. And that doesn't mean the ways that we respond are always are perfect, either. And it doesn't mean that we don't mess up or sometimes harm people in that process. Yes, that can be true. But our body acts on our behalf for our safety and survival. I mean, that is the first priority. And so I just would say for folks who are feeling like, oh, man, when do I ever experienced that integrated strength, I want to almost pull back and say, I want to to like take it out of the big categories of like, Man, I really spent a month in integrated strength. And I'll just share personally like I'm like, oh, an hour goes in integrated strength, oh, just touched on some situational strength back into transitional and back into integrated, right, because as a complex trauma survivor, I have many, many invitations into situational strength. Many, the work for me is to turn with compassion. Right? That's a little that's Try Softer language, but it's also Strong Like Water language. And this is the connection of this work is that compassion makes us the most strong compassion. Ultimately, I know even myself, I've at times talked about, like, I get tired of the word resilience, because I've found it to be weaponized. And yet, in its truest form, in the best possible form. Things like compassion and self compassion, do birth, the truest resilience, or resilience that's not God willing, a weaponized resilience because it allows for the honoring of the pain and honoring of the need, in the midst of the pain. And to me, that's the difference, right? When something is weaponized. It's like, oh, hey, could you just put on a smiley face because it's making me uncomfortable. So I need you to get strong again. Versus Holy moly. You should have never, ever had to be so strong. And let's just honor that for as long as we need. And as you're ready. Let's make sure you have what you need. So we can keep going. And that's the difference.

Jonathan Puddle  29:18

That's great.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  29:20

I love that I love the language of compassion. Can I ask? So then, you've talked about in your own journey of being a complex trauma survivor, what has that looked like to offer yourself compassion, even in the last three years, where you're going from past traumas to present trauma, and back again, however, that plays out, right.

Aundi Kolber  29:43

Yeah, I mean, so I, I have also done a lot, a lot of my own work. You know, I've been a therapist for almost 15 years and I would say that really mirrors a lot of my own journey. recovery. And I think one of the myths that I try to dispel in the work that I do is that it's about Well, first of all, for complex trauma survivors, it's complex. And the especially, and not to say other trauma is not, but it can be more clear, like, if you've been in a car accident, and you go to trauma therapy for that, you're gonna really kind of work to target that. But if you're like, for example, in complex trauma from childhood, there could be 1000s of experiences that have created templates in your body that you actually carry around with you. Now, for me, my journey has been, you know, I talk about things like re-parenting. In Try Software, I talk about this language of compassionate attention, which is, really, I think of it and if you put that into the Strong Like Water framework, a lot of that's in the transitional strength place, it's a lot of living from a turning towards pain that still exists with compassion. And from a neurobiology standpoint, that allows us to connect, and, and sort of work with the pain. And our bodies are designed as we're able, and as we perceive that we have safety, to metabolize that pain. And we can create new templates about how we exist in the world. And so for me, it's all of that. It's all of that work. And it's and it's the millions, right, if it took millions of moments to create the harm, then it takes a millions of moments to undo it. And so I have absolutely also experienced times where I'm like, wow, like, holy moly, I have experienced like a shift. Like for me, I'm like, oh, that's, that feels like a miracle. Like, who I am at 39 years old, Holy, moly, 22 year old Aundi would never, she wouldn't even she wouldn't even have been able to imagine this, this person this life. And the pain that I experienced in my life, some of that some of those templates, those parts continue to exist in me. And so when something presents itself, what's different, is not always perfectly, but I have the capacity to move towards myself, from a place of compassion, to sort of say, like, what do you need? Like, and in my adult self? Am I do I have all the tools I need? Or do I need to reach out to a friend, or a therapist, or my husband or other people in my community, because sometimes I can't always do that completely on my own. And that's totally okay. And so I'll just also say, for me, what I would say one of the reasons why resourcing in this book is such a big piece is because I have found it to be a literal game changer for not only myself, but also my clients. Because if someone grew up in lots of experiences of feeling unsafe, part of the repair is creating a lot of experience of experiences of safety. Now, that is repair. So even though we're not doing what is usually thought of as classic trauma work, we're creating these reparative experiences of, oh, here's a place where I feel safe. Here's a time I feel happy. Here's a time when I was in pain, and I took care of myself, here's something that I enjoy. Here's beauty that I let myself be with for as long as I wanted to. All of that. That's my journey, that instead of shaming my younger self, as much as possible, it's like, Oh, sweetheart, come right here, baby. Let's go do the things we know to do. That bring us home that bring us back that allow us to be fully integrated, and able to show up as the fullness of who I am.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  34:13

