#105: What the humanity of Jesus means for our pain (with Kurt Willems)
“It’s good news that Jesus was—and is—human. It’s good news that we are human. Being human is good! Let’s get the narrative out of our mind that our humanity is a limitation. Our humanity is our destiny!”
This week we are joined by Kurt Willems, to discuss how Jesus’ humanity redeems and transforms our human suffering. Kurt is a pastor, podcaster and theologian and his book is called, Echoing Hope: How the Humanity of Jesus Redeems Our Pain. Every time I speak with Kurt I find him to be this delightful blend of the academic, the pastoral, and deep spiritual formation. We talked about how Jesus meets us in our brokenness and leads us through the traumas of our life, renewing our humanity in the process. And a whole lot more, as usual!
Order Echoing Hope: How the Humanity of Jesus Redeems Our Pain, by Kurt Willems.
Click here to learn more about the book.
Listen to Kurt’s excellent podcast, Theology Curator.
Follow Kurt on Twitter, Instagram or Facebook.
Become a supporter of the show on Patreon at patreon.com/jonathanpuddle.
Order my trauma-informed 30-day devotional, You Are Enough: Learning to Love Yourself the Way God Loves You.
Find every book or resource I’ve talked about recently on my Amazon storefront, in Canada, the United States or the United Kingdom.
Don’t forget about the B-Side!
Once you’ve listened to this, make sure to check out the raw and uncut B-Side interview where my friends and I unpack the conversation in even more detail. Available exclusively on Patreon.
Related Episodes
Transcription
Jonathan Puddle 00:01
Hello, my friends welcome back to The Puddcast with me, Jonathan Puddle. This is Episode 105. My guest today is Kurt Willems, who is a guy I've followed for years and become friends with and so glad to welcome him to the show. Actually, I also need to say that thanks to you this is the very first episode were a transcription of the audio is available. Many of you will have heard I was working my way up to 70 patrons so that I could start providing transcribed audio. And that is now done. So this episode, you can go to the show notes, and you'll find the text transcription, I'm going to be working as well on the back catalogue and updating everything, providing transcriptions for everything going forward. So thank you to everybody who joined my Patreon to make that possible. So my guest today is Kurt Willems. Kurt is a pastor, podcaster and theologian, lives in Seattle, his new book is called Echoing Hope: How the Humanity of Jesus Redeems Our Pain. Kurt is like this delightful blend of academic, pastoral and then deep, like spiritual practice / spiritual formation. So we talked today all about how Jesus meets us in our brokenness, leads us through the traumas of our life, renewing our humanity in the process. And of course, we go all over the place talking about freewill and evil and resurrection, and everything else. So I'm glad you're here. And whoever you are, I think you'll find something special today. Kurt, this is so fun. I am so thrilled that I get to have you on the show today and kind of introduce you to my listeners, some of whom will be familiar with you already. But you know, just when we talked last time, I was like, man, I feel like I've been orbiting you for a while and you've been such like a beacon of hope in my own journey. So I just it means a lot to me that I get to share your wisdom your story with with my folks here. So thanks for making it.
Kurt Willems 02:02
Wow, wow man. And the feeling's mutual. In fact what? Depending on how the timing works out between my interview and yours, ahh, I have an interview with you that I get to share that I honestly, I walked away from our last conversation just with a sense of the gentleness of the Spirit. Like it was so good. And so the feeling is definitely mutual, bro. I'm so happy to be able to do this and grateful for the opportunity. Really.
Jonathan Puddle 02:29
Yeah. Thanks, man. That's awesome. So I when you when we spoke last you said to me, oh, yeah, and by the way, I've got a book coming out soon. And I was like, Oh, great. And within, before you had a chance to say anything about the book, my brain immediately went to all these Pauline topics. And like the rapture, and women in ministry and all these things that I associate with Kurt Willems, and like the nonviolence, all the different different bits and pieces that where you have been so impactful. And you've given me permission, right... like because I think what happened to my life was that as I was coming out of kind of deconstruction, and starting to find my own voice, and starting to find language for all the different pieces of my puzzle, you were out here six months to a year, five years ahead of me in different ways. And I was like, Ah, okay, yes, this is a this is permission. This is this is helpful. This, I'm not crazy. So then you're like, yes, so my book is about hope and suffering. And I'm like, Oh, yeah, sure. Why not?
Kurt Willems 03:40
Why not? That's good.
Jonathan Puddle 03:41
So I've been reading through it and I'm really enjoying.
Kurt Willems 03:46
Great, man.
Jonathan Puddle 03:47
But I'd love to hear what kind of that journey where it came from. what propelled you to start putting these words to page.
