#106: The Enneagram types under stress (with Ian Morgan Cron)
“If we are made in the image of God then we are a primary source for understanding who the divine is.”
This week we are joined by Enneagram teacher, Ian Morgan Cron. Ian is a bestselling author, psychotherapist, and host of the Typology podcast. Ian’s book, The Road Back to You: An Enneagram Journey to Self-Discovery is one I highly recommend, and so I was thrilled to welcome Ian to the show. We talked about the doctrine of original goodness, the mystery of God in our lives, the unconscious motivations of each Enneagram type, the Enneagram types under stress, dying to the false self and more.
Order The Road Back to You: An Enneagram Journey to Self-Discovery by Ian Morgan Cron & Suzanne Stabile
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Once you’ve listened to this, make sure to check out the raw and uncut B-Side interview where my friends and I unpack the conversation in even more detail. Available exclusively on Patreon.
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Transcription
Jonathan Puddle 00:01
Hello, my friends! Welcome back to The Puddcast with me, Jonathan Puddle. This is Episode 106. I am thrilled to announce that my family as of today, Thursday, is out of isolation! So, thank God, we have gotten over COVID. Actually, my daughter was the only one who got it. The rest of us didn't even catch it from her. And we're all healthy and Public Health has let us out the house. Praise the Lord. Thrilled to share another episode of the podcast with you today, my guest is Ian Morgan Cron. He is one of the top Christian, Enneagram teachers. If you don't otherwise know him, he's a best-selling author and psychotherapist, and he hosts the Typology podcast. Typology is, is massive and, and I know it's been really helpful to many, many people in their journey of healing and hope. Ian is the author of the book, The Road Back to You: An Enneagram Journey of Self-Discovery. And it's one of the books that I highly recommend to people. So he and I discussed original goodness, the mystery of God in our lives, the unconscious motivations of the Enneagram types, we talked especially about the Enneagram types under stress, because that's real to me right now. We talked about dying to the false self, the ego, as well as a little bit on Tibetan Buddhism. So lots of fun stuff in here for you today. And of course, this is available in transcribed text. So head over to JonathanPuddle.com/podcast, click on the link for this show. And you'll be able to read through the text if you'd rather do that than listen. Here we go! I am thrilled to welcome Ian Morgan Cron to the show this week. Welcome, sir.
Ian Morgan Cron 01:44
Thank you, it's a delight to be here.
Jonathan Puddle 01:46
You've got this book, The Road Back to You. And in my own writing, in my own journey I have definitely had to come around to maybe healing is actually discovering the goodness and the truth of our humanity, I was raised in a tradition that was quite interested in escaping it. Or at least that was what happened in me, whether that was explicitly taught or not. The Enneagram has been really instrumental for me, in helping me kind of figure out the difference between the good parts of me and the parts that have... yet to become good. If I could put it that way. I still run into a lot of people who say, you know, really, is it about us? And we journeying back to us? That I've heard people say, when I've recommended your book to people "The road back to you", shouldn't that be like the road towards Jesus? Where does that... how do you unpack that?
Ian Morgan Cron 02:38
You know, the irony is that you think about John Calvin, in the opening paragraph of the Institutes, writes, "Without knowledge of self, there is no knowledge of God." Augustine writes, "Lord, may I know myself that I may know thee". There is an inextricable link between self knowledge and knowledge of God. I don't under... I don't entirely understand that mystery. But if you think about it, if we are made in the image of God, then we are a primary source for understanding who the divine is, right? And I would also say that, and I'll be blunt, when I meet people, sometimes who say that to me, you know the... Shouldn't we be focusing all of our attention on Jesus and not ourselves? I often think that that's resistance to doing our own work. It's a deflection. And for me, I think that's a tragic missed opportunity. And so I would encourage people to do the work of self reflection, which is not navel gazing. It's not... It's not some kind of, you know, egotism run riot, right. It's a way of sweeping our side of the street, and trying to become the highest expression of ourselves in the world. I don't think that's in opposition to the gospel. Do you?
Jonathan Puddle 04:12
No, I don't. I agree with you completely. If you have been raised... you quoted Calvin to begin with, if you have been raised in modern day Calvinism, you may well, and I've heard people say this to me, why would I look inward when all I would find is my wretchedness? If that's what you have been taught and raised with, and that's how faithfulness looks to you. Where would you begin to... I don't know, dismantle that? Is that the right word?
Ian Morgan Cron 04:41
I mean, can you imagine how miserable that must be?
Jonathan Puddle 04:46
No.
Ian Morgan Cron 04:47
I mean, here's the thing. I'll say something that Reformed people will probably shut off your podcast right now when I say it, but I urge them to stay on, you know. And hear some of my reasoning. I believe in the doctrine of original sin, I don't understand it. But that doesn't mean I don't believe it. You know what I mean? Like, okay, all right, I'll buy it. But I like this phrase more... Sorry, Augustine... I would say, I believe in the doctrine of original vulnerability.
Jonathan Puddle 05:19
Mmhmm.
