#123: The gifts of neurodiversity (with Daniel Bowman Jr.)
My new friend Daniel Bowman Jr. is my guest this week, and he shares his story of learning he was autistic as an adult. Daniel is an English professor and poet, and he shares the importance of understanding the different ways brains work, the gifts present in neurodiversity, and the importance of moving away from a pathology paradigm. We also discussed the life-giving rhythms of contemplative prayer for folks whose brains desire consistency and repetition. Daniel is the author of On The Spectrum: Autism, Faith, and the Gifts of Neurodiversity.
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Transcription
Daniel Bowman Jr. 00:00
That pathology model is telling people that these autistics are so weird, you can spot them a mile away, because they're just freaks of nature. And the neurodiversity model says, "Actually, all these constellation of... these characteristics and traits are normal for them, and they're not really hurting anybody. So instead of thinking they're so weird, why don't you look at them in a more neutral light and just say they're different? And then say, what's behind those differences? Why does a little kid flap his hands? What's that about?" Or, particularly like a kid who's sensitive to noises. You know, when a neighborhood dog starts barking, and the kid covers his ears and rocks back and forth... he's trying to soothe himself, you know? And so while it looks strange to others, it's perfectly reasonable, actually.
Jonathan Puddle 00:45
Hey, friends, welcome back to The Puddcast with me, Jonathan Puddle. This is episode 123, and my guest today is Daniel Bowman, Jr. We are talking all about Daniel's brand new book On the Spectrum: Autism, Faith and the Gifts of Neurodiversity. And this was a very special precious conversation. I learned so much, and I have really been enjoying Daniel's book. It is so much more than just a discussion about the subject of autism—though that is very important—it is a beautiful work of prose in its own right. Daniel is a poet and a professor, lecturer, and a lover of language, and literature. And you can tell. So I highly recommend this to you. A couple of glitchy audio moments near the beginning, we were having some internet challenges. I did my best to clean it up, but had to leave some of it the way it was just so that you know, meaning was clear. But I'm sure you can forgive me for that. Also happy to be back home. I've been traveling for the last couple of weeks, I made my way all the way up to the Holy Island of Lindisfarne in the north of England, in Northumbria, and spent some kind of some pilgrimage, contemplative time up there and had had a really special time celebrating as well, my friend's birthday. So this is timely as you will uncover as we listen through because we find ourselves back in the space of contemplative discussion. So alrighty, I'll get out of the way here. Have a listen to my new friend, Daniel Bowman Jr. Daniel, I am so excited to welcome you to The Puddcast today. I've been enjoying your book immensely. It's lovely to see your face and get a little bit of time here. Welcome to The Pudcast.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 02:41
It's great to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
Jonathan Puddle 02:43
I like I was just saying off air, this book, On the Spectrum: Autism, Faith and the Gifts of Neurodiversity has been an absolute feast for me. It has been at times convicting. And at times challenging. At times, I have cried from the beauty of your prose and your storytelling, I don't think I need your bio to tell me that you are a poet, to know that you are a poet. And so this is I'm just enjoying this so well. Thank you for, for writing this book.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 03:17
Thank you for that. Sometimes I talk to folks who are much more interested in the autism content, so to speak, then the lyrical form or whatever it is I'm trying to do in the essays. But I really appreciate when someone can sort of value the way that form and content come together and work together for the overall effect. That just that feels amazing to me, because it feels like a piece of creative writing. And it feels like something that's you know, an honest wrestling with autism.
Jonathan Puddle 03:53
Yes, yes. In fact, you quoted someone... I don't know if I can find this really in the speed of this conversation. But you quoted someone about... this about like good art, oh here it is: Blackmur. "Blackmur talked about poetry that not only expresses the matter in hand, but adds to the stock of available reality."
Daniel Bowman Jr. 04:18
Right.
Jonathan Puddle 04:19
And that, that boggled my mind in the most beautiful way. I think you were telling that story in the context of the arts center that you were involved in.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 04:29
Right.
Jonathan Puddle 04:30
Isn't that true, of of good art, that it actually expands the canvas for all of us?
Daniel Bowman Jr. 04:39
Yeah, I think so. I think that's exactly right. I stole that from... let's see, it was in a book of Gregory Wolfe's editorial statements to open up each issue of Image Journal from some years back, and this was in one of those editorials. And yeah, it really stunned me, I teach that in creative writing classes here at Taylor. That's, you know, some of these kids growing up, they, they can't imagine their lives without Lord of the Rings or Chronicles of Narnia or something. And I say, yeah, because that's, that's part of your reality. That's part of your overall life experience that you get to have because someone sat down and crafted it, and made mistakes along the way and tried to fix them. And, you know, earnestly undertook the the the work of the of the artist. And so that's something it does boggle my mind too. And I think about that a lot.