Kurt Willems 03:57
Yeah, wow, what a What a cool, a cool just synopsis of Yeah, the way God has used my online ministry in your life. And, you know, certainly my journey has been a lot about writing about things that I see as just culturally and evangelicalism, just things that we were given that were wrong, or or weren't the best option, or there's a better path here or there's more space here, depending on the issue. And that's how we got by starting blogging back in like 2010, 2011. And, you know, those were good years, they were definitely deconstructing various ideas. I had a different deconstruction than some people do today. I mean, my deconstruction has always been thoroughly rooted in maybe I read scripture wrong. For some people deconstruction goes way beyond that. Maybe scripture is wrong, or maybe scripture isn't authoritative. That's not been my journey. It's been about saying, Okay, if I believe this book, or this library of books and letters etc. point to Jesus, and if I really want to take that seriously, what are the things that I was handed that weren't helpful, and not just because they're impractical in our world, but because the Bible actually doesn't point that direction, you know. So I think because of that nuanced space that I tried to inhabit, there, there have been folks who have looked to me as permission giving, or Oh, that's what I was hoping to, you know, women in ministry was, is one that I've done some stuff on. And, you know, I've heard from a lot of women even, like, You have no idea how that just opened up space. For me, some who have said, to really take the calling I felt I've had as a pastor, and actually be that, not that I was the individual contributor, but I was just one little slice of a journey, you know, and, and that's just one example of the kinds of areas that you mentioned earlier. And, as I've come through my own process, and, you know, I've done a lot of that, that work of deconstruct, reconstruct, point people forward, while anchoring ourselves still in the tradition. I have moved over the years, I think, into a much more spiritual formation focused sense of self, while also at the same time continuing to lean into the academic side of myself and the pastoral side. So, so what happens in a book like this, is you get all three of those parts of me the academic side, the pastoral side, and ultimately the I hope to lead people in a formative journey with Jesus side. And that has been so hard, I'll admit, so hard to integrate. Because for years, I was so fascinated by look at these crazy historical, contextual Greekish, whatever arguments, it's so cool, like, look at, like, it's so clear, or whatever. And that's neat. And that's helpful for people that, you know, an audience that really cares about those things are either armchair theologian types, or...
Jonathan Puddle 07:14
Guilty as charged.
Kurt Willems 07:15
Yeah, of course, I love I love speaking, speaking into that community, Pastor types that are wrestling with stuff, even some people that have more education than me, but appreciate the thoughts I provoked, you know, and so, so that's certainly still a joy. But along the way, I realized that if that's all I'm about, that's not that's a voice that I have online, that isn't true of the experience I'm having with God, and what the experience I'm having with God to be integrative. And so learning to find that pastoral voice that I would have with a person in my church community, and also being attuned to the spiritual formation formations stream, and trying to bring those together. This book was my experiment in that and to be really frank, I know I've done a few of these interviews, I don't think I've said this. So this will be unique to you. Yeah, the first draft, which is, by the way, the only draft my wife read, She surprised me, I didn't know, she surprised me and read. And she's not like someone who goes after nonfiction all the time, and just reads like crazy. Like, she took my first draft of the PDF, that I turned it to the publisher that I then got, like, so much feedback on how to make it more human. And she read that thing from start to finish. She walked in, she had tears in her eyes, she was so pumped on it. And, you know, my wife is a good gauge of like, am I speaking to normal people. And that's not a knock on her as much as she's just been so helpful in that.
Jonathan Puddle 08:48
Sure.
Kurt Willems 08:48
And I mean, she's highly educated, she's got a master's in special education. But when it comes to this niche area, she wants to know, how is it going to help my life be better?
Jonathan Puddle 08:57
Yeah, right.
Kurt Willems 08:58
And she was able to see those things. But at the same time, I was able to kind of hear from her hear from my publisher and realize, I've got to find that pastoral, therapeutic, quirky, inviting voice that exists, I just got to figure out how to massage that further into the pages here and be willing to sacrifice some academic sounding content in the process, which I did. Several of these chapters that are have some high level stuff, used to have higher level stuff, and I'm actually planning on planning on doing a video like a just kind of an uncut raw video on each chapter where I just say, here's what the chapter used to be. Here's some things I cut out. Here's some things to consider if you want to just take next step. So so that's been my process. And, man, it's been a good the creative side of integrating that in a book has been so life changing that I think when I come to book two, whatever that is, I don't know, I keep trying to figure it out and nothing is clear, I'll be able to step in with that voice with a little bit more clarity. And that that excites me even though I have no idea what the content of that book will be at this point. So that's a ramble. But hopefully it gives you a picture of me a little bit.
Jonathan Puddle 10:18
Wow, I love it. Thank you for that. And it's actually it's interesting the way you sum that up, because that that kind of pastoral academic therapeutic is, is what, it's what you get. It's what I'm getting reading it.
Kurt Willems 10:31
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 10:32
And what was very interesting is is lacking from that his memoir, because I think certainly in in the last 10 years of publishing, every book, every Christian book that I've read, on suffering is either a very deep theological treatise, or is a memoir.
Kurt Willems 10:55
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 10:56
The other kind of exception to that would be Pete Greig. The 24 seven prayer guy, who
Kurt Willems 11:06
I have a book on my shelf that I plan to read by him called How to pray. So yeah, no, cool.
Jonathan Puddle 11:11
He is like, because he's not North American, and not within this kind of standard evangelical, charismatic context. His whole starting point is different. And so yeah, he's got a book that came out recently called God on Mute, which is a really beautiful work on suffering. It's driven by stories, countless, countless stories, but it's not his. It's not like his memoir. It's more like 1001 vignettes. But anyway, what was so what is striking to me about your work, is that it feels personal, without being like a personal memoir of Kurt Willem's life. And that's like, memoirs are fine. I love memoirs too. But this was just notably different. And it was like very intentional. And I felt this balance of like I'm being equipped to understand. And I'm being invited to see Jesus, I'm being invited to reimagine scripture. And, and I'm being given some some practical therapeutic tools that I can use on myself, that I can use to heal that I can also use to understand. It's like, actually, just, you know, just before we started recording, you were telling me that you recently received a diagnosis for an issue that have been plaguing you for a while.