Ian Morgan Cron 05:19
Oh, meaning that all of us arrive here is I think about Wordsworth who said that, we all something to the effect of, we all come riding trails of glory. Right? That said, we're born into a broken world, and we're not here very long before we begin to pick up real and perceived messages about our value, about our worth, our lovableness. And those messages begin to leave scars and nicks that profoundly affect our way of being in the world. From that moment forward, and for me, I think we have to explore with great self-compassion, the effects of the world on us when we arrived. And again, you know, I think, so many of the more conservative expressions of Christianity, ignore our original goodness, you know, our original beauty. And I think, to do that, it sort of how would I say this? It mortgages our spirituality. In its in, you know, the, the Buddhists would call shooting the second arrow, right, which is, we come with a wound, and then we shoot another one into it. You know, it's like, we do something wrong, or we feel something like we are something wrong, and then we beat the crap out of ourselves for it. That's the second arrow. The first one was bad enough, you know what I mean?
Jonathan Puddle 07:09
So you didn't choose to be born, you just ended up here. But now, but now it's your fault.
Ian Morgan Cron 07:14
In other words, you were not consulted. You were not consulted about the family you were born into, your skin color, your gender, your sexual orientation, none of these things, you are not consulted about any of them. And so, you know, how do we make our way in the world? You know, and I think part of the journey is understanding our well, to my Reformed friends, maybe I would say this, how can you understand your profound need for grace, if you have no self-knowledge? Right, it becomes a mere theological abstraction rather than an experienced reality. So again, I could speak at length about it. And I hope I have not put off people who I would hope would hang in there in the conversation. But I think it's a tragic overstatement, that requires a correction of the excess in it.
Jonathan Puddle 08:17
Yeah. Yeah, that resonates deeply. Thank you. How did you end up here?
Ian Morgan Cron 08:25
haha... well, where are...
Jonathan Puddle 08:26
You have eight minutes.
Ian Morgan Cron 08:30
hahaha... How? What is... what location Do you think I inhabit?
Jonathan Puddle 08:37
How did you journey to this space? Did you begin to do were you raised in a tradition or framework that that spoke this way? Are you passing on the the teachings of every one of your mentors or have you, like so many of us, crashed and burned and had to pick up all the pieces?
Ian Morgan Cron 08:53
Well, you know, I think... I was raised in the Roman Catholic tradition. Went to Catholic schools from years. Beautiful. I'm not one of those kids who hates the Catholic Church. There was a lot about it, I found incredibly beautiful and wonderful. The educators aside, I found the mass to be profoundly affecting. I was involved in high school in an Evangelical youth group and I have a great debt of gratitude to them. They saved my life as a kid. Growing up in a very... oh boy... troubled would be an understatement. A home with a drug addicted father, who eventually died from his disease. I eventually... I'll skip forward, I became an Episcopal priest. It was as close as I could get to being a Catholic priest. In other words, having a rich sacramental life. I became a novelist, a memoirist, I became a songwriter here in Nashville. I've had a wonderful portfolio kind of life and then also became a psychotherapist. And so all of these different vocations were in service to the same goal which was to help both myself and others enter into a deeper conversation with the mystery of God and the mystery of their own lives. And, you know, what a great calling. I mean, what a What a wonderful adventure that that has been for me. I'd also add that I've been profoundly affected spiritually by my own recovery from drug and alcohol addiction. And so working a 12-step program has been a wonderful, ancillary part of my spiritual journey. I self identify as a Christian, but these other pools of wisdom have deeply held me as has... and I'm just gonna be honest with your audience, I don't do this very often, but, as has a a decade long study of Tibetan Buddhism, and I oftentimes refer to myself as a Buddhist-enriched Christian.
Jonathan Puddle 11:10
Hmm.I love that. I can resonate with a lot of that. I have been raised Charismatic, I'm a kids pastor at a Charismatic church who baptized all of his children, Roman Catholic. They're all in Catholic school, except that one of them has COVID. So right now they're all at home in my house. Surprise.
Ian Morgan Cron 11:28
Yes, the COVID the COVID catechism we call it.
Jonathan Puddle 11:31
That's right. It is indeed a sanctifying process.
Ian Morgan Cron 11:35
We're all involved.
Jonathan Puddle 11:38
I laid on my bed in the middle of the day today, just sort of being like, yes. and perseverance produces character, something like that... sweet Jesus help me...
Ian Morgan Cron 11:47
Our lady of sorrows.
Jonathan Puddle 11:50
Hahaha. So okay, how often have the nine types of the enneagram, specifically, been a catalyst then for you in this work of helping people discover God in themselves, and the beauty the original glory of it all?
Ian Morgan Cron 12:04
Like, you know, I think it's important to say at the outset that I don't have any, I'm always talking people off the Enneagram ledge, you know, it's like, they get so enthusiastic about it to the point of it being a little delusional, you know, like, we have found, you know, the secret to decoding the mystery of the human person. Dramatic overstatement? You know, it's a model. It's a, that's all it is. And as George Box, the great British statistician, once said, "All models are wrong, but some are useful." And I just ascribe to that idea that, you know, the Enneagram is wrong, how could it possibly, you know, with any precision, accurately describe the fullness, the mystery of the human person, however, it's very useful, right? It's true enough. Right. And that's the same. That's the case with everything from economics to, you know, history, there are models of understanding, and we just have to hold them lightly, you know. And so for me, I think that what it's done is it's given me a language, and a very useful one for understanding the different ways that people see and move through the world. And are there only nine types? I don't know. Here's what I do know, these nine ways of seeing the world appear so often in the general population, that we should pay attention to them. Right? And they've helped me enormously in my own life, I've seen it help others in their marriages and their work in their self-understanding. And when used correctly, it's fantastic. You know, it's a great little spiritual formation tool, among many, among many. In fact, I tell people all the time, never use the Enneagram in isolation, it should always be twinned with other, you know, spiritual practices or, you know, ways of seeing the world that can help you along your path.