I feel like that is a picture of the gospel, to show up as a fully integrated whole person. And like listening to you unpack how that plays out in your own life. Just felt like a holy moment for me. I'm like, Oh, that feels really beautiful. Thank you

Jonathan Puddle  34:37

I agree completely. But I'm also thinking like, oftentimes the ways that we've tried to survive, we were we were told not that not not only these things are not strengthened that they are explicitly sin. And I think that so much of my programming is you know, I had this, I tell story. I had a session yesterday with my therapist. This Yesterday months ago, when we when I was at your house in October, I made some passing comment about you having a great week and things going so well with people that I was meeting that it was almost provoked provoking parts of me that are provoking a belief that I have that things must always be hard. And you were like, well, that's a part. And I was kind of like, Aundi you were just on the couch right now. So, get out of here. Anyway, I'm like, No, you're absolutely right. So you know, I do a lot of I.F.S. with my therapist. And so okay, that's a great trailhead for exactly. So I went and did the did a bunch of work. And we had this, this fascinating experience where we encountered this part that essentially had taken on the role of wing clipper, because it was sort of like, we don't want Jonathan to fly too close to the sun. There are these things that happened, where Jonathan got really burned these relationships where Jonathan thought were really reciprocal, and then someone kind of turned on him. And this part was actually extremely reticent to even do the work. It was basically like, I can see the damage that I'm doing to him, and it kills me. But this is the only tool I have in my belt. And I don't even want to be here. I don't even want to be doing this. But it's I do because I don't want this harm to happen to Jonathan again. So we're working through that were were blessing that part where unburdening that it was obviously, you know, really interesting. process? Well, eventually, it was like, yeah, so it was really unburdened, and it was like, I'm gonna go over here, into my workshop. Now, now that I don't know, now that I no longer have to have to do this work. I would like to go and, and just hang out in my workshop and be creative. And so I'm like, alright, that's, that's awesome. And my therapist said, Jonathan, do you think maybe we could have a ceremony for this part, and maybe give it something. And this whole kind of like award giving ceremony began to play out in my mind's eye where we gave this, this part of trophy. And, and it was profound, profoundly impactful in my internal framework. And I was thinking with, you know, my rational parts of my brain at the same time, that's so weird, that we would give a trophy to this thing, that 10 years ago, that the Christian healing tools that I had, would have begun with. Now let's repent, and apologize to God for believing a lie, blah, blah, blah, and for doing blah, blah, blah. And the lens that we had was that these are sinful. And it's really like your your work has been really instrumental in my life and shifting that. But who gave you permission? Where did this come from in you that you get to call the strength and look theologically like other things?

Aundi Kolber  38:08

Yeah, I mean, I think that, for me, really where this began, you know, from a faith integrative perspective, was recognizing that Okay, so what? For example, let's say let's just take it back to let's say, someone is experiencing trauma, what would happen if they didn't have a trauma response? What would happen to their bodies, like, in the absence of that, right, so starting there, there's a few different things on a real simple level, let's say someone was crossing the street, they didn't have the capacity to access their neuroception, which is the ability to, you know, sort of like almost subconsciously perceive threat and shift and adapt states through your autonomic nervous system, the chances of things like being hit by a car, getting eaten by animals, like very sort of almost basic, like if something's about to, you know, you're on a trail and an a snake just bites you because you don't have the reflexes, you don't have the capacity to assess threat. So first of all, wow, that would be a pretty big bummer, right? So we don't have that.

Jonathan Puddle  39:29

We'd be dead, over and over again.

