#141: What happened to our elders? (with David Tensen)

In episode 141 of The Puddcast, I discuss the process of growing into wise and gracious elders, with the remarkable David Tensen. A chaplain, poet, business researcher and more, David’s latest book Decenter Everything examines what happened to our elders and how we can become people with “fat souls,” able to provide non-judgemental companionship to others by decentering ourselves (and our ideologies, etc.). We reflect on moving into our autumn season, and even contemplate death and how Western aversion to anything to do with death keeps us from living presently.

Order Decenter Everything: The Unconventional Approach to Eldering in an Age of Immaturity, by David Tensen.
Learn more about David’s poetry, research and other writings at davidtensen.com.

Support the show and my other work, at jonathanpuddle.com/support
Check out my trauma-informed 30-day devotional, You Are Enough: Learning to Love Yourself the Way God Loves You.

Grab my latest book, Mornings with God: Daily Bible Devotional for Men (good for women too)

Find every book or resource I’ve talked about recently on my Amazon storefront, in Canada, the United States or the United Kingdom.

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Transcription

[00:00:10] Jonathan: Welcome back to The Puddcast with me, Jonathan Puddle. No Tryphena this time, unfortunately, but she sends her love and greetings. This is episode 141 with my friend David Tenson back on the show. I don't, I'm not gonna engage in a temporal exercise of when you were last here, but it is really nice to see your face and I'm looking forward to sharing some time together here, welcome back to the show.

[00:00:33] David Tensen: Thanks, Jonathan. Yeah, I was thinking when I was looking 1 41, how many episodes ago? I can't remember. But it is good to be with you again and tech has slightly upgraded since, so

[00:00:44] Jonathan: That's correct. You get to see both of our faces. Uh, we're so sorry, but we tried our best. You see, we both grew up in sun loving countries in the south, and our skin has, you know, and our beards, you know, we have a similar amount

[00:00:57] David Tensen: I was looking

[00:00:58] Jonathan: of,

[00:00:59] David Tensen: Yeah, you, you've got the. You remember Third Day that band? Yeah. You've got the, you've got the lead singer's sort of original beard looking thing there. That's what I was thinking. Wow. You,

[00:01:14] Jonathan: this is good. We're already showing our, our evangelical charismatic upbringing credentials. Uh, what other bands can we start mentioning? So, last time you were on the show, we were reflecting on a number of things as ever we do on The Puddcast, but we were working through your poetry

[00:01:29] David Tensen: Hmm

[00:01:30] Jonathan: was in a, in, in some ways how I'd connected with you. It was, but then we discovered all these these touch points in our earlier ministry lives

[00:01:39] David Tensen: hmmm

[00:01:40] Jonathan: that we were, we'd come through very similar charismatic, healing communities. Um, actually Lawrence Prasad, who was the gentleman who, who dropped your name to me, we caught up in Melbourne

[00:01:52] David Tensen: Did you

[00:01:53] Jonathan: over a year ago.

[00:01:54] David Tensen: love Lawrence? Hmm.

[00:01:56] Jonathan: Yeah. What a gem of a human being.

[00:01:57] David Tensen: Yep.

[00:01:59] Jonathan: And so watching your journey again, the last few years, I've seen you release more poetry. I've seen you, uh, I think finish, uh, some, some further education and be involved in ongoing, uh, business and mentorship kind of work. I know you're also involved in aged care.

[00:02:18] David Tensen: Mm.

[00:02:19] Jonathan: and your most recent book, Decenter Everything, uh, really ministered to me this this last few months when I was reading through it. And, uh, so why don't you give us, for, you'll be new obviously, to many folks listening in, give us a mile high view of who David Tenson is and what he does in 2025 whatever.