Kurt Willems 12:30
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 12:31
I was just thinking about that in light of your book, how, how important and freeing it is, when we receive a diagnosis. That moves us out of that, like, Am I crazy? Is there something that's uniquely and undefinably broken, about me? And it felt like what you've done, at least in the first part of the book (because I haven't I haven't read very far into it), but in the first part, at least, I felt like you were offering a really hope filled diagnosis. Like, everything is not okay. Maybe Maybe you haven't paid attention, like the world is really hurting and wounded. And that is not your fault. And sometimes God feels really distant. And sometimes God is really hard to spot in the details of our lives. And if you've ever felt that, you're okay. Yeah, I think that's what I felt like you were telling me and I was like, Yeah, I need to take a deep breath right now. This is good.
Kurt Willems 13:32
Yeah. Oh, my gosh, you know, one of the one of the things I do and it's good that you mentioned, like that first part of the book, is I try to really, in the first four chapters, I'm trying to really say, look, the world is supposed to be one way. It's a different way. I've experienced the different way. You know, I share a couple of stories. So so I make clear, like I say like, this isn't a memoir, but I'm going to share anecdotal situations in my life that hopefully connect these points together. And so I share a bit of my trauma at the beginning of the book, and, and really, in doing that, what I'm trying to do is say, You're not crazy on the one hand, right? Like, like, of course, everything is falling apart. Of course, this world's broken, of course, you feel disconnected and distant from God. Like that's, that's real. And let's start with what's real. And then at the same time, can we can we unpack God's desire, God's invitation, God's longing, and do that through the person of Jesus, especially by emphasizing that he was human too. And that's good news. Not bad news. It's good news that Jesus was human, and is human. And it's good news that we're human, and being human is good. So let's get the narrative out of our mind that your humanity is a limitation—your humanity is your destiny. And that's really the foundational place I want to start from. Because we have such a negative view of human nature, physical bodies, all of that, that we have recycled in various forms of Christianity. And it's not just evangelicalism that did this. I mean, various forms of Christianity have done this at various points along the way. And what we're seeing positively, is a reclaiming of our image-bearing potential, you know, people are starting to see, as they read Scripture, that part of a world that's very good is human beings created in God's image, and part of a world that will be very good again, is human beings being renewed in God's image. That starts today. And eventually through resurrection will be complete. And so let's lean into that. Let's lean into the Jesus who shows us exactly what it could look like, for a human to do it perfectly. That word has baggage, but that's the best word I can come up with. Like, if you want to know the kind of human you're destined to become. Look at Jesus. I know you're not a Palestinian Jew, necessarily. You're not a man necessarily. You're not a first century person, probably or for sure, right, like, but you are human. And Jesus wants you to be even more so. And that's the invitation of the gospel.
Jonathan Puddle 16:28
Come on, man. Yes! You wrote, I wrote this down, "Contrary to what many of us feel sin is against our humanity, not a part of it."
Kurt Willems 16:40
Oh, I said that you said that?
Jonathan Puddle 16:42
You said that! Those were your words.
Kurt Willems 16:44
That's pretty good, huh.
Jonathan Puddle 16:45
Cuz I was like, I, and I'm so with you, right. And I've done as you know, I've done my own work, my own writing on this. But everybody comes at it with a different lens. And the way you said that, like sin. You know, you're talking about Shalom, and you're talking about peace and the way that God has created things to work, and sin opposing that stuff. And sin not being a part of it. I'm just like, man, I think the programming runs deep for some of us, right, that, that we are wretched, that sin is all that we can expect. That ummm... Can I wonder if you keep keep talking about this?
Kurt Willems 17:30
Oh man, there's so much here. Oh, my gosh, you know, I didn't in the book, I don't go into original sin and theories about that. But you know, I think that the toxic version of the doctrine of original sin really lingers large for people who grew up in Christianity in a lot of situations. And yet, I don't know. I mean, I look at Jesus, and if Jesus is what humanity is supposed to be, and we get this throughout the New Testament, I mean, this isn't just like, ooh, what if Jesus is the kind of human we're supposed to be? It's actually pretty explicit. If we look for it, then then, oh, my gosh, why would we ever attribute sin to our human nature? Sin is the disruption of what it means to be human. You know, we have this phrase, and in just casual cultural conversation, I had a really bad day, it was awful, you know, and I flipped someone off because I got cut off on the road, I just feel like a terrible human being or whatever. And then your friend says, Oh, don't worry about it, you're only human. Well, we've like taken the most beautiful, like picture of who we're supposed to be. And we've attributed it to our lack instead of our abundance. And the way of Jesus is about saying, "Your humanity is your abundance, your lack is the thing that is holding you back from discovering more of that abundance." And Jesus says, Let me liberate you from the shame that holds you back. Let me liberate you from the the... man... so much the trauma, and not not make it magically disappear. But let me help you step into both your past traumas and the traumas that you'll face in a very hard world of various levels and various kinds. And let me equip you to stand in those situations, feeling, feeling the full impact of them, while also saying, Jesus has an invitation in this for me to become more like Him. And Jesus would never want this for me. But Jesus is so good, that Jesus will take the broken stuff, the stuff that is against God's will in the world, all suffering in my opinion is against God's will in the world. God is so good, so clever, so magnificent, so beautiful, so kind, so generous, that God still says, even where there's junk, I'm going to reclaim it and reshape it. And it's going to be formative for your flourishing in some way. Even If I can't give you all of the things I wish I could right now, in a world like this, so yes, you lost someone to disease, that sucks. God, God cries over that. God feels that. And so God says, okay, as much as I want to bring that person back to you, or erase that memory, or take away those scars, before the resurrection, that's just not on the table. But what is on the table is I'm going to walk with you with deep, courageous empathy. And I'm going to show you that I get what you're walking through, and I can show you a path forward through it. To me, that's the gift of seeing the Jesus in the New Testament who is human. And so I came to this book, and no, I didn't write about Paul, I didn't write about revelation or any of these hot topics, because I said, Man, where have I encountered God? How can I frame that for people in ways that are creative and interesting? And how can I unpack my own pain as part of the therapeutic process in my own journey. And so that's what people are going to see on these pages is some of those things and I don't know, man, I I don't think I'm fully human. I think it's going to take a resurrection for me to feel like I am fully fully human. And that's not a negative thing. That's about invitation to process. And I'm okay with that. Because maybe tomorrow I'll be just a bit more human than I was today. And Jesus says you can do it you can be that person.