Jonathan Puddle 05:38
Yeah. So that's, I love that you brought that up about Lord of the Rings, and Narnia. And yeah, I see, you've got this great vintage Star Wars poster behind you. Because I don't know if you ever read Dune. But But...
Daniel Bowman Jr. 05:51
No, I haven't.
Jonathan Puddle 05:53
But I mean, that world. And that planet is as real in my conscious imagination as anything else. And I often I often feel a little bit self conscious for that.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 06:06
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, sometimes we have those conversations in my creative writing classes about... have you ever watched a film that fell short of your expectations based on a book? And of course, everyone's hands go up? And maybe that's part of it. The reality is that we get to participate in the creation of meaning, as we read, and those become parts of our mental and emotional and even physical realities in strange ways that I don't quite understand.
Jonathan Puddle 06:37
Yes, that's so true. Okay, so I do also want to talk about the autism content.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 06:42
Sure.
Jonathan Puddle 06:42
And I would love I wonder if you would start by telling us some of your story, perhaps, wherever you would like to go. But I was thinking, even some of your early years, your adult years pre-diagnosis, and then and then the shift.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 07:00
Yeah, you know, in terms of early years, I had to go through when I was writing this book, and this is probably the most healing thing for me. I had a new lens through which to interpret everything that I've been through in my life before. So the story that, the only stories that were available to me to tell myself about myself, were that I was weird. I was oversensitive. I was shy, I was quirky. And all these things when you're growing up, as a boy in a blue collar world as I was, all these things are basically are synonyms for bad or weak or wrong. And so if you have no explanation, you have no language or vocabulary with which to speak about the way your mind works and your body. And, and no understanding of neuro divergence or neuroscience at all, then the stories that you tell yourself about yourself are very limited and very limiting. And the result is that you carry around a lot of shame, I think most autistics do. And so in interviews, over and over and over those themes keep appearing every time a clinician or a researcher interviews an autistic person, they say, "Tell me about your childhood." And basically, they say, I felt like I didn't belong on planet Earth, I felt like an alien. And they use those exact words. And so you carry this guilt and shame. And, and then the, the diagnosis for me really helped me reclaim some of those years and go back and reinterpret those years and say, it wasn't that I was weird or stupid or bad. Just that I was autistic, and my brain might respond differently to, to what's happening around me. And it's neutral rather than a death. And so that it's just powerful. And then even later on in my adult life, the book began... which I think most most good stories begin with some some conflict or some tension. At least under the surface, if not kind of exploding right in front of you. My tension was a crisis in my personal life and my family life when I had had a meltdown and wasn't understanding why I felt so terrified, and afraid and ashamed and awful. And and why can't, why couldn't I just deal with life the way everybody else did? I didn't know anybody else who acted like this. And I thought, I wish that I could just let things bounce off me. When can I how can I get there? Do I need more therapy? Do I need a spiritual director... do I need? What do I need to do? And it turns out that they're all of these things were formed to kind of constellation of traits and characteristics and then I recognize I'm not just a weirdo or a bad person, I just have this brain wiring, and this brain wiring doesn't do well if there's, let's say a sudden shift in routine. Or, or lack of structure, or sensory overload, or whatever it is. And so once I could put all that together, I was able to be freed from a lot of that shame that I carried around with me for many years.
Jonathan Puddle 10:29
That's beautiful. And I'm so sorry, for, for that reality of difference feeling wrong.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 10:39
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 10:41
As a neurotypical person, I, I'm, I think I'm in your debt for taking the time to do the work to educate.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 10:51
Hmm.
Jonathan Puddle 10:52
And so I, I'm, I want to acknowledge that.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 10:55
I really appreciate that. It's, it's some. Yeah, what and then when you learn about this, then the burden is, "Okay. Now people know my story's out there. They are relying on me to educate them and things like that. And what if I don't even know what I'm talking about?" Yeah, I need more years to try to comprehend this. And everything. But these little milestones, like maybe publishing one book, and maybe meeting some people through a podcast like this, or getting an email from a listener later on, which does happen, you know, are just to me are just so shocking, and so beautiful. That's it. It's, it's an amazing journey to be on right now.