Aundi Kolber  39:31

Again, and again, we wouldn't really be here. Another example is like, let's say, let's take a kiddo who has, you know, is being physically or psychologically abused. And let's say they didn't have the capacity to go in, for example, into like a dissociation. The ramifications of that are really significant like that could potentially cause that person to essentially no longer function. So, and and could lead to, again, probably earlier deaths earlier, like, like just in a very basic way. Like that's maybe what that would lead to. And so I share that because in my opinion, I think through the lens of in James, when it talks about every good and perfect gift is from above, right? And to me in the context of understanding Well, what is the purpose of a trauma response? It is to allow us to keep going. That's the purpose, right? And so if we can start there, understanding that God is the giver of of good gifts, that God is a God that ultimately Jesus, you know, came that we might have life and have it to the full, well, how are we going to have life to the full if we can't even survive? Right? So we have to at least begin there. And I would say from there, then we have to be able to bring in and of course, this requires some integration. But we have to be able to bring in some just some understanding of neurobiology. Well, what happens to trauma when it is not processed through our bodies? Well, it gets stuck. Our lower brain is where we are living from if we have trauma. So there's sort of a building approach to understanding from a real basic level, what is even that purpose? So I think that probably most people would agree that it's not sin, to not die, if you're about to get hit from a car, right? So if we can, if we can honor the purpose of those things, and then how they get skewed, when they are not when they are not allowed and able to move through our bodies in the ways that they need to, things can go sideways. And so I do think that can we sin when we are in situational strength? Sure. Absolutely. Does. Is it inherently sinful to be in situational strength? No, I don't I don't think so. I believe it's a gift from God. Right. So I think we have to be able to hold both. And we have to be able to say, certainly, we can cause harm. We certainly can, if we've caused harm, do we need to repent? Yes, we do. But that is a secondary issue to the main thing, which is that this is a part of what is in designed in our body, from a God who knows what we need. And so I think that would be an end to your question of I know you're saying it, and just like who gave me the authority? Well, I think for me, 15 years have lived experienced a licensed professional counselor, went to seminary, and just a lot of research and lived experience with clients. So I feel pretty equipped to talk about this.

Jonathan Puddle  42:54

Yeah, amen. So.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  42:57

And you see that, like, in your work, I was talking to a girlfriend this morning, who's a psychotherapist, and I was sharing a paragraph of part of George's story that you had written. And she was so she was talking about how in all of her and so much of her research, she doesn't often seeing, like polyvagal theory, mixed with disassociation mixed with like talking about your parts. And so just to actually because you and then you put your your theology on that. And because you have actually lived all of this out in your own body and then gone to seminary, you've been able to pull from so many different resources. And I think it's why it's more of a robust, holistic, thought process that actually is able to create change. It's not like, Okay, we're going to just do this one thing, we're going to point out one bad thing, and we're going to fix that, but really, we can actually turn. I don't know, I keep going back to compassion, we get to actually come back to yourself with compassion.

Aundi Kolber  43:51

Yeah. No, I think that's, I appreciate that. And I think that, you know, part of why I am so passionate about this is that a lot of what I write about is actually, I mean, this is is how I do therapy. And I found for me, particularly when I was writing, Try Softer, but I found the same thing with Strong Like Water is that I, I have needed with my clients to have a very eclectic and flexible toolkit. And I personally in my own journey of healing have needed to have an eclectic, eclectic and flexible toolkit. Because again, the more complex that trauma, the more flexible we need to be with the ability to meet the many varying needs that come up. And you know, one other to bridge that question again with with what Jonathan said, you know, I think part of the reason why keep faith as being a central part is attachment, and secure attachment is so such a vital, vital resource in healing. And to me that is so central to who Jesus is in was to the experience of God with us. I mean, that is not only a theological reality, that is an attachment statement. That is I am coming to be with you, right? Like when a kiddo is hurting, if I was like five miles away, and I was like, Hey, I love you. But I'll be over here. Right? How would that affect that kiddo? While they might somehow get that message, but the parent that comes, and as with their kiddo, as they move through hard, signed me up for that every single time when we talk about healing. And so for me, one of the things that keeps me super connected to the faith tradition of Christianity, and Jesus is the witness. Is the attachment reality of God with us. I mean, when we talk about compassionate resourcing, there are so many great resources. And for me, God with us, is such a profound resource that it's almost like I can't not talk about that.

Jonathan Puddle  46:29

Yes, amen.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  46:31

There's something so profound about that. Because I think so much of what the Christian faith messaging has been in the past, has been about our inherent sinful nature, or inherent evilness. So anything that you think you do you feel is inherently wrong. So when you're talking about, oh, my goodness, what was the first strength? I know, it's not linear, but

Aundi Kolber  46:53

situational,

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  46:55

thank you. This is this is where I'm at today. But even you're talking about situational strength. So much of it would have is, at least in my head, the way I've been taught theologically, it's like, oh, well, you're functioning out of your own strength, and you're not functioning and God's strength. And so hence, these quote unquote, unhealthy practices have been formed. So it would when you talk about attachment, and I think back to so much of that inherent sinful nature, that messaging, like that creates so much broken attachment from such a young age, right, and the trauma that just gets played out. Because of that. So when you like, I just, it's been a very long time since I've been in a conversation where I'm so profoundly impacted that I'm like, Oh, I don't even know what words are coming out of my mouth. So that's where I'm at. Yeah,

Jonathan Puddle  47:42

Do you work with clients, regarding their attachment to God, do you have people who, whose ideal break that they that needs to be repaired?