Jonathan Puddle 21:25
Yes. Come on. Oh, man, my spirit's soaring bro.
Kurt Willems 21:30
Praise the Lord. Great.
Jonathan Puddle 21:31
I've been doing this Bible study with you know, the Open Table conference guys: John MacMurray and John Behr, Brad Jersak, Paul Young.
Kurt Willems 21:40
Yeah, I've heard of that. Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 21:42
Cherith Nordling. Bunch of really fun kind of theologians and thinkers. John Behr is this orthodox scholar and priest. And one of the things he says, he's been saying to us is, you know, you know, dying to self, choosing to die to self is a paradox, right? Like, how can you intentionally choose to not make intentional choice?
Kurt Willems 22:06
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 22:07
To die to yourself. So. So he's like, we lean into, into this Christ, we lean in to our resurrection life. And and that's our part for here. But ultimately, we've got to trust that he is going to resurrect us from the dead.
Kurt Willems 22:21
Amen.
Jonathan Puddle 22:22
And that's the completion of humanity, it's his work, not our work.
Kurt Willems 22:27
That's right. That's right. And it's very important to frame it that way. People could hear the language of "you can become more fully human tomorrow than you are today" as though I lack something today, or I'm not enough today, or I'm a dehumanized mess or some weird shame-inducing message. And that's certainly not what's happening. What I desire from what I'm saying, rather, it's, I may feel like I can't quite figure all this out. And it's okay. God sees me as beloved anyway, not in spite of, but because that's enough. And so yes, it will take a resurrection to fully get that experience of humanity, like Jesus has that experience of humanity. But man, we get to enjoy the early fruits of that through the the power and presence of the Spirit of Jesus. And that, that is an invitation away from shame, not towards it. Away from lack and towards abundance.
Jonathan Puddle 23:28
Yes. Okay. One of the stories that you were... one of the things that you brought out early in the book that relates to this, that, that I'll just share a little bit of this weird quandary that I feel like I've been formed out here, okay. Because you're very honest about the times that Jesus feels absent.
Kurt Willems 23:47
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 23:48
Both both in our personal stories, when we've experienced horrific things, as well as in kind of the therapeutic healing process, when we go back to try to find maybe through like an Ignatian experience, where was Jesus in the story? And then, of course, in the wider world, when we look around, we're like, Where is God in a pandemic, all that kind of stuff, like you're very, very honest about that. And I appreciate that. In my upbringing, I don't know, I don't want to say that I was explicitly taught this, but one of the things that happened in my own piecing together of the bits and pieces that I was taught, was a, I was given this kind of similar Ignatian practice. You know, I was taught fairly, I was taught as a teenager, to seek the Lord and find the presence of God within painful memories. That was kind of a normative practice within the tradition that I grew up in. And I'm thankful for that. However, you can only teach a teenager so much.
Kurt Willems 24:53
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 24:54
And it seems that what happened in my framework was that if we couldn't find [Jesus]... Well, that was our fault. If we couldn't see Jesus that was a product of just how sinful we were, because, you know, we've really been blinded to the presence of God.
Kurt Willems 25:14
Wow.
Jonathan Puddle 25:15
And it's this weird double bind. Because on the one hand, I feel like I was we were taught, you know, God is with you, God is with you, God loves you, God is for you. But also, like, sin is really serious. And sin separates you from God. And, and God, you know, like, and like, you're now really tainted, and especially if you can't find him and so it's almost kind of like,
Kurt Willems 25:36
So many feelings!
Jonathan Puddle 25:37
Right? So many feelings. And I'm still working through some of that. And I'm unpacking it with my therapist. I mean, he said to me, I can't say on this show exactly what he said to me because of because of the strong language. But basically, he said to me, there you were, Jonathan, just starting to come into your confidence as a wonderful human being. And some of that evangelical purity teaching came along and messed you up.
Kurt Willems 26:05
Man, man, I mean, even the narrative of being separated from God. Being separated from God's love. Oh, I mean, have they not read Romans 8? Like there's nothing like nothing? Oh, wow.
Jonathan Puddle 26:26
So I think, I think you obviously you can respond to that however you like, but but one of the things that struck me was how honest you were about God's absence. You know, you walked us through a story of your own trauma and your response to it through the Ignatian process, "Jesus show me where you are in the story." And I fully expected you to be like, Jesus was here, blocking the blows, but you're like, I'm struggling to find Jesus.
Kurt Willems 26:50
Yeah, yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 26:51
And I'm like, Oh, yeah, that feels way more honest.