Jonathan Puddle 11:34
That's so wonderful. Do you have any thoughts on kind of, I guess, the uniqueness of the journey for someone who learns that they're autistic as an adult, versus the childhood, you know, kind of diagnosis. My neighbor here, right next door, their eldest son is autistic, and he's maybe five years old. And most of my touch point is, is in that realm.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 12:02
Right. Yeah, you know, um, it's just hard to know, it's hard to know how things will play out differently for me, I suppose in my own life. I tell the story, I can't remember which part of the book it's in about a run in I had with my fifth grade teacher that was really traumatic for me. And I think to myself, well, what if this were nowadays? I mean, this guy was from the old school, and it was his way or the highway, what if it were nowadays, and I was a kid and I had a diagnosis, or I had a support network in place, and people just understood that my brain is going to function differently. And were able to accommodate that in some way. Um, the hope is that that's happening in ways that are really helpful. But it's a process and it's a journey. And people don't know what to make of the autistic brain yet. And especially when it's still being formed in childhood. And so you get stories of hostility and people calling police in and harming autistics, because they're afraid that they'll harm themselves or somebody else. And it just seems to be so much misunderstanding, still. So the dream would be that we're making progress, and that we're doing better. And I see signs of that. And that's my prayer for young people on the spectrum that they would have it a little bit easier if I come along, you know, in my 40s, and write a book like this, maybe that will bring about something a little bit better for younger people. But the reality is right now is pretty mixed, you know. It's tough, because I think so many... The people I give a lot of credit to our teachers, you know, in our public schools are working so hard to understand better, and to design learning experiences that will reach lots of different kinds of thinkers. And so I see hope in that. But I also still see so much misunderstanding, and, and it makes me sad. It's just tough. I think especially I might add, quickly, especially when it comes to people of color who are autistic, and women who are autistic, that both are historically under diagnosed, because so many of the diagnostic tools and frameworks are based on data collected from white males, essentially. And so it doesn't always fit. You know, it doesn't always present that same way and other people. And so it's a mixed bag right now, but I like to see the arc bending toward justice, as it were.
Jonathan Puddle 14:30
Yes. Oh, thank you. That's good. One of the pictures that you gave in the book that I found quite helpful was the metaphor of riding a motorcycle versus driving a car. Now I have a friend who rides a motorcycle and he told me once about how much more kind of plugged in and aware of the world you have to be. I've never ridden on a motorcycle. My wife says I'm never allowed. I wonder if you could unpack that metaphor for us and explain a little bit, for those who have no personal connection with understanding an autistic mind or the way...
Daniel Bowman Jr. 15:07
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I think that I appreciate you picking up on that metaphor, I think it's, for me, it's one of the, one of the better ones. I think a lot of the ways I talk about autism in the book are metaphorical, because I'm a creative writer, a poet, I think, in terms of imagery, and all the various kind of, you know, symbols and metaphors that present themselves through the images. So the motorcycle ride thing, I mean, especially my motorcycle, in particular, I have sold it since then, but, but the one that I write about in the book was an old old machine. And so in addition to just being unguarded by a windshield, and the frame of a car, you're really doing a lot of physical work to actually just make the thing go safely. So the the metaphor basically goes like this. When you're, if you're in a regular car, nowadays, they're pretty luxurious. If if a bee happens to fly into your windshield, it's you're not going to experience much discomfort or pain from that. If you hit a pebble, you know, on your back tire, it's probably not going to really do anything much, you won't notice those things. You can have music on, you could be talking through Bluetooth on your cell phone or whatever. And just kind of getting from point A to point B without thinking about it much. That seems to me to be some somewhat fitting for the neurotypical life when I see people who are just sort of happy go lucky or can just kind of get through their days without severe bouts of depression and things like that. The autistic life, on the other hand, people think about it a lot of times first with eye contact, and social skills. They'll be like, oh, yeah, I know, autism, you can't make eye contact, and you're really awkward. And I say well, okay, but a lot of that is intertwined with sensory processing. So for me, if the temperature in the room is too hot, if the sun is too bright, if something is making loud noises, if someone's out mowing their lawn or blowing leaves with a leaf blower, you know, my neighbor three houses down, people in my family may not even hear it, but it's drilling into my skull and just terrorizing me. So that's like being on a motorcycle. If a wasp hits your face, when you're riding a motorcycle at 55 miles an hour down a road, you will feel it, you will experience it. If you hit a small pebble, your life may be in danger. All your senses are fully engaged, all the time, and you're kind of in that fight or flight mode on the bike to keep the thing on the road and to be safe. Almost consistently. And that's kind of how it is for me to go through the autistic life. I rarely, can I ever put it on cruise control, even for a minute.