[00:02:43] David Tensen: All right. Yes, some context. Uh, um, 47. Been married for 27 years, got married young. Uh, have three children, 21, 17, 15 this year live in Queensland, Australia, on the Sunshine Coast. Lovely area of the, uh, planet near Australia Zoo, which is sort of crocodile hunter, uh, Steve Irwin kind of country. Yes. Uh, so at the moment my week, uh, or the last couple of years, uh, my week looks like working in aged care as a chaplain a couple days a week giving spiritual and pastoral care to the aged and, and dying.

[00:03:24] David Tensen: And, um, and then I also, uh, as you said, I took on some further study. Um, I did an honors degree a few years ago and then, um, got a scholarship for a PhD, invited onto a PhD program. So I've been, um, I'm nearly a couple years into that, that program, um, doing, you know, research on small business, social learning and education.

[00:03:51] David Tensen: Uh, I won't bore you with the details, but it's, that gives me three days on campus, both studying, researching, but also lecturing, teachering, volunteering on different parts and, uh, different areas. And so, yeah, I had this thing stirring in me, um, uh, over the last couple of years as my children have moved into young adulthood, you know, which for me is kind of 13 plus.

[00:04:18] David Tensen: Um, and, um, thinking about the next stage and season of life, uh, as well, having moved from a lot of volunteer work, a lot of ministry work, a lot of, you know, uh, leadership development training. I do. I ha I have a very diverse working background. Somebody's like such and such photo. Oh yeah. I used to be a wedding photographer.

[00:04:41] David Tensen: Like, uh, people just look at me like, what haven't you done? And there is a lot, but it seems more than most at my age. But that's just, just. The way it's been, so, yeah.

[00:04:54] Jonathan: I've, I've gone back to work myself in an office for the last six or eight months, and my boss, and I've had a, a new boss or both of them are saying this, like, Jonathan Puddle's lived a thousand lives. What, what is, what is this other skill that we've just discovered? And so once again, uh, we find similarities in our path.

[00:05:17] David Tensen: Yeah. You know, I've, I.

.

[00:05:19] David Tensen: What I mean, I, I teach on this now, but it's transferable skills from basically being a solopreneur or a small business owner. And if you're running a small ministry, your podcast whatever you're doing, you're having to be the tech guy, the marketing guy. You're having to look after the finance, you're having to solve problems.

[00:05:38] David Tensen: You don't have the money or time, particularly the money to be handing all, all those problems out to others. So you end up building this huge bank of skills that when you come into a workplace. Particularly after a few decades of doing it, people are like, what, what can't, or don't you do? And the reality is, I, I've had to do everything.

[00:05:58] David Tensen: So yeah, I can, I can fix your phone, I can preach the message, I can fix the PowerPoint. I can sit by someone who's dying. Uh, we had a, we had an open day at a university a couple weeks ago, and I was in one of these stands with all the academics and I was in the graduate research school, which means you're looking for people that might be interested in doing a master's or PhD.

[00:06:20] David Tensen: Um, and within, and in Australia, I dunno what it's like in, in, um, in your neck of the woods, but here you can do it for, for free. Like a lot of it's for free. Um, uh, well,

[00:06:30] Jonathan: It's not like that here,

[00:06:31] David Tensen: No. Okay. Yes,

[00:06:32] Jonathan: in my neck of the woods.

[00:06:33] David Tensen: It's, well, it's fee free, you know, it's, and you can even get paid for it if you get a scholarship. So, uh, we have this big open day, thousands of people there, and they're just standing at the stand and I'm like, I'm just gonna go and find people to bring 'em in and.

[00:06:45] David Tensen: You just do the sale. You do the pastor thing. Hey, how you going? You ask the young kid, what are you looking for? Studying? Oh, I'm thinking about doing computer. What about you, dad? Oh, no, I can't, can't afford it. I said, did you know it's free? What have you done before this? Oh, I just finished a master's an MBA.