Kurt Willems 26:55
Wow. Wow, thank you for for sharing that. And that is honest. You know, I think more often than not, when we're experiencing trauma or trying to reframe past trauma, how the heck do you find Jesus in the worst of situations? You know, I just... Look, it's hard to find Jesus, when things are going good! You know what I mean? Like, life is normative, things are good. I just got the promotion at work or whatever, whatever it is, like, my wife actually thinks I'm cool. My kids are like, awesome. You know, whatever, whatever is lighting your fire that week. You know, finding finding Jesus, when we're on highs is like, well, I've experienced Jesus through my wife who's been kind to me this week. Well, great. I affirm that impulse. Absolutely. But you know, it. Jesus isn't present physically, so so like, it is already hard, depending on your predisposition towards God, because of how you were raised, depending on your personality type, and how you connect with God more naturally. Are you... are you more experiential by nature? Are you more analytical by nature? I mean, all of this stuff on a regular positive, decent day, finding Jesus connecting with Jesus is very hard. You add a layer of complexity through pain, suffering trauma? Why, why why questions. Man, it's no wonder that Jesus is hard for people to experience at times. And yet, he does show up sometimes. And so what do we do with that? What? What is the difference between those moments where he does and doesn't show up? The honest answer to that is, no one really knows. But if the biblical tradition, and the experience of many other followers of Jesus who have gone before us, or maybe a few steps ahead of us is true, somehow God can be experienced, God can be found. But it's not always on our convenient sort of terms. It's, it's messy, it's surprising, it's shocking, it's out of nowhere. And then it's silence for a long time. You know, and it can we be content with a God who is willing to be silent most of the time, while at the same time being vocal a lot of the time as well, but in all kinds of very nuanced, complex ways. And so so that's, that's a bit of a ramble to say that, let's just be honest about the fact that when we suffer, it's not like, oh, and Jesus is there and so I feel better and life is good. That's a bunch of crap. That's fake. What's real is your suffering. You want to believe Jesus is there but why in the heck would you be suffering if Jesus was really there in the first place? Then we, then we have to break down the kind of world we live in, then we have to break down the complexities of this age in tension with the age to come, you know, there's a lot of things we have to start sitting with. And yet at the end of it all, somehow I believe Jesus is still good. Jesus is for us. Jesus wants to see people flourish through suffering and beyond it.
Jonathan Puddle 30:19
And let me say to the listener, and to you, that that comes through in your writing, that belief that that whole reading the book is echoing hope. Because sometimes we have theologians says, you know, something like what you just said, you know, ultimately, we have to hold it in the tension between blah blah blah, it can feel cold, right? It can
Kurt Willems 30:36
Oh, yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 30:37
Well, thank you for that cosmic truth. While I watched my child succumb to this disease.
Kurt Willems 30:43
Oh, my gosh, yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 30:44
But that's not the way you're, you feel.
Kurt Willems 30:46
Not at all. Oh, not at all.
Jonathan Puddle 30:48
And that comes through very, very clearly, the embodied and practical hope. How have you come to that? Like, what, why? Why are you a person who embodies hope?
Kurt Willems 30:59
Hmm. So I, I experienced a lot of trauma as a child, I, when I was a kid, my parents divorced really early. And by the time I was about 5, my mom had a boyfriend who was abusive, alcoholism, all that stuff. So from ages 5 to 11, I, when I was with my mom, which was most of the time, lived in a lot of fear. I experienced physical violence, and certainly emotional violence on a regular basis and physical violence, whenever it could or could not, you know, it just pop in, you wouldn't even know when it was gonna happen. And, man, that really what I had to do, as I've, like, fell in love with Jesus, in a fresh way as a teenager, you know, several years after all of that was over, during those early formative years as a teenager, where I gave my life like that whole, like recommitment thing that some people go through, like I thoroughly had that it led to a call to ministry, it led to a lot of really beautiful things. And during those years, I would say, the years leading to us moving to Seattle back in 2013. That whole time, my approach to my past pain was: That happened over there. Jesus had a purpose for it. And I can now reframe what happened back there in light of how it's equipped me to be a different kind of person. That was my whole framework. And so I had healed from it. I had, I had been restored, I've been lifted out of the bad, and now life was going to be good. And you know what the truth is, I used to believe this myth that because of Jesus, all the bad stuff would stay back there. What I realized is the way that the pain crept into my own life and how I dealt with my marriage, how I postured myself in stress, in ministry, stress in family relationships, where things would pop up that I thought I'd, you know, had been dealt with already. Of course, it's their stuff to share. So I never, I never share on behalf of others, without permission, but it would all pop up and I'm like, "What the heck, God?" Like, I thought we'd walked this through. And now I'm in my mid 20s, and I am, I'm victorious. I am walking through... I'm the testimony, the story of a survivor. And now I can tell other people who are struggling, "You can survive too!" You know, that was the whole framing. To be really honest with you, I think that actually was beautiful. But it was the stage I was in then. And what happened as we moved to Seattle, and I started noticing the ways that my past pain, both church pain and childhood pain, I would say, started to creep into how I live my life daily, I struggled to be present to my daughter, my little tiny toddler, I have a daughter sitting in front of me. And my brain is saying, get off the couch and play with her. And my body is saying you can't, you can't, you're frozen, you're stuck. And so being present started being a problem. And that sent me into therapy office at the same time I had developed a relationship with a spiritual director as all these things came together at the right time, during the early years here in Seattle for us, and all of a sudden as my therapist said, It's kinda like a spiral. You know, he said something to the effect of to paraphrase, "Kurt, your, your process of healing was one sort of level of the spiral. But what you're being invited to is to keep going down the spiral and circling around your trauma in ways that eventually not fully because that's not possible in this life, but eventually get you to a place where you're coming through that trauma with a lot more honesty about the the evil that it was a lot more often. about the impact, but it continues to bear on your heart, mind and body and an invitation to instead of simply reframing it, to reintegrate your whole person into the kind of person who is postured to love God in a new way to love your family in a new way, and to love yourself in a new way." And that journey, that more recent journey has really given birth to the kind of themes I explore here in the book, for sure.