Jonathan Puddle 18:08
That's a that's a really helpful picture. Yeah, I remember reading that I thought hmm, this is so yeah, there are certainly times where I feel like I'm on autopilot. Or like, again, as a as a person of relative power and privilege, heterosexual, white cisgendered Christian male in North America, you know, there's so little I have to consciously be aware of.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 18:35
Right. Yeah, and I feel that too, I feel all those same privileges a lot of the time and yet the the sheer physicality of, of the sensory world, you know, is is always just in, in overdrive, no matter what. So, that is very, very hard to turn off. Um, sometimes I think when studies look at addictions in autistics, for example, more and more studies are looking at stuff like that. What makes sense to me is that people just simply want to come down from that sensory overload experience all the time, you know, and just be just be evened out a little bit. And so, you know, meds can do that for some folks. And some people self medicate for that kind of thing. But I understand the impulse behind it. It's tough to keep going when you feel like that all the time.
Jonathan Puddle 19:27
Yeah, yeah, certainly. This is a little bit maybe of a left field question, but it's just something that I've been chewing over philosophically, I'd be interested to know if you have any thoughts on it. In this kind of, we could say post-COVID—I recognize it may not be post for everybody—
Daniel Bowman Jr. 19:48
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 19:49
—You know, I'm recognizing that I have far less capacity than I had before. I was talking to a friend and he said all the muscles that he had built up over his career for managing a busy schedule, those muscles seems to have atrophied. I feel much the same... I... All the taxi driving for my children and all the things, it takes much less to overwhelm me now.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 20:17
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 20:18
And then, like, there's no doubt that the world we live in is and has been biased towards neurotypical folks. But but what I'm wondering about is maybe this world that we live in, actually doesn't help neurotypical folk thrive either. Maybe this world actually doesn't really work for anyone.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 20:45
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 20:46
Did you have any thoughts on that? Like just a society level...
Daniel Bowman Jr. 20:49
Yeah. No, I mean, that makes a lot of sense to me, I think, um, I don't know, here in the US. And in Canada, perhaps some of it can be attributed to to the particular state of capitalism that we're in. I feel like the engines are running 24/7. And somebody is getting very wealthy off them but it's not any of us. We're just, we're just putting in our time and trying to live a life. Not just make a living and make money but make a life, make meaning. And that is very, very tough to do under these conditions. Yeah. And I think especially late pandemic, or post pandemic, as it were, many people are coming to realize the limitations that they have emotionally and even physically, and perhaps coming to see their own values in a clearer lights, and maybe, maybe, hopefully, being inspired. You know, what I'm thinking of is makes me think of Makoto Fujimura the great visual artists, the Japanese American painter. His his first book Refractions, talks about when, when September 11, hit in New York City, and he was living right down the street. Suddenly, a crisis, made him reexamine his life. And he said, living in a post 911 world, I thought I was pretty happy just being an artist and getting into a fancy gallery in Chelsea or whatever. And then suddenly, I had to rethink everything. It caused me to question my values and who I am and what I want to accomplish, you know, in my short time on Earth, and so, yeah, it makes sense to me that COVID would have that same impact on us.
Jonathan Puddle 22:41
Yeah, yeah. Thanks for that. One of the things that I thought that was very helpful to me, again, that you did early on in the book was explaining the difference between a pathology paradigm and a neurodiversity paradigm. I would, I would have to admit that the paradigm I was raised with was that autism was this, let's essentially say a sickness. And whether through therapy or in my Christian tradition, we were big on divine healing. And so if you just pray the right prayers, and use the right anointing oil, and you know, did all the went through all the Christian voodoo steps, maybe God would heal you or your child of this affliction. Forgive me for reiterating that language. Could you maybe walk us through again, this pathology versus the the neurodiversity paradigm?