[00:06:59] David Tensen: I'm like, you could do a PhD. Like, what? All right, come on over. I got 90% of the leads that day. They're looking at me like, what? Who the heck are you? I'm like, well, I haven't been here in this institution for three decades. Um, which is why I'm still

[00:07:14] Jonathan: Yeah,

[00:07:14] David Tensen: boot kicker at the bottom. But, uh, we have these other skills, you know,

[00:07:18] Jonathan: yeah,

[00:07:19] David Tensen: it's cool though.

[00:07:20] David Tensen: It's, it's nice to bring all that it and a shock to some people. I imagine that's what you're going through.

[00:07:27] Jonathan: yeah, yeah, that's, that's right. Um, This, this journey back into a corporate job, as I've mentioned before, a couple times on the show since then, has been this really surprising gift that I did not see coming and am just so thankful for. But we are in this season of life now that is so very different from any point where we've been recently.

[00:07:58] Jonathan: You know, we are not in any traditional ministry

[00:08:04] David Tensen: Hmm.

[00:08:05] Jonathan: We are attending a church when we attend it. When we are not there, we are walking to, uh, a little, um, local church right in our neighborhood that's a bunch of white-haired folks that are just very sweet and We're like fresh meat every time we walk in, and they're all so enthused and, uh, and it's like small and super low key and kind of wonderful. we're just like, been really dialed into our teenagers and I think we like didn't really realize how quickly they were growing up

[00:08:44] David Tensen: Mm.

[00:08:45] Jonathan: And, and I remember my father battling clinical depression for decades. This is before he come, he came outta the closet and there's, so much obviously tied up in his sexual, mental health, spiritual, emotional, human journey.

[00:09:05] David Tensen: Mm.

[00:09:06] Jonathan: But I remember being a teenager and feeling like I need more from my parents.

[00:09:13] David Tensen: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:15] Jonathan: I'm not gonna ask for that. That's weird, man. And I had, and I didn't even have, only now do I have the language to say I needed more from my parents. Right? Like, I just, I remember feeling overwhelmed and, um, confused and all this masculine pressure to be cool and stoic and all these things that we, that we know about, you know, the last few generations of, of masculinity. And I am finding myself wanting to give so much to my sons and my daughters.

[00:09:56] David Tensen: Hmm.

[00:09:58] Jonathan: and really also scared and confused and like not having a, a path, uh, or a roadmap. And, and I think one of the things I, I know I'm really casting a wide net topically right now, but. Thankfully I have a really good relationship with my parents and the relationship has only improved over time and has only deepened and gotten richer and more vulnerable.

[00:10:26] Jonathan: And, I'm recognizing how profoundly rare that is, and I am... part of what, so grabbed me in your book, Decenter Everything was this early topic that you lead in that so many of us have functionally lost elders in our lives, wise, grounded voices that would pour into us in some capacity. And, and I have felt that lack.

[00:11:02] Jonathan: I know I just said that my parents are wonderful and that's true, but my parents live far, far away and we've experienced that loss most acutely in church and uh, and in in local community

[00:11:14] David Tensen: Yeah.

[00:11:14] Jonathan: and, and, um, other family beyond my own parents. And so this sense of desperately trying to give my children more, trying to navigate my own midlife as I'm arriving in it. We have been to three funerals this summer

[00:11:32] David Tensen: Hmm,

[00:11:33] Jonathan: and realizing that's probably gonna become a more normal rhythm as more and more of our friends' parents fall ill. And part of me going, like, I really imagined I've, I really miss my grandparents

[00:11:52] David Tensen: Hmm.

[00:11:52] Jonathan: now. I really miss what it felt

[00:11:55] David Tensen: Hmm.

[00:11:56] Jonathan: To have an elder like that, that I trusted pretty much intrinsically, and that seemed to have such grounded wisdom. Again, I wanna honor my mom and dad. I can turn to them and I do, and, and we have this rapport, they are not physically present to me. And, um, and I wonder if you could just unpack a little bit for us, boil down the ocean, this, this age and stage that, that a lot of the listenership here are finding themselves in.