Jonathan Puddle 14:18
Yeah, for sure. In my, in my journey with the Enneagram and beyond, it's been like at the intersection of understanding bits and pieces of who I am and how I tend to operate and what kind of traumatic triggers contributed to this maladaptive and positive picture today, and then tying that into IFS, or some kind of emotionally focused therapy or other bits and pieces, contemplative spiritual practices of my own. All that kind of stuff has been just transformative, powerfully transformative.
Ian Morgan Cron 14:54
Yeah, absolutely. It's worth remembering that personality typing goes back to the Greeks, the early Greeks. I mean it's not like this is a new sort of system. The early Greeks did it, the Buddhists have 300 like 300 personality types, modern psychology of several several schools of modern psychology have you know, personalities, used personality or character trait character, you know, ways of understanding the human person. This one to me seems like the most accessible you know, and to your point to it reveals that we are a bundle of contradictions, right we we are both broken and beautiful or as your Canadian listeners will appreciate Bruce Cockburn's. line about we are both you know, we're angel beasts, you know, we're a little bit of both, right. And it's much better to bring into conscious awareness that broken sh... or is Jung would say, the shadow aspect of who we are, you know, the more you can bring into surface consciousness, the better off you are, you know, the the better off you are to understand those drives and motivations that live beyond the fence line of our awareness most of the time, so that you have more agency, you have more freedom to make different choices than you did before. You are aware of those forces, which for many, many years have governed your life from the shadows.
Jonathan Puddle 16:27
Yes, yes. Wow. That's exactly what has happened to me. I remember, when folks first kind of like: Oh, Enneagram this and I was like, Oh, cool. I love these things. Let's do a quiz online. No, no, hold on, let's have a much more robust conversation. I began learning about it. What would you walk us through the nine types? How you label them and understand them?
Ian Morgan Cron 16:49
Sure. All right. So what I'll do is I'll just very briefly one sentence describe the type and then I'm going to maybe just give you a sentence about the unconscious motivation of that type, then why is this important? Because, you know, you actually contain all nine types. And, you know, there's only one that that you tend to be dominant in it describes you better than the other eight types. Right? And, and remember, these are low resolution pictures, right? And so, again, you know, you're not going to have some epiphany that where it's like, oh, my gosh, this is the whole of me. It's not what, it's not what you do, but why you do it, that matters. It's why it's what's motivating it underneath the surface line of the waterline of consciousness, if you will. Alright, here we go. Ones are called the improvers. Ethical, meticulous, detail oriented, morally heroic, they are motivated by a need to be good and to perfect themselves & others in the world. Okay? Twos are called the helpers though I'm starting to call them the Befrienders, like that warm, caring, giving supportive, emotionally attuned people. They're motivated by a need to be liked, really a deep need to be appreciated and liked. Alright, Threes are called the performers. Success-oriented image conscious wired for productivity. They're motivated by a need to succeed to appear successful and to avoid failure at all costs. Fours, the romantics, the finest number on the Enneagram I might add. Creative, sensitive, moody, disproportionately represented in the creative arts. They're motivated, I believe, by a need to belong to heal this broken perception that they have been relegated to the Isle of Misfit Toys, and they need to find this missing piece in their essential makeup that disqualifies them from belonging. So, Fives, the investigator. Analytical, detached, very private. Often people experience them as aloof or emotionally unavailable. They're motivated by a need to gain knowledge to conserve energy and to attain self sufficiency. Sixes... the loyalists sometimes called the devil's advocates. Committed, practical, witty. They're worst case scenario thinkers who are motivated by fear and the need for security, safety and support. Sevens: the enthusiast. Fun, spontaneous and adventurous. They're motivated by a need to avoid psychological and emotional distress. Eights, the challenger, second best number on the Enneagram I might add. Commanding, intense, confrontational. My mother, who is an Eight likes to say, Eights could start an argument in an empty house. They're motivated by a need to assert strength and power over the environment and others to really mask vulnerability. Right? Nines are called the peacemakers. They're oftentimes called the sweethearts of the Enneagram. Pleasant, laid back, accommodating, go with the flow, don't rock the boat. They're motivated by a need to maintain inner and external peace. To avoid relational disconnection, and markedly really to avoid conflict. You're welcome.
Jonathan Puddle 20:50
So clearly, you are like a Four with a soft spot for Eights?
Ian Morgan Cron 20:56
I definitely do, in part because Fours and Eights I think are two of the most misunderstood numbers on the Enneagram.
Jonathan Puddle 21:03
Yeah, yeah, I think that's true. I'm married to an Eight. And the Enneagram has been really helpful. I mean, let me put it this way. She wants nothing to do with the Enneagram. She feels like she doesn't want to be controlled or manipulated, and it's another system that the world has devised to cause her harm. So...
Ian Morgan Cron 21:23
Well, that sounds like a perfect Eight. That's an Eight description right there. And by the way, when I say best numbers on the Enneagram, of course, I'm being facetious, because there's, all these numbers are beautiful when they're self aware, and, and working on themselves. I just was, you know, yes. Doing my thing here.
Jonathan Puddle 21:41
Yes, all the Twos were like: "Oh, well, we feel a little bit hurt. But we also like that he's kind of funny and friendly."
Ian Morgan Cron 21:48
Yes.