Aundi Kolber  47:51

Absolutely, absolutely. All the time. And the way that and you'll probably notice this in Strong Like Water, one of the things I really try to do, as I work with folks around potentially, like, their attachment experience with God is similar to other work is that it's very consent based. And it's very assessing, what level of resource does this feel like it is to you right now. And the reason why I phrase it that way, is, especially as someone who is a body centered, you know, really pulls from a lot of body centered therapy is that we can cognitively be like, you know, this is my beliefs about God. But often, our body will tell us maybe a truer, or maybe more grounded reality, about how we are actually experiencing something. So I think that's true with attachment as well. So for example, if someone's wanting to integrate their faith, I think that's great. But some times what we have to actually begin with is even recognizing, does this feel like a resource? And, and then really giving them the, a lot of choice and autonomy about how we integrate our experience of God with us into the work we do. And the reason I think that's really important is because if we, I believe, especially from a trauma informed perspective, is that if someone has an area of wounding, and you're just like, hey, here's how you should believe it about that. All of our situational strength will probably just like, whoop, rise up, and they might even tell you Great, okay, okay, that sounds good. But the likelihood of that actually being helpful is low. So, you know, I think it's important to really give folks this sort of really almost like an easing into, okay, when when in your life has faith been a resource? How in your life has that been a resource? What's a memory that you experience that as a time when that has felt like a security or a secure attachment. And so it's actually similar to a lot of other work that I do we build it very thoughtfully, and with great care. And then we also, as we do that we keep our ears out and our eyes out for where are the places where there's been harm. And to, and this is where as a therapist, I have to be really mindful, because I have to be careful not to, you know, ethically, I cannot project my beliefs on my clients. That's a that's an ethical consideration. So I have to always be in a collaborative stance with folks about what feels helpful to them. How is that helpful? How can I help you utilize the resources that already exist, so that they can continue to be helpful to you?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  51:02

I love that language of autonomy and agency, like it's a very like you're co creating together, like your healing is not a passive journey. Right? So we, your client gets to be as invested in their healing and make choices as do you. I was in a therapy session couple months ago. And we were doing some inner child work. And so I was sitting with like, little Tryphena. And my counselor was like, Well, do you want to invite Jesus into this picture? I was like, no, I don't need a white man to help me. And I'm like, Oh, my goodness, because logical Tryphena was like, okay, that's not Jesus. That is not God. But little Tryphena was having a whole, like, emotional meltdown over this. And I really appreciated her giving me the agency about whether Jesus was helpful in that moment. And not just being like, well know what you're supposed to invite Jesus into this moment. So I just love like the agency over that.

Aundi Kolber  52:02

Yeah. And I think what I would just add that for me, even when so I think there's a distinction to where it's like, it's really important for me not to impose my beliefs on folks, and who I am. I bring who I am, whether I explicitly name my faith or not, because there are definitely lots I work with lots of non Christians who faith is not a consideration, but who I am, is who I am. And part of my work is that I believe that God is the author, author of healing, and that, for example, when we're in situational strength, it's not that God's not with us, it's that maybe we can't see that God's with us. Yeah. So that doesn't change God's posture. That doesn't change God's kindness. God doesn't change, we just maybe can't see it. And I believe God has profound compassion towards that, because when we are in our survival brain, we literally cannot see it. And so I think there's all these little considerations where, because I think someone might hear that and be like, oh, man, you're not inviting Jesus in, right. And it's like, I want to honor that. I want to honor that, that has been a sort of a messaging. And what I would just say is, you know, I talk about this in Strong Like Water that I really try to give folks the permission, even in the even in the practices to say, you know, if it feels like a resource to you, that's a language I use a lot. You can, for example, invite Jesus or you can integrate faith in this space in the way that feels good to you. But the choice there, like is acknowledging, you know, some people really want to enter to bring Jesus and right now that doesn't feel safe to their body, and that could actually be harmful to them. And because God is an author of healing, that just simply doesn't make sense. Right? That if it's going to cause harm, I think that there, there has to be a recognition of the pacing and the honoring of the person themselves and what they need.