[00:12:30] David Tensen: Yeah.

[00:12:31] Jonathan: Ofering... kind of sandwiched... We've got children and, and teens, we've got aging parents and, and so many I think, um, will identify with this thing of like, what happened to our elders? What, where did they go?

[00:12:45] David Tensen: Hmm.

[00:12:50] David Tensen: Yeah. So, uh, I'll, we'll go backwards. Where did they go? In the book... i, the book the book's a provocation. It's, um. Uh, born out of a bit of frustration, uh, at this stack of research in there. I lean on some other writers and thinkers and frameworks in there, including the life model, Jim, Jim, Dr. Jim Wilder's stuff, um, Dr.

[00:13:13] David Tensen: Bill Plotkin, um, Stephen Jenkinson, people who, who write and work actively sort of in this space of, uh, psycho psychologic, developmental psychology, right? So the stages of life that you go through, but to do it from a psychological, spiritual, emotional and even ecological perspective of, and to think everything, not by way of chronology or age, but through maturity in, in those areas that aforementioned, uh, my academic language, I keep, keeps falling out.

[00:13:52] David Tensen: Uh, so I think one of the things is where did they go? I open the book painting a picture, which in, in a way is a get out of jail free card for the Boomers and the Boosters, the Boomers and the Builders who are sort of that 1964 to 46. And then, so anybody 1964 onwards really, or backwards, if we can say, um, they went through two world wars.

[00:14:26] David Tensen: Um, so we have this perfect storm. We have a strange system here. First of all, we live, live en masse we're living older and longer than we ever have before. I mean, I think, don't quote me on this, but I think penicillin alone increased life expectancy by 15 years. So

[00:14:46] Jonathan: Wow.

[00:14:46] David Tensen: are living some 25, 30 years longer en masse on average than anyone did before.

[00:14:54] David Tensen: 19 the year 1900. Uh.

[00:14:58] Jonathan: Wow.

[00:14:59] David Tensen: that's new. What's new is an a, a, a majority of people living well into, I mean, you mentioned somebody was 104, but living in average till 80, you know, the early eighties. Now lifespan and health spans different and people have different things, but just statistically in the west, it's just a given.

[00:15:22] David Tensen: So that's very new. We've never been here before. We've never had billions of people over the age of 50 like we do now. And in some countries there's, that's an issue, is that there's no younger generations being born, birth rates are going down. That has to be remembered. But we got partly here into this place of immaturity:

[00:15:44] David Tensen: We had two world wars. We had the PTSD, we had, uh, men and women on the front line, but a lot of women here at home. And you think about all the wisdom traditions. That, uh, and the presence of present people because when they came back, so many of these men had PTSD from the front line and women had it just living out every day trying to keep their countries going while the men were abroad.

[00:16:17] David Tensen: Then you had the industrial age come and instead of, you know, being more of a person, we could have more, you know, we've lost everything. Let's rebuild, and we just kept building like we just built on there. The house was fine. We needed a bigger house, we needed cars fine. We needed two cars. So consumerism came into part of that as well.

[00:16:39] David Tensen: Technology, of course, played a role in this and so did our institutionalization of our aging population, aged care ghettos, nursing homes. Um. Because we're too busy and we don't, it's not like we don't have the space. 'cause a lot of people do, but we moved from being multi intergenerational families in the west.

[00:17:01] David Tensen: Everything I'm saying here is largely a Western problem because 80% of the world's listeners are like, what the hell are you talking about? I live with my, my grandma live with us and I'll be living with my grandkids. But in the west, we've, we're here now. And that is for us now For you and I, I don't know how old you are, how have you ever

[00:17:21] Jonathan: 39.

[00:17:22] David Tensen: Yep. So you're heading to 40, but you have, you guys started early, you've got kids in their teens, right? Yep.

[00:17:30] Jonathan: Yeah.

[00:17:30] Jonathan: My oldest is 16.