Jonathan Puddle 21:51
So here's what's happened in the last year for me and COVID, with lockdowns, and all this kind of uncertainty, obviously, globally, and all the bits and pieces that go into the last 12 months of the human experience on this planet. I feel like I have fallen really hard on to my default coping mechanisms. I am a pretty self aware person, I've put a lot of effort into that, I've got robust practices, yet COVID slapped everything silly. My wife, the same for her. She has had a overwhelming and exported need upon the rest of us to have all the ducks in a row, to sort out all the things, to know what's happening to know the plan, the schedule, how we're responding, and so on. I just feel like an emotional mess. I feel sad and happy. I feel desperately in need of my friendships. And they've all been taken away, of course. And at sometimes, it's felt like we are so different to one another. Our coping mechanisms are so poles apart, how can we possibly survive? How can our... Which is to say, how can our marriage survive COVID any longer? Now, before you respond, I would say that when we are flowing better Twos and Eights have a real wonderful kind of coinherence in terms of compassion, and advocacy for those around us. So mostly, that's where we live. But when we don't live there, it's like how on earth have we gotten through 15 years of this insanity? I'd love to hear your thoughts on what... on my marriage, but also just how how stress affects the types? And what what what are people doing? I mean, we can spend the rest of the show on this how, how are we surviving? And what does it look like? And what would you encourage us to do? Or to consider?
Ian Morgan Cron 24:06
You know, one of the... I would say that one of the maybe words of encouragement I would have your wife is learning the Enneagram because it would make your life a lot easier in the house during COVID. You would begin to realize that the human personality is adaptive, meaning that, you know, throughout the course of the day, it has to be dynamic to meet different situations, right. As I mentioned earlier, you contain all nine types. I mean, I draw energy from you know and habits from all these nine types. There's just one that I tend to default to right, that I click into more often than the others. I think, what it's given for example, to my wife, who's a Nine... I'm all for it, it completely revolutionized our marriage. I thought I knew my wife after 20 years of marriage and only discovered using the Enneagram that I did not understand her inner architecture. And once I did, it changed everything. We suddenly had a vernacular language around which we could talk of. Things were no longer as personal, you know. And we began to understand what we were like when we are under stress. And we start to double down in predictable and habitual patterns of thinking, acting and feeling, which are not in service to us any longer. You know, and tangentially, you know, Carl Jung is a hero to me. He, you know, Jung once said that that which helps you in the morning of life to survive in the afternoon of life will kill you. That's a bastardization of the actual quote. But that's the idea, which is so true, you know, your personality, when you're a little kid helps you get your needs met, it helps you figure out how to navigate the world of relationships, it is, in many ways a response to trauma, and that desire to avoid that trauma again, right. And so, you know, when you begin to realize these things about each other, and that we tend to double down when things get tough. You can talk, you have empathy, it arouses compassion, understanding, forbearance, long suffering, I mean, goodness gracious, if you're a Christian, why wouldn't you want those things, right? Those characteristic features of a healthy human, an evolved human, I mean, sounds like another good reason to, you know, dip your feet into a system like the Enneagram. Right. And I would say to that, for Twos, but for every type that... I was, on another interview this morning with, I think, maybe the guy was from Great Britain. And I had to tell him that, you know, there's a new position in the British government in the UK, that is the Minister of Loneliness. It's a remarkable thing that a government would recognize that one of the great crises of our age is loneliness. And I think the Enneagram is a great tool for mitigating loneliness. Everybody wants to be seen and understood. And this is what the gift of the Enneagram is, and to your point, what a balm in a season of crisis, right. And we need as much of these healing ointments in our lives now as we can possibly get our hands on. And I, you know, I guess I would say that maybe one of my experiences in this season has been loneliness. And I think it has been, that's been part of the larger global trauma of this thing. Is this feeling of isolation. It's nice to be understood.
Jonathan Puddle 27:55
Seriously. Can you walk us through each of the nine types under stress?
Ian Morgan Cron 28:00
Well, I mean, I think you've, you've really kind of said it, you know, if I were just going to put it succinctly, you know, without maybe necessarily dragging through all the types, because it would take us some time. And also because I could, I could describe you what these types are, like under stress, but remember that when we talk about personality styles, we are talking about probabilities, not predictive behavior. In other words, it is probable that when you are under stress, as a Two, you will act this way, but it is not pre-determined, right? People surprise us all the time. Right? That's why we always say about each other from time to time, we say, "Boy, you know, Ian's just not himself today." Right? I'm not, I'm not acting in ways that are within the bandwidth of my typical, my probabilities, you know, anyhow, you know. Like a One may double down, become judgmental and critical, maybe too controlling, starting to become overly concerned with ordering the disordered, repairing broken systems. You know, beginning to believe that there are two ways to do things: their way and the wrong way, you know. Twos under stress, y'all can get aggressive. You know, the Enneagram teaches that when Twos are under stress, they go to the low side of Eight, they start to look like unhealthy Eights. You could go into like this profound helping mode and if any number on the Enneagram is lonely right now, it's Twos. You're the most interpersonal relationships, you know, oriented number on the Enneagram. You go to bed in the morning thinking, getting up in the morning thinking about relationships, you go to bed at night thinking about relationships, and when you're in isolation, not good. You can get aggressive. You can become very frustrated. Your emotionality might might increase and you might begin to find yourself picking up the phone or Zooming more often than not, just to be able to make sure that your connections with others are secure. You know, I can I could go through all these types. Would you like me to do it?