Jonathan Puddle  54:13

Oh, man, that's so rich. Yeah. Like my brain is already going to Job and thinking about like, Why does God takes so long in the narrative to turn up? And could it be that the God that Job knew would not have been a helpful resource? The process that Job goes through there is a purifying of his understanding of God when God does turn up God is is is a resource by that point. That's I mean, that's, that could be studied or refuted either way. And it just that's where my brain went in terms of Yeah, because I It seems like God submits to us. But that's been my experience. Like as if this isn't If this isn't healing, like I've, I mean, I've certainly experienced divine love that isn't personified in a human being. That comes in all kinds of forms that feel safe, that find the chink in the armor in a in an in a consenting way. Of course I want this, I just can't take it when it looks like that.

Aundi Kolber  55:24

That's so good. And I Yeah, and I think for us, it's like we have such a narrow we often have such a narrow view of God and healing, right? And it's like, can God not ministered to you through the sunset? Can God not minister to you and us through care of others? Can God not minister to us in so many ways, really. Resourcing to me is the goodness of God. And that's one of the things I talk about in Strong Like Water, there is a there is a resurrection that is happening every time. If for me, I almost think of it like, every time we fully experience a resource, there is a resurrection. And there is a sense of glimmer of even integrated strength, even if it's only a glimmer, it's like, oh, okay, there you are. Okay, there's the hope, okay, there's something and to me, I can't help but see the fingerprints of God, all over that all over that design, that it's goodness, that brings us back every single time. And, to me, I think that that is a really important piece of the puzzle around like, it's, again, we can't, we don't always have the eyes to see. And yet, God is with us.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  56:43

When you talk about like how we are very narrow in our image of what God is and what healing can look like, and how that Divine Love can show up in so many different ways. So I just came back from a couple days away, where I was, like, out of my window of tolerance need to go be away from my children and my family, or I will burn it all down. And I found myself continuously drawn to water. And so I'm just like acting on the waterfront and sitting by the, like the waves or like Ontario when the waves that that comes up with. And I'm like, I can't tell you why this is what is coming to me right now. But this just feels like the energy that my body needs to flow in and to flow out of. And then this morning, I'm like, Alright, I'm back to real life. And I pick up your book, and you talk about sitting by the ocean and feeling immersed in something much bigger and more powerful than yourself. And I was like, Oh, that just like, that was that moment of divine love this morning. I was like, Oh, that was what the last two days were for me. So it was just a really beautiful full circle moment. So even as you just talked about that divine love showing up in different ways and not limiting it. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that little bit of your story. Because it was what divine needed to reveal to me this morning. It's beautiful. And I asked you to pray for us.

Aundi Kolber  58:06

Yes, absolutely. Yes. God, we just we thank you, that you are here with us, the God who comes near. And for every person who is listening to this, at the pace and in the way that they are able may they have the eyes to see the way that you are with us and the ways that they are loved. Thanks for this conversation and I just pray that folks would be met in the ways that they need thanks for the ways that you love us and all the many many creative ways in Jesus name, amen.

Jonathan Puddle  58:59

Friends go and order Strong Like Water: Finding the Freedom, Safety and Compassion to Move Through Hard Things and Experience True Flourishing, you'll find a link to in the show notes. And on Amazon wherever else you'd like to buy books Aundi Kolber want to give a reminder as well that I am launching my You Are Enough seminars in person in Finland. This may, if you've read my book already, or if you're interested in learning more about how to love your stuff, using some of Aundi's tools and other people's tools. I've developed a five session one day seminar that I'll be teaching in Helsinki and Jyväskylä in May of this year. So head to JonathanPuddle.com/seminar. If you would like more information on that I would love to see you there. It's going to be pretty exciting. Also, if you want to support the work that I'm doing here, you could become a monthly supporter patreon.com/jonathan puddle will get you in to the monthly support program. They love to everyone who is a supporter thank you so much for your faithfulness and your generosity you make this all possible. Friends, I hope this discussion has been life giving for you. If you want hear some other thoughts influenced by Aundi's work, Jonathan Martin, who surely you know if you listen to me, and I recorded a conversation all about how trauma can inform our spiritual life, and we talked about faith as a resource, as well as religion as a source of trauma. That's over on The Zeitcast right now, where we just unpack some high level overview of how trauma intersects with our faith life. And you'll hear a lot of Aundi's work in the things that I say. credit where credit's due. Anyway, friends, thank you so much for being here. Please do share this with somebody if it's meaningful for you. And we'll be back in a couple of weeks with a B-side. Grace and peace to you, talk soon.