Jonathan Puddle 35:30
We'll take a quick break so I can just say thanks to everybody who supports the show. This show is made possible by my supporters on patreon.com, you can give monthly or annually, and my latest supporters are Ginger and Margie! Thank you so much, Ginger and Margie for signing up. And thank you to everybody else who chips in, whether you're giving $3 a month or $50 a month, you are a blessing to me, and you make these words that go out to everybody possible. So thank you so much. Friends, if you're not currently supporting the show, would you consider it? You can go to patreon.com/jonathanpuddle to sign up, you can give monthly or annually. $3 a month will get you in. It'll also give you access to the B-Sides of the show, which you'll hear about at the end. Thanks everyone, once again. Let's get back to Kurt. Thank you for sharing that. That's beautiful. Yeah.
Kurt Willems 36:19
Thank you.
Jonathan Puddle 36:20
Has that journey, you know, inward and and with those parts of your own story, how has that changed your, your theology? Or how has it affected your your relationship with God?
Kurt Willems 36:39
That's beautiful. Um, you know, I was already on a theological trajectory that I think complements the emotional work that I've done, almost as if it prepared me to do that courageously. So So I stepped into that office with less Bible baggage than maybe others would. I didn't believe already at that point that God caused my pain, that God wanted my pain, that God had a purpose for my pain, that all things work together. And the Calvinistic vision of God's... You know what God wants, but rather that God is in unique partnership with humankind and humankind has been endowed with choices. And when you get enough human beings and enough non-human beings making choices every single day, the web of freewill intersects with God's perfect will for each human being. And so, knowing that God didn't want me to hurt, but that God was invited me to name what was real, which was the hurt, and then to walk with Jesus through it, that changed everything about my experience of God, I moved from a deep commitment to what we've already talked about like my ideas, to, to integrating those small, occasional parts of myself that were very experiential, you know, I'd have this deep moment with Jesus or this deep season with Jesus, and then it'd be so like, high level intellectual that I'd feel guilty after a while of not having those integrative sort of like experiential, charismatic / contemplative moments, or whatever you might call them. And I think what's come out the other side, for me, has been this sort of, yeah, the integration is the word I'm going to keep coming back to where, look, I don't have deep powerful moments with God every single day of my life. But I want to be awake to the possibility every single day of my life and I tried to be. I'm not always I, I fail. I have shadow sides that I'm still wrestling with, I mean, I'll tell you what, anxiety is still real in my life. And, and so the old Jesus would have been a source of freeing me from anxiety, this renewed sense of Jesus is walking with me when I'm anxious. And it being okay that I'm anxious and letting that impact me. And then what what kind of person am I as I move beyond it? So that, that to me is man just massively freeing? And you know, this book is about an unfinished, unfinished me and a beautifully invitational Jesus who's okay with it. So that's yeah, that's been my experience. ,
Jonathan Puddle 39:35
Mhmm, thank you. I love that juxtaposition of the Jesus who frees and the Jesus who walks beside.
Kurt Willems 39:45
Yeah, wow.
Jonathan Puddle 39:46
Right that that and coming closing the loop to what you said earlier like those those two Jesus', of all the many Jesus's we may discover in our life...
Kurt Willems 39:58
Yeah, yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 39:59
...are real. And good in, in those seasons. Right? Right? Like when you're... when you're 16, 17, even in your 20s... Like, I feel like what we need to be told is Yeah, you can get free from this.
Kurt Willems 40:14
Yes.
Jonathan Puddle 40:14
Like, I don't think you could have told me at that age, "You're gonna, it's possible that this thing will hang around. But you will learn." I'm like, No, just get me the hell out.
Kurt Willems 40:28
That's right. Oh, absolutely.
Jonathan Puddle 40:30
I didn't have... I couldn't, I couldn't, that wouldn't have been good news to me at that time.
Kurt Willems 40:34
Right, right. Absolutely. I mean, it's like, it's, this is a terrible analogy and reeks of purity culture. So I forgive me listener already in advance, but it's kind of like that, that old myth of, you know, once you get married, you're not going to have lust problems anymore, because you can have sex, right? It's those those mythical futures that if I have this, then that is going to be so much easier that eventually you find have to be purged, and they're helpful for a season but not helpful forever, right? Dude, you're nailing that. Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 41:08
Eight or nine years ago, I was coming out out of the first season in my life of really severe depression and anxiety, I got major workplace burnout and panic attacks, the whole bit. And it was new for me and terrifying. And I remember one day, like, "God, you've got to fix me, God, you've got to put me back together. God, you've got to heal my broken mind." And I felt quite clearly this, this prompting from the Spirit, "Jonathan, what if I didn't?" And it wasn't like a rhetorical it was, it was what... what would you have to do? If I didn't just fix you?
Kurt Willems 41:46
Wow.