Daniel Bowman Jr. 23:48
Yeah, um, you know, it's tricky because it's, it's, it's never exactly an either or, it's a little bit of both/and. However, if you just take that pathology model, and you look at the the kind of language that's used, and we know that language is so powerful in shaping people's, the stories that we tell about each other. And so the pathology model, and I quote this in the book, I just simply did a real low tech experiment and Googled, you know, "characteristics of autism" or "symptoms of autism." And what comes up is language that feels so dramatically negative, that it just paints you as just a complete weirdo. And then you have to think well okay, if you live with that language for years, what's your what's your what's the story that you tell yourself about yourself? Of course, it's negative. So they say well, you know, has strange voice inflections, has a weird posture, doesn't know how to make eye contact, doesn't know how to talk to people, um, gets obsessed with weird niche interests, and they're painting this picture, those those things are true, after a manner of speaking, but, um, they're not necessarily bad. They're not necessarily hurting other people. If I stim or you know, do a self regulatory behavior like a flapping of a hand or something, it's probably regulating my emotions, and it's not hurting anybody else. It just looks weird to them. So that pathology model, you know, is telling people that these these autistics are so weird, you can spot them a mile away, because they're just freaks of nature. And the neurodiversity model says, actually, all these constellation of these characteristics and traits are normal for them. And they're not really hurting anybody. So instead of thinking they're so weird, why don't you look at them in a more neutral light and just say they're different? And then say, what's behind those differences? Why does a little kid flap his hands? What's that about? Or, particularly like a kid who's sensitive to noises... you know, when a neighborhood dog starts barking, and a kid covers his ears and rocks back and forth, he's trying to soothe himelf, you know? And so while it looks strange to others, it's perfectly reasonable, actually.
Jonathan Puddle 26:11
Yeah. Which I think also belies the fact that the neurotypical, are also trying to soothe ourselves. And either found more, more socially normative addictions or ways to soothe.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 26:28
Haha, right.
Jonathan Puddle 26:28
Or are, are no better, in fact, perhaps worse in touch with our own needs. Yeah. Which I mean, again, I love when people will say things to me like, oh, you know, well, I did this when I was a child, or my parents spanked me or whatever and I turned out fine. And we say these kinds of things. I mean really? Did anyone turn out fine. It seems to me we are all a disaster.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 26:52
Yeah. Well, and there's some, there's some truth in the fact that I don't, I, I don't resent being autistic because honestly, it has taught me to become self-aware at that level, and understand what I need, I think from from spiritual direction, and from straight up counseling and therapy over the years, which I still go into every month of my life. And it's just as helped me so much, you know. And I don't know if I would have had that the desire or the need to seek out that kind of self awareness if if I wasn't different, you know?
Jonathan Puddle 27:30
Yes.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 27:31
So I think it's kind of a maybe a gift of neurodiversity, as it says, in the subtitle.
Jonathan Puddle 27:36
Well, yeah, and your your gift, when you start to unpack some of the gifts of neurodiversity, I found that really beautiful. When you especially as an artist, and you start to talk about, you know, focus, and the ability to really drill down in on something to the exclusion of everything else and... and other gifts. I thought that is, that is really wonderful. And how like us to miss the gifts of people different than us.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 28:02
Yeah. And, you know, it's, it's really relevant to talk about that, because there are people out there who are looking at, you know, stuff at the genetic level, and they're talking about basically eugenics. I mean, there'll be people with money, who can make a designer baby, if they want to, they probably already can. And that means prenatal screening for autism. And if they're able to detect it, some people are going to want to say, "Yeah, you know what, we'll abort that fetus, and we'll wait till the normal one comes along." Well, I'm, in all honesty, be careful what you wish for, because you're seeing oh, people are sitting there scrolling down their new iPhone 13, or whatever it is, I'm like, I guarantee, I can guarantee you that somewhere in Silicon Valley, was an autistic person who solved a problem in the development of that technology that no one else would stick with. And we're just so stubborn and focused that he figured it out, you know, and so we're making these contributions to the world, I believe, and in my case, it would be in the arts, you know, it might be a poem that a handful of people read, but it still feels like a, like a valuable contributions. So it's tough for me when people think, in such all or nothing kinds of ways, you know, about that, because I think, be careful what you wish for.