Jonathan Puddle 30:16
Go through the types, go through the types, because because I know for some folks again, who are still coming into the tool, especially now in terms of COVID stress, it's helpful to be like, oh, okay, yeah, I can identify myself in some of that.
Ian Morgan Cron 30:28
So again, you know, for Threes, you know, Threes are probably doing better than a lot of types. Because they're very adaptable. They're very good in a crisis situation, like a few other numbers are. And, but their tendency would be to go to the low... look begin to look like an unhealthy Nine, where they will become a little lost. A little depressed, feeling directionless, sometimes watching too much Netflix, not getting dressed for the day, not caring for their appearance as much as they used to, that's typical for Threes, or they're just going to double down on work. You know what I mean? Like, they're just gonna go into hyperdrive. And will start to demand a lot of people from work, more than what they're capable of giving at this point. Right.
Jonathan Puddle 31:27
We'll take a quick break to thank my Patrons. Thank you so much to everybody who supports the show monthly or annually. You guys make this possible, you keep me encouraged. And I love the conversations and comments that we have on the private, secret, Patron only content, like the B-Sides, where we unpack each episode in greater depth, me and my friends. A huge shout-out to Ming who is my latest patron, thank you so much, Ming, blessed to have you. Friends, if you would like to support the show, if you'd like to have more behind the scenes access and and listen to the B-Sides each week, then go to patreon.com/JonathanPuddle, you can become a supporter for as little as $3 a month or $30 a year. And I would be really glad to have you. Thanks so much. Back to the show.
Ian Morgan Cron 32:15
Fours... I don't know, I'm a Four. I'm a particular kind of Four. But, you know, the typical Four is probably doing okay. You know, in COVID, I mean, I'm very sorry for the tragedy, the tragic dimensions of it. But for a lot of COVID I've been very happy to be home. I'm not an introvert, per se, but I do very much enjoy time alone for reading reflection writing, for like sort of creative output. I only have so much energy for other people. That said, I can I can really kind of go to the low side of Two is what the Enneagram teaches we we will do and we're not great, I can't become clingy. I can be become sort of needy, I could become resentful of other people for not appreciating me enough for all the things that I do for them, you know, which is not inconsiderable and and so, all to say, what the Enneagram does, you see is it predicts what you might probably be like under stress, but it's not going to get the whole of it. But and again, people surprise us but you know, I could say, with probability, my friend Anthony, who's sitting here, my producer, who is also a Four, he's probably responding this way. Right? But that prediction is helpful in my relationship with him. Fives... they probably more than any other type are doing okay. And COVID... I was laughing the other day, I work with a lot of corporate, in the corporate space a lot. In fact more than anywhere else. And a guy who's a coder at a company recently said to his boss, do I have to come back to the office when COVID is over? And I just said now that's predictable! You know, Fives are gonna, could be spending a lot of time on the internet right now. Gathering tons of information, they love their autonomy is really important to them, they love to work from home, or in a coffee shop doing their own thing. I would I would say that I think that however, Fives could go to the low side of Seven under stress and begin to become a little manic, a little disjointed. Their thinking can become disorganized, right? Unusually disorganized for them. And, you know, their way of communicating could become what we call logorrhetic or like word salad, right? They things are just coming out in this a discombobulated way. You know the, the Six is the loyalists. Oh god, poor things, these anxiety ridden people, these chronic worriers during an age of COVID. Oh my gosh, very uncomfortable the Sixes that I know right now, they all have to really discipline themselves not to watch Wolf Blitzer in that damn Situation Room where, you know, everything is cause for panic. These are worst case scenario thinkers and, and when they're not doing well, they'll go to the low side of Three, they'll start to be involved in all kinds of pointless busyness. And, you know, trying to cope with anxiety trying to cope with, you know, preparedness and being very, very worried about the state of the world, and how it might affect them. They also, by the way, might be tempted to look to strong, authoritarian leaders and experts to tell them what to do in order to remain safe. And so they have to be careful of groupthink, you know, and joining forces with other like minded Sixes who are looking for the same thing. Sevens, you know, Sevens have reframed COVID as something positive. They have all this wonderful, you know... if if Sixes at their worst, cope with fear through pessimism, Sevens cope with it through optimism.
Jonathan Puddle 36:21
"You wouldn't believe how many times I could repaint my house in six months."