Jonathan Puddle 41:46
And so I said, I felt like well, I would have to rely on you every moment of every day just to function.
Kurt Willems 41:56
Yup.
Jonathan Puddle 41:57
You know, and as I answered the question, I was like, ooooh.
Kurt Willems 42:02
haha.
Jonathan Puddle 42:03
Appart from me you can do nothing, says Jesus.
Kurt Willems 42:08
That sounds so much like Jesus, though. Oh, yeah. Dang it. And yes. all at the same time. Wow.
Jonathan Puddle 42:18
Right. Yeah, seriously. Thank you. Thank you for that again, you. You mentioned non-humans
Kurt Willems 42:26
Hmm, yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 42:28
What does that mean, to you?
Kurt Willems 42:31
Ah, well, it means every molecule in creation for sure. But it also... Yeah, I'm one of those people who still believes in angels and demonic forces and a quasi personal devil. You know, I don't I think even in the book, I say, I'm gonna say that satan with a lowercase s just so you know, it's a title. So I'm not like that pitchfork, dude, like, he's out there somewhere to get us. But there are these real forces that are have some semblance of personhood, I suppose, that I believe are making choices every day. You know, in the, in the Hebrew Bible, sometimes they're called the Council of the gods. And they become these forces that are some sometimes framed as big and cosmic like powers and principalities. And sometimes the minions of those creatures, the, these little demons that are just hurting people, especially marginalized people, you see that in the Bible, that the people that are at the margins are the people that are often most afflicted. Not because of sin, but because of the vulnerability, that and the negative kind of vulnerability that they've been forced into by empire, or by religiosity that ignores the heavy boot of empire when it comes to the most vulnerable and so, so yeah, I, I really have this sense that when you pair human choices, which I playfully say in the book, there's like, fun little studies that talk about there being 35,000 choices a human makes every single day, I don't know that that's actually accurate. I, you know, I'm not going to like, stick my my flag in the ground on that. But it's fun, it's playful, it's interesting. And so when you like, add up 35,000 choices a day, you get 700 and something trillion for every human on the earth, if you collectively... it's in the book, I don't remember math, you know. Actually, here's how writing works: if you're, if you're an author, and we're gonna go traditional route, listen to this. I had 35,000, right. But then I had like an old number for the global population. So when this book went to copyright, they're like, hey, that's really great. But we're gonna change these numbers because there's a new study out. And I'm all, what you're amazing, you know, so anyway, I don't know what the right number is, but it's in the book because people fact checked it for me. But here's my point: You pair all of those choices, with the real situation of you know, this heavenly sphere of reality, however, we might talk about that, where demonic forces and angelic forces also have freewill, to make choices that affect real world things in ways that we can never fully understand. That is a big web that God has ingrained into the fabric of creation. Rather than creating a system of robotics, where humankind and even the angelic creatures are pre-programmed to be basically morally good, God was willing to take the risk on basically morally not-good in all situations, so that people could really have freedom, conditioned by this web of Free Will. So so I'm getting too philosophical. But here, here's the basic point: if angels, demons, the satan, human beings, if we all are making these choices all the time, my freewill right now in this moment has been conditioned by the way those forces have shaped where I was born, where I was given privileges, all the stuff in my story, there's shaping, there's things that are beyond freewill, that are caused by the web of freewill. And then there's the within that system, I'm going to make choices every single day, I make a choice to brush my teeth, or forget to brush my teeth, or, you know, every little choice shapes how I navigate that. And God has decided to say, this is the world I want right now. But anytime I can break through the web of choices, where there is a space, there is a hole in that web where I can heal, I do. No wonder some people can get healed and some don't. And we pray the same way for both. Well, there's factors perhaps, that we can't quite get our minds and hearts around, that if God were to push all the way through, there'd be something going on. To use language that's not really the right language, but it sounds cooler: in the space-time continuum, that would involve God being coercive where God has chosen not to be so. So there's all of these things that go on. And really, if that's true, and this is honestly one chapter in the book, where I really try and help frame some of this. If that's true, then God knows certain things could happen. But freewill says God gives space for other things to maybe happen instead. And God responds perfectly with those resources. However, God can, in the process to bring as much good as possible. So that's a weird philosophical rant, I went all kinds of different directions. But if you imagine all of those choices being made, and then God having to be all love, all good, navigating the world towards the day where God says, okay, those choices are now going to be interrupted by final coming, resurrection, restoration of the cosmos, all that stuff, then yeah, we have a world that's messy by design, but not by God's ultimate will for it, if that makes sense.
Jonathan Puddle 48:15
Yeah, that's... thank you. That's really great. I love that. And I don't know that this is important for every listener, but for some of us, it is. Right? Like, and then for every reader, like, especially, especially, I think those of us who grew up in a charismatic healing tradition, or...
Kurt Willems 48:30
Yeah,
Jonathan Puddle 48:30
...or any sense where God has been promised. Any Word of Faith even kind of leaning into prosperity. Like for some of us, we were really kind of promised this bill of goods regarding what God will do. And while we've had to journey with that stuff... it's God's goodness was hinged upon the delivery of some of those things. And it's been complicated for us to uncouple the guarantee of healing from the goodness of God, which I want to hold on to, you know, and obviously, if you've been raised in a different tradition, then you may have this... may not be for you. But I'm really glad that you brought that out. I love the way you explain that even just my brain was going. Isn't that fascinating? Coming back to the Jesus, you know, the Jesus who sometimes frees, the Jesus who walks with us... how that interfaces philosophically and in reality, with this web, of actors and agency, where there are times where God there are certain factors and forces like gravity and time that we're usually not going to push against, that we may desire, that we may desire to push against. And we may say, God, can we roll the clock back on that natural disaster God? And some of those dynamics and systems are gonna just be things that God walks through with us.