Jonathan Puddle 29:23
Wow, thank you. That's a sobering example. Thanks for for sharing that. I pastor in church. I read you've, you've spent a, you've been an almost well maybe even more traditions than me. And I would like to think that I've been broadly traveled in the church, but I loved hearing some of your journey. I wonder if you could share some of your journey within the church. Maybe the good and the bad.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 29:49
Yeah, sure. I mean, overall, you know, going through all those different churches and denominations and things over the years was usually just a matter of, we'd move someplace—not as a child, I never really moved anywhere. As a child, I grew up blue collar and stayed in the same town and you know everything for my childhood. But later on, I would move for college, for grad school, for jobs. And just seeking out a community that was meeting me where I was theologically in terms of the evolution of my own thinking about God and everything. And it also had opportunities for service. And so sometimes that would look like you know, what the the place in this town, where I'm teaching high school for a couple years is a Presbyterian Church. So now I'm, I guess I'm Presbyterian for a couple years. It didn't really matter to me too much what that was. On the extremes, I suppose, I was baptized and confirmed in the Roman Catholic Church because I grew up in a in an Irish Catholic town in upstate New York. And later on, to kind of a different extreme, my mom "got saved" as it were in quotes, and took us to a pretty fundamentalist Baptist Church. And so that was a whole different experience. And I began to understand the world of legalism and all that before I had any words for it. And so umm, you know, getting out of those things. And later on in life, I went to college, I went to a Christian college in Rochester, New York, which is a Wesleyan school, Methodist school, as sort of more mainline type stuff. And then, yeah, I've been all over the all over the board since then. Right now, I guess I'll end this by saying, I attend an Episcopal Church, which I really loved. I've been there for a while now. And I think not only does the preaching from the pulpit really challenge and grow me and edify me. And the community is diverse and full of need. And sometimes I feel like I can help meet those needs, in unique ways. But also, I've come to, as an autistic person, I think appreciate the repetition of liturgy, the comfort of the structure of the of the order of the service every week, same thing every time, except during Lent, then it changes a little bit, and then you go back, you know. But that structure has been really nice for me, I really love that. And it provides comfort. I hadn't been in a long time, to be honest, because of COVID stuff. And then I went out to church, I say out because it's 30 minutes from my house. So it's a little bit of a commitment to get out there early in the morning. And the level of comfort, and beauty and richness and texture that I experienced in that service was so powerful for me, it was just like a homecoming. It just felt absolutely incredible. So that's where I am nowadays. And we have a wonderful minister at our church. And she teaches me and challenges me every single week. So it's been, it's been really good. But yeah, I've been to every kind of church you could think of...
Jonathan Puddle 33:08
I love that.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 33:09
...including at one point a big mega church.
Jonathan Puddle 33:12
I love that. We'll take a quick pause so that I can say a big thank you to everybody who supports the show. Shares episodes follows me on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. Big love to Christine, Anna, and Jordan, who are my latest supporters on Patreon. If you don't know what Patreon is, it's an easy way to support people like me who are creating things, putting them out in the world. You can sign up for $3 a month, or something like $30 a year. You can also give more if you'd like. And your support makes all of this possible. As a thank you I offer B-Sides to each episode of The Pudcast, where I sit down with a friend and we go behind the scenes and talk about how the interview happened and how it impacted me and we further just unpack the subject. I also love to send little handwritten cards and thank yous to people who are giving $10 a month and more. So head over to patreon.com/jonathanpuddle if you're enjoying the show and want to be a supporter. Thank you so much. Let's get back to the show. Are there some ways that the church is is failing autistic folk, pretty consistently or not?
Daniel Bowman Jr. 34:24
Um, I yeah, I think probably just a lack of awareness of different brain types. And you know, it's it's a tough, it's tough because of course, you're not going to be able to meet everyone's needs all the time or meet everyone where they're at. If you do one thing and you think you're doing it well in light of an autistic person in your congregation that will probably hit somebody else the wrong way. That's the irony of this whole thing. I have autistic students in my classrooms here at the university, who will be stimming with a with a pen and clicking it and I know I'm the guy that's supposed to be really open to that, because I'm on the spectrum. And yet, it's making me crazy and I can't think and I can't teach. So you know, I do I look at it with a with a sense of humor and a grain of salt. It's, it's tough. I would just say, if there, if any of us are letting each other down in any ways, it's probably because we're, we're not seeking out greater knowledge and wisdom about one another. And so anytime somebody decides to read a book, so called "Own Voices" book, which means that the book is written by a member of that marginalized community, you know, whether it's autism, or we're looking at, you know, indigenous peoples day and things like that, read a book by an indigenous Christian and understand the way that their faith tradition has been in their life and stuff like that. Or someone of a person of color or whatever it is. If we're not learning more about each other as often as we can, then we're then we're all doing a disservice. And so it's not just autism, but I think think everybody you know, so in other words, today's pastor should probably have somewhat of a sociological / anthropological viewpoint, reading some literature never heard anybody, reading great novels and poems from around the world has never, you know, hurt, in fact, helps speed up the process of getting to know all the differences in people I think.