Ian Morgan Cron 36:23
Exactly. Right. Now, the benefit the joy of the Seven though, of course, is they bring all this energy of optimism into spaces and we need it, right. I mean, you know, we need that. And we need also the caution, the cautiousness and the preparedness of the Six, you know, in its healthiest expression, right, not when it becomes neurotic. So Sevens under stress will start to, you know, go to the low side of One, they can become morally superior, they'll start... my son is a Seven. I remember one time he was away at boarding school, and he said to me... I said, "What've you been doing?" He said, "I've been organizing my sock drawer and I'm tired of all the kids on my floor who smoke pot and aren't doing their homework" and I'm like, is it exam time? He He's a kid that you know, once Sevens, when they're under stress, they can become kind of rigid, critical, judgmental. And so my son because he knows the Enneagram now is able to exercise self awareness and realize that when he goes to that zone, right. Eights! You know, when things get tough, the tough get going, they can really power up to meet challenges. You really want an Eight around in crisis. Eights are fantastic. By the way, you also want Fives, I mean, I haven't gone through all these these types, you know, with the gifts they bring right. But a Five brings us cool, dispassionate clarity and objectivity. Like, you know, that numbers like Twos really need, right who are more, far more emotional than a Five is and can get lost in those emotions and swept up in the vortex of them. You know, the, the Eights, they have to be careful withdrawing, they can go into this low side of Five space where they kind of go into isolation, which is very unusual for them. They're usually, they're, you know, Threes, Sevens and Eights are the three most aggressive numbers on the Enneagram. And so those Eights will sort of pause and pull back and start to look like an unhealthy Five. They can withdraw, isolate, start to do a lot of planning and thinking about what they're going to do next, you know, among other things. And Nines, start to look like unhealthy Sixes, in stress they they start to become more anxious. Worst case scenario thinkers, a little paranoid, like some unhealthy Sixes will will do. The world feels like it's against them, working against their efforts. And, again, among other things, you know, I could go into great detail, but I'm just giving you a little bit of a flavor of where each type might or probably might go in stress. But I would say that the first line is they're gonna double down in there first, they're just common patterns, they're there, and they're unhealthy patterns. Once they have exhausted all of those things, and they're no longer working, then they're going to begin to act the way I'm describing, they're going to move around the Enneagram to these other types, right, and try to draw resources from them. Of course, you know, they might get something good, but you know, with absence of self-awareness, you know, this redoubling of the effort just spirals into something unhealthy and not good.
Jonathan Puddle 39:41
Yeah, I really appreciate that layering up that you described because I I have a lot of Three tendencies and a lot of Seven tendencies as well. I though, I definitely most keenly identify as a Two but I can watch as I... kind of as the wheels come further and further off. And I'm like, Okay, so I've spoken to everybody that I can speak to. And my wife is frustrated with my codependent tendencies. So okay, so relationships are not going to solve the problem. Accomplishments! Excellent. Let me be really helpful to the whole world and sort out a whole bunch of stuff and get that next book draft done and do all these things. And oh, I didn't get that many likes on this post. So now I'm frustrated. And now, I'm now, I'm really offended that all this whole day my children haven't been doing the schoolwork they were meant to be doing while I was ignoring them.
Ian Morgan Cron 40:42
Right. Right. Yeah. And then once you get that book done, and you succeed at your podcast, and you accomplish all these wonderful things, then finally people will like you.
Jonathan Puddle 40:53
That's what I said to my friend today on the phone, not long before this call when I was kind of spinning out, because we're, we're a week into four weeks of isolation due to contracting COVID. And I said, I said everything in my life is working. And I'm very frustrated and lonely still.
Ian Morgan Cron 41:13
But you know that the thing that Twos have to work on is learning how to be in solitude.
Jonathan Puddle 41:19
Yeah.
Ian Morgan Cron 41:20
Because you are so relationship oriented. I mean, that's your drug of choice is relationships. And really your, your, well, another drug of choice is appreciation and being liked, right? And when, when your supply is cut off, right, you start to jones, you know, you start to you start to have withdrawal. And so being in solitude, where you're actually having to get in touch with your own needs, and your own desires, and your own wants, rather than exclusively focusing on the desires, the wants and the needs of others, is both torturous and necessary, right, to become a whole person.
Jonathan Puddle 42:05
Absolutely.
Ian Morgan Cron 42:06
So I have a spiritual director, his name is Brother Curtis, I haven't seen him in a long time. But he's an Episcopal monk in Cambridge, Mass. And one time, he got mad at me whining about my addicted self and all my problems, blah, blah, blah. He got his face right up into the screen of my computer. And he told me, he's like, he's wearing a cowl. He's a monk, right? And he says to me, "Ian, this is your life. These are the cards, what's the invitation?" And I remember being thrown back on my heels by the final question. What he was saying is that in every situation, every crisis, there is a divine invitation to something new. And so in this moment, I think we have to ask ourselves in these crises moments, one of many questions I love. Two questions, how’s this. One is, what is God's will for my life in this situation over which I have no control? Right. So, always a good question to journal on. Another one is, what does love require of me right now? What does love require of me right now? It's probably a good question even when COVID isn't... when you're not in crisis to ask several times a day. What does love require of me right now? These are invitations, right? In these times of crises for every type for all people?
Jonathan Puddle 43:26
Hmm, I would love to double-click on those questions a little more. What does? What is God's purpose for me in this situation that I cannot control?
Ian Morgan Cron 43:36
Yes.
Jonathan Puddle 43:38
Without, without... I like the way you put that, because we can obviously, without the parameter, we can very quickly spin out, What is God's purpose of me and my life? And how am I? Oh, my gosh, I've been off track for the last five years and suddenly, your spiraling...
Ian Morgan Cron 43:53
Oh don't flatter yourself. Hahaha. Nobody's been off track for five years, for crying out loud. Human beings... I don't know what it is about Christians. You know, it's sort of like this. I don't know. It's like this kind of aversion to self-compassion. You know, this is what I've learned from the Buddhists. It's like, what is, you know, this is like a some sort of neurotic obsession with your brokenness. It's like, you know, please, people don't flatter yourself. You're not that, you're not nearly as bad as you think you are. Right. And, and you are right, I think that one of the great illusions that human beings tend to live under is that they have that they are, they believe they are much more in control of life than they actually are. Far, you know, we have far less control, far less control than we'd like to think. That's an illusion. And actually, when you begin to accept powerlessness, powerlessness becomes ultimate power. You know, that's a paradox in the spiritual life.
Jonathan Puddle 44:58
That sounds... it's a very cruciform thing to say really isn't?