Kurt Willems 50:03
That's right.
Jonathan Puddle 50:04
But there are other dynamics and systems that God opposes. Right? And that some that God opposes sovereignly and breaks in, like, we see at the cross, and God defeats and disarms.
Kurt Willems 50:18
That's exactly right.
Jonathan Puddle 50:19
And then somewhere in the middle, maybe I don't know, if you're visualizing the continuum that I'm is visualizing. God says, okay, so racism, and these different systems of oppression, we're going to disarm and destroy through your work, like...
Kurt Willems 50:38
Yeah!
Jonathan Puddle 50:38
My work is going to be embodied in you guys. And I'm going to walk with you. And we're going to free people from this, like, it's both and.
Kurt Willems 50:49
yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 50:50
So that's where I was going, when you were saying all that stuff, in my head. So thank you.
Kurt Willems 50:54
Lovely. I mean, it makes me again, I alluded to this verse earlier. But I'm thoroughly convinced, and this is nerdy based on Greek words, but, but I'm thoroughly convinced, if you look at the NIV footnote in Romans 8:28, where it says, instead of all things work together for good, it says something like, "An all things, God works with those for the good." And, and, and its partnership language, in the context of you know, a few verses earlier, Paul's like, creation is groaning, but it's going to find freedom when the sons and daughters of God find freedom, which is the resurrection, and that renewal of creation stuff. And then and then God says, look, by the power and groaning spirit within you, you're invited into partnership, into the spaces you're talking about where the world groans, so the the hurting spaces of racism and, and these are invitations to do the work together empowered a different way. And if this book would have been on Paul, I'm sure it would have had a whole section on this particular concept in this framing. And so Dude, I'm, I'm right there with you. And, and there are times, you know, not everything. God does intervene in certain ways. But there, that's a mystery as well. But yes, so this isn't a hands-off God. This is a God who I prefer. A God of empathy more than I prefer a God of control. And that to me, is the the reframe when it comes to this issue of why suffering happens.
Jonathan Puddle 52:34
Yes! Friends, Kurt's book comes out very soon. It's called Echoing Hope: How the humanity of Jesus Redeems our Pain. Kurt, I'd love for you to pray for us. First, tell us where folks can follow you and jump on everything that you're doing.
Kurt Willems 52:52
Wow. What a fun, fun conversation. Yeah, so you can find me at... well, any of the social media networks, Kurt Willems. And the other place, of course, you can find me as on my website, theologycurator.com. You can find my podcasts there. You can find links to the book there. And if you're really interested in the book, of course, echoinghope.com, will get you right there, you can check out early chapters, I'm going to be posting more resources connected to the book there. A couple of films have come out about it already: a short trailer, and also five and a half, six minute reflection for me. And so you're welcome to check all that out. And I'm grateful for anyone who's interested. And yeah, thanks for your interest as well, my friend and bringing me on here.
Jonathan Puddle 53:49
Oh, my pleasure. I'd love for you to just close out in prayer, brother.
Kurt Willems 53:54
Let's do it. God, sometimes we need to pause. We need to take a deep breath. Just notice. Notice where we are. Notice that you are here. And notice that in every breath we take in your life, your love Your gifts. And so God even now, pray that we can take in a deep, soothing breath of your love. And God I pray that we can release, release our desire to control the world. Release our desire for the next thing that's finally going to fix everything. Release our desire for you to magically make a messy thing picture-perfect. And instead see you in all of your kindness and grace, inviting us to be freed from shame, to be formed by your Father, who declared love over you at your baptism, and to be empowered by the breath of your Spirit with us, wherever we may go. God, we are grateful for love. We're grateful for your humanity, both in its compassion and in its raw physicality. And we ask God that you, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit would be with us here now, in this moment. And beyond. Amen.
Jonathan Puddle 55:55
Amen. Thank you, Kurt. Friends, go hit the show notes. If you'd like to order a copy of Kurt's book Echoing Hope, you'll also find the transcription text there in the show notes. So if you have a friend who's hearing impaired, or otherwise, maybe they find podcasts just don't work for them, you can share this with them in a new way. So super glad that is now possible. Also, I promised that I would explain about the B-sides once again, I have sat down already with my friend Jacob, he listened over this interview. And then we kind of debriefed that. Jacob actually was the person who some years ago gave me a copy of the book Dark Night of the Soul. And so we discussed wrestling with our sense of God being present or absent, kind of unpacked Kurt's comments on suffering. So if you're interested in diving a little deeper into that, you'll find that B-Side conversation, with and my friend Jacob on my Patreon, so you need to join up at patreon.com/jonathanpuddle. $3 a month or $30 a year we'll get you in there. You'll find the B-Side for this interview as well as all the other recent episodes since I launched the B-Sides just a few weeks ago, and the feedback on these B-Sides is really great. It sounds like a lot of you are really enjoying the kind of behind-the-scenes, real, uncut conversations. So very, very glad to hear that. Thank you friends for tuning in. I'm so glad that you were here today. May grace and peace find you. May God surround you. May his presence that we know is actually everywhere, may it be a source of comfort. In the intangible presence, may you find a tangible love. Much love. Grace and peace.