Jonathan Puddle 36:34
Yes.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 36:34
Without being too pie in the sky about it.
Jonathan Puddle 36:37
Yes, I love that. One thing that that does, totally, I didn't see it coming and I loved it was such a beautiful surprise was the chapters on your contemplative spiritual experience. I've also got a rich contemplative practice. I've been to the abbey of the Genesee there south of Rochester.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 36:55
Oh, yeah. I've never actually been there. I've always wanted to I lived right near it for a long, long time.
Jonathan Puddle 37:01
Yeah, I've been once and honestly, I just that's what I'm waiting for, for the US border to reopen. So that I can just...
Daniel Bowman Jr. 37:08
Yeah
Jonathan Puddle 37:09
Get down there with the monks and, and the landscape and the quiet.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 37:14
Awesome.
Jonathan Puddle 37:15
It sounded like, like aspects of contemplative spiritual practice were kind of like a really key discovery for you.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 37:24
Yeah. There's, there's no doubt. Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 37:27
Yeah.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 37:28
And for me, I mean, I think it went with a was when I was living in Cincinnati, and I was in grad school for my MA. You know, I went to a Christian college for undergrad. And so kind of the relationship between literature or art and Christian faith was was maybe more apparent in a kind of everyday way. And then I went to a big Research One university for graduate school, and that relationship was not being examined anymore. It was more about race, and gender, and human sexuality and all these other things. And I really missed the spiritual dimension. I went to church on and off during that time, we went to a couple different kinds of churches, even did some missions work in different parts of the world during that time. But I, I felt like I had lost my way, you know, in some ways. I lost that first bloom of youth in my faith. And I knew that I was in a place where that was gone, and I couldn't get it back. I couldn't become, you can't unring that bell and become a naive 19 year old anymore. You know, you're 25 and you're a little bit jaded. So what do you do? Well, a friend of mine came out to visit from New York, came up to Cincinnati, we and he took me to a church service. And there was this little older man who was preaching, and it just telling stories, and it was super interesting. He's talked like a poet, but he was kind of a preacher, and his name was Brennan Manning. And, yeah, and Brennan Manning really had quite an influence on me when I when I met him, and I shook his hand after that service. And I thought if there are people who are lyrical and poetic and, and contemplative, who are writing books, like Manning is writing, and I ate up all his books instantly after that. And then I got into Henri Nouwen and then I got into Richard Rohr and then I got into Julian of Norwich, everybody, you know, Meister Eckhart, all of it, right? Um, but yeah, I credit Brennan Manning with kind of getting me on that path. And so that changed my life. There's absolutely no doubt that changed my life. And I think even now, I can't write a single essay without quoting Richard Rohr at some point, it's just going to come out, it's become the furniture of my mind and it's just going to be there.
Jonathan Puddle 39:50
That story you shared about ending up down by the lake. You know, even even stripping down and getting in the water. I was just like this is it for me. Like, I, my wife and I lived in Finland for six years. And so there's even something about the sauna and, and the ritual and getting naked and swimming.
Daniel Bowman Jr. 40:13
Yeah!
Jonathan Puddle 40:13
in freezing cold water that, like,
Daniel Bowman Jr. 40:16
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 40:16
Awakens your senses to like, "Oh, yeah, God is everywhere and always has been, of course!"
Daniel Bowman Jr. 40:23
Yeah, it's one of those things where, you know, you're just living your life and doing your thing and then suddenly you end up. It's, it's, it's dusk and you're, you know, swimming in a pond with a monk, who studied under Thomas Merton. You're talking about life. Here's like, this is cool. This is really great.
Jonathan Puddle 40:44
I love it. Daniel, what is umm, what is beautiful and life giving to you right now?
Daniel Bowman Jr. 40:52
I'll tell you, what's the most beautiful thing in my life right now is helping young people in this community. And it... there are a lot of stories that I could tell. There are a lot of stories I could tell, without giving away you know, names and details and things like that. There are some young people here who who just have such great need, they need tenderness and they need leadership and gentleness and affirmation and acceptance. And you know, a couple weeks ago, I spent a number of very, very late nights in the ER with a student who was self harming, and the student is indigenous, and South American, and autistic, and has a lot of intersecting identities that are complicated, and was abused as a child and all these other things. And here I am, I'm sitting in the emergency room with this kid, I say kid, not pejoratively, but you know as a term of endearment. I think the older I get, the more the college kids feel like my own kids, my own daughter is almost 16, is 16 now. I'm sitting in the ER with this kid, and I'm and I'm almost smiling, because it's such an honor and such a privilege to be on the ground helping when there's nobody there. That's it. I'm not trying to pat myself on the back or anything. I just am honored and floored that that's the life that I get to live right now. I like to write and I love to do events like this and talk about craft and storytelling and literature and autism things. But the bottom line for me right now is trying to help this new generation. They're complicated. They're self aware, they understand a lot of times their own baggage. But they it doesn't mean they still know what to do with it. They still need help, you know, they need guidance. And so it's such an honor to be in that position. I absolutely. I wake up just feeling like, like I have a great sense of purpose.