Ian Morgan Cron 45:01
It absolutely is. Again, you know, not to go to hackneyed a text but you know, Philippians 2 would be a great example of this, right? The emptying of the I, the ego, the ability to say, to die to oneself, right. And it's just that when we talk about that it means to die to the, the, the, this ego that is in constant service to its own aggrandizement, right, its own inflation and it's misery when we live there. You know, and when God says, you know, when Paul says, "For I no longer live, but Christ lives in me", and he talks about being crucified with Christ. I mean, for crying out loud, it sounds so terrible. It's like God wants to kill you. And the answer is he does. But the you that he wants to kill is this false self, this ego inside that makes us miserable, and that wants to be in control, which actually makes us very hard to live with. And it leads to things like wars. Or just misery in your little microcosm of life every day.
Jonathan Puddle 46:08
I've been doing this course in the Gospel of John with Paul Young and Brad Jersak and Father John Behr, a bunch of these guys and, and women, Cherith Nordling, Julie Canlis. And there's been a lot of discussion recently on this exact pace. This, "I no longer live, but Christ lives in me" and around this idea of the ego, the false self. The movement from I, the self actualization, the ego existence, the title of God, as "I am", the only one who gets to exist in and of himself to the movement to me, if Christ lives in me, that makes me... I am now the object of someone's affection. "I" is like self existent, but "me" is observed and loved. And there's nothing in "me" that has to die. It's the "I" that has to die. I know that may sound like splitting hairs if you don't get it. But for those who are journeying...
Ian Morgan Cron 47:09
Yup. Well, anybody who wants to really understand that, really, they have to go to Merton's New Seeds of Contemplation, and actually, read Chapter 5, I actually even know the chapter. I remember where I was when I read it. And I remember that it was like, so powerful an epiphany that really everything from that day on was different for me. And this is where he talks about the true and the false self, the I. And in its worst expression. And so I'd encourage your listeners, just go to Chapter 5 of New Seeds of Contemplation and read away, because that's really where you know Merton really just, he speaks with such surgical accuracy, describing this condition and the possibilities of, of living into a true self, which, by the way, is a very misleading term or not very well understood, because you never arrive at a true self, the human being is fundamentally a process. It's not a static thing. We are daily a process and continual change. With second to second, I mean, technically speaking, when you walk into the, I don't know how many hours you've been away from your wife, but the next time you see her you will be a stranger to her, actually, because she has not spent the last two hours with you. And you have changed since she last saw you. Hahaha.
Jonathan Puddle 48:35
I mean, she feels like a stranger to me.
Ian Morgan Cron 48:40
Well, again, we are speaking in very esoteric terms, but it has great practical import too, you know. It, it's not just an abstract, you know, intellectually fascinating ideas. This has day to day import.
Jonathan Puddle 48:59
Yeah, yeah, absolutely so, absolutely, so. Ian, would you give us any, any some of your thoughts on what... some of the things that you've pulled in from from the Tibetan Buddhism that have been so life giving or anchoring for you?
Ian Morgan Cron 49:16
Yeah. And again, to reassure your audience, if they're anxious about this, and that, unfortunately, the... So much of what characterizes many Christian lives is anxiety, which feeds their lust for certitude.
Jonathan Puddle 49:31
Bingo!
Ian Morgan Cron 49:32
And so, you know, you know, the Buddhists have illuminated dimensions of the Gospel that I would not have ever understood apart from their insight. So this is why I just say, you know, I definitely self identify as a Christian. I don't think you can be a Christian Buddhist, there are too many inconsistencies between the two views of the world. But there's so much we can import from there, like, for example, the Buddhist understanding of suffering. So, you know, the Four Noble Truths. The first one is that life is suffering, right? It's that, but when they translate suffering, the word dukkha actually means to use Ethan Nichtern's translation of it would be, "the feeling of not at home."
Jonathan Puddle 50:25
Hmm.
Ian Morgan Cron 50:27
And all of us, in every given moment, feel not at home. That's a very Christian idea. I've never heard it explained as well. Maybe the only word that would come close to CS Lewis's translation of the German word Sehnsucht, right, which is this feeling of inconsolable longing for a far off country. And so it's this feeling of not at home, you feel anxious, you feel a little perturbed about your financial... In every given moment there's something that is rousing this feeling of not at home. What a beautiful concept that I've learned about what it means to live in the world. Right? None of us ever feel at home. That's a great way to awaken compassion in you, doesn't it, for yourself and for others, you know. Let me give you another example, and I rarely speak about this and and hopefully your podcast is not gigantic, and I won't be labelled a heretic and thrown out of every single... But But you know, how do we how do we make sense of the idea that God is everywhere? When most people have this very dualistic view, like, like, like, for example, that says, Protestants tend to think that we're here and God is far away. And periodically, he shows up here like Jesus, or, you know, the Cannon, whatever, or you know what I mean. It's like, he takes off again, and we live in this broken world that is devoid of God's presence. Of course, now, the Catholic worldview would be very different. It would be that we live in a world brimming with grace, they have a, really a sacramental imagination, really, the world is filled with God, so filled with God that we can't see it, right. And so the Buddhists helped me understand how God is present to us. And how it is that we cannot flee from his, his spirit, her spirit, however, you want to sort of wrestle with that term. Here's what I learned from the Buddhists, I think that God could be understood, more or less as a person than as a field. That God is an environment, that when Paul says, we live, move and have our being, right, in God, it's like he meant it. Like, like we are in God right now, as you and I speak, right? That every atom is charged with God's presence. That's not pantheism. Right? It's it's this knowledge that we are awash in this thrumming presence of the spirit that undergirds everything, right.