Jonathan Puddle 43:04
That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Friends, I cannot recommend this book to you enough, or Daniel and his work. Daniel Bowman Jr. On the Spectrum: Autism, Faith and the Gifts of Neurodiversity. Daniel, where would you direct people to go to find out about you?
Daniel Bowman Jr. 43:25
I hang out a lot on Twitter and on Instagram. So my handle is Daniel Bowman Jr. @danielbowmanjr on both of those platforms. I guess that you could take you to my website and stuff. But I'm, I'm I'm really thrilled about the work that this book is doing right now and getting into people's hands. And it's enabling me to meet people and have more conversations with with lots of people from all over the place. And that's just thrilling. So find me online and say hi, yeah, I'd love to meet more people.
Jonathan Puddle 43:57
Daniel, as we sign off here, would you pray for us? And I'm thinking for, I guess in my head there's two—obviously whatever the Spirit leads you—but I'm thinking there's, there's those of us who are wanting to help create a more equitable world, especially for our neurodiverse brothers and sisters. But also I'm thinking of, of listeners to the show who are going, "Oh, maybe that describes me."
Daniel Bowman Jr. 44:22
Yeah. Thank you for that. I would I would love to pray. Lord, I thank you for this opportunity to come together with Jonathan today. And you know, I'll never know the seeds that are planted here in a conversation like this, who might be listening and what they might grow into later on and the fertile soil that they may land on. So, Lord, for those who who listen to this podcast, please bless them, honor their desire to to make the world a better place. Honor their desires to get to know themselves better, and if they happen to feel that some of these reflections check boxes in their own lives and that perhaps they're neurodivergent, then please open up a way for them, open up a path for them to find more information and to get help. At least speaking here in the US anyway, the mental health care system is very difficult and challenging to navigate. And sometimes, Lord, the very challenges that those systems present really conflict with the strengths and the weaknesses of people on the spectrum. For example, something as simple as making a phone call can be very challenging. So bless and honor, folks who are coming to be aware of a diagnosis. And then also, I thank you so much for those who are listening and who are saying, you know, as a neurotypical person in the church, we need to make some more room for autistics and folks with ADHD and some of these other conditions. And so I'm just very, very thankful anytime I encounter anyone who wants to do that I just, I just am so grateful for that openness, and for that heart that wants to make the world a better place. Just as we want to make it better for folks who have physical disabilities, you know, and put ramps on our buildings and things, I think of making accommodations for autistic as, as kind of building wheelchair ramps, you know, in our churches and things like that, or elevators, for elderly folks and so forth. So, um, give us a vision and imagination to be able to accomplish that. And just hold us in the palm of your hand. Now, now and always, as we seek to bring the kingdom of God, here to earth. In Jesus' name, amen.
Jonathan Puddle 46:57
Amen. Thank you, Daniel. How good was that? Make sure to go to the show notes and grab a copy of Daniel's book, On the Spectrum: Autism, Faith and the Gifts of Neurodiversity. You'll find the links to buy it on Amazon, there on my show notes. You can get that as well at jonathanpuddle.com/podcast. And you'll find links to go and follow Daniel on Instagram, Twitter, @DanielBowmanJr. He's a wonderful guy, clearly an advocate as you can hear, a compassionate spirit and really doing important work to educate and inform and break stigma. So, so thankful to get to know Daniel, he wasn't someone that I was familiar with, the book came across my desk, and it really, really spoke to me. So I'm thrilled to make that connection now. Alrighty, friends, new interviews coming up your way. Lots more in the pipeline. Glad to have you with us. If you're enjoying the show, please consider becoming a supporter or share it with a friend go tell somebody about the show. And if you have not ever read my book, You Are Enough: Learning to Love Yourself the Way God Loves You. You can find that on my website, JonathanPuddle.com. Thanks for being here. Grace and peace you. We'll talk soon.