Jonathan Puddle 53:24
Mhmmm.
Ian Morgan Cron 53:26
And when I talk about God as a field through which we move, what I mean is that it's an intelligent, personal and loving field. Right? So I'm not saying that it's devoid of intelligence, I believe it's intelligent, it's personal, it's loving. The Buddhists taught me that. But I imported that idea into my Christian worldview, and it illuminated dimensions of the gospel, I would not have seen otherwise. Nobody speaks better, no one defines compassion better than the Buddhists. And here's the last thing I'd say of many things I could say, Now, again, coming at it from Tibetan tradition. Buddhism is a practice-based religion versus Christianity which is a belief-based religion. So actually, let me, let me rephrase that: Buddhism is technically not a religion. It's, I would more describe it as a philosophy. There's no deity in Buddhism, which is one of the things that most people don't understand. And that's why they get all spooked. It's really, in many ways, it's a science of the mind. But, you know, but it's practice based. It's like, it doesn't say, just believe this and it makes you a Buddhist. Right? It's it says, do this, right. And the Buddha himself said, "Oh by the way, don't believe what I say practice it, and if it you'll know if it's true, if it works." I love that about the Buddha. Right. And so, you know, it's a prayer, you know, it's about right livelihood, it's about right speech, you know, it's about right thinking it's, you know, and so they would call that the Eightfold Path, right. And so, again, I love the fact that it's a practice-based religion, you know, and it helps me not just be a person who understands right theology. It's not that it's not important, it's just not helpful if it's exclusive.
Jonathan Puddle 55:15
Well, and we can see, I think the damage of that kind of Christianity where, where we're like, "Well, I'm justified by my beliefs. And now my practices, I don't have to care for my neighbor, I don't have to care for the poor. And I'm, I'm allowed to support, ahhh, exploitative world systems because my beliefs are in the right place, and I get to go to heaven when I die."
Ian Morgan Cron 55:34
That's a distortion, isn't it?
Jonathan Puddle 55:36
Well, yeah.
Ian Morgan Cron 55:38
But these are, these are a few of the things that I've learned. And by the way, the, the other one would be the importance of a regular meditation practice. Tried to employ on a daily basis, and by the way is, twins beautifully with my Enneagram work. Because the Enneagram is not merely descriptive, it's prescriptive, it's a journey, it's a work, it requires energy and thought, and, and also a mind that is, you know, practiced in attention. And the only way to really practice attention is, well, the best way to strengthen the attentional muscle, in my mind is a regular centering prayer, if you want to call it that practice, or just basic sitting practice that you could learn from the Buddhists which is not to, you know, to assuage the fears that many who may be listening, that is not discontinuous with the Gospel. You know, it's not. And so, again, you know, I put it out there and people can hopefully, ponder it.
Jonathan Puddle 56:53
I love it. People who are listening who have read my book will be like, "Whoa, Ian is like... Jonathan clearly must have listened to this earlier and built his life upon these practices, and that now contextualizes everything Jonathan wrote in his book"
Ian Morgan Cron 57:08
Hahaha.
Jonathan Puddle 57:09
Let's just say that's how it happened. I'm very, very thankful and I resonate so deeply with all these aspects. Ian, would you pray for us?
Ian Morgan Cron 57:19
Yeah, sure. I've never had, I've never had a podcaster asked me to do that. But if it's okay I'm going to read the... maybe pray the long form of the, of Reinhold Niebuhr's the Serenity Prayer which has been so important to me in my journey of recovery and just becoming I hope a better human being. So... "God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can, and wisdom to know the difference. Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time, accepting hardship, as the pathway to peace, taking as he did this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it, trusting that he will make all things right, if I surrender to His will, that I may be reasonably happy in this life, and supremely happy with him forever in the next. Amen."
Jonathan Puddle 58:19
Amen. Thank you Ian. I love that, that was just so life giving and affirming and clarifying for me. If you enjoyed all this with Ian, make sure to go check out Ian's website and podcast and order his book. You'll find him @IanMorganCron. And @TypologyPodcast,. You should definitely be listening to his show, it's really really great. His book, of course, The Road Back to You: An Enneagram Journey of Self-Discovery. Click the show notes to find links to everything you need, including the transcript of this podcast. Friends, last week, I had Kurt Willems on the show, I got some great feedback in from Matt. Matt writes, "Dude that Kurt Willems podcast was fantastic, off the charts helpful, uplifting and practical. I had the pleasure of meeting Kurt way back. And thank you for that podcast." Thank you, Matt. That was wonderful. Also, Craig wrote in, "The podcast with Kurt Willems was awesome." Thanks for that. I do love your feedback friends, or your comments on episodes and private messages. I gotta say I prefer private messages. I know a lot of people are like, I'm not in my DMs. I guess that's for famous people. But I love the private messages. So send me the DMs, let me know what you're thinking of the show. Thank you very much. If you want to go back and listen to Kurt Willems, there's also a really great B-Side on that that I recorded with my friend Jacob, who is a pastor and deep thinker, lives in North Carolina, we unpacked lots of things around suffering and dark nights of the soul and when God feels absent. That was on the show last week. Friends, lots of exciting things coming up in the next few weeks. Grace and peace to you. Hope to hear from you soon.