[00:17:31] David Tensen: Yep. Uh, and so we're moving into this past parenthood, you know. Now what do I mean by that? I, in the book, I use the framework which I really like, which is the life model, which, which goes from infant to child, child to adult.

[00:17:50] David Tensen: Adult to parent and parent to elder. So after you've finished parenting, if you've done the maturity journey through life properly, at every stage, tick the boxes, got the healing, integrated what you need to, uh, you should be going from parenting to elder. And so the book asks, what would that look like? And, and I, I really pitch, I said, we kind of have to, there was this, we have to elder without elders.

[00:18:19] David Tensen: We have to learn today what it means en masse to be actively eldering in, in a way that, uh, brings life. In a way that is companioning. In a way that decenters our ideologies around God, our ideologies around having to be heard, our ideologies about having to know everything, our ideologies around death and the denial of death and our ideologies around consumption. The book has those sort of five decenter chapters and, uh, we find ourselves now at this point, and I suspect like you've just confessed, where are the elders? Where are these people who are ahead of me? Because I feel, and I felt probably around your age too, and part of this, I think you and I know is because we, you and I had, uh, in, in, in previous ministry lives and other things had been quite intent and intentional and in environments which focused on spiritual, relational, emotional maturity.

[00:19:27] David Tensen: Which is not everybody's environment, but while that's your environment, that's what you focus on. Like I've seen pictures of your eldest son on Facebook. You're an environment where you're working out all the time. I've got two boys too. The protein consumption is en masse. Um, they focus on that and that's what's growing in them.

[00:19:47] David Tensen: That's their environment. Friends, school, YouTube, everything else. Uh, our environment was healing. So here we are at our age and you look ahead and you're going, I know 60, 70 and 80 year olds that are, and this is talked about quite a bit in the book, but I'm echoing other people's voices that most adults today, older adults are still emotionally and maturely stuck in late adolescence or early adulthood.

[00:20:17] Jonathan: Right,

[00:20:18] David Tensen: And so we go past that and we're looking ahead and we're like, where the hell? Like I've got glimpses of some people and you've. Mentioned too, I, I've got some distance to some people and I don't want it to be hubris and pride, so I'm always watching, and I'm always being careful of this. But you know, I went to my university library online and I searched for the word parenting and I got quarter of a million results in the search from papers, articles, magazines, journals, parenting.

[00:20:49] David Tensen: I wrote in Eldering and I got a thousand.

[00:20:53] Jonathan: right.

[00:20:53] David Tensen: So there's a 250 to one ratio, and most of those were written by people whose last name was Eldering. Now I know that's, it's true. So I know that this is a new term, but why, like, because you and I have been intentional and are a part of this huge generation , and army,

[00:21:10] David Tensen: I've read the other day, that millennial parents have spent, would spend three times as much time with their children than their, than their parents did with them. Um.

[00:21:18] Jonathan: Wow.

[00:21:19] David Tensen: So we've been really intentional and I'm enjoying parenting. I love the reward of seeing my kids, um, you know, bloom and blossom and thrive and struggle and build resilience and all the, all the difficult things and everything its taken to be a sacrificial present parent.

[00:21:36] David Tensen: I have loved that and I'm like, what's next? Is it just a caravan? And everyone pisses off and I'm just think about getting a career and trying to bank as much as I can so that I can travel the world and consume, and it's all about me. It's been about them. Yeah. B, see how many pull-ups I can do, you know, that kind of, that stuff that is there on, en masse.

[00:22:04] David Tensen: I look ahead and I'm like that. I don't want to, that seems like a regression. It's retirement without ripening. Uh, and I don't want to go there.

[00:22:15] Jonathan: Ripening. Yeah. You talk. Okay. One of the things that struck me was this, you, I, okay, I'm gonna butcher it. So you use your language, obviously back to me. But it was like this, this embiggening or broadening or deepening of soul. That, and, and, and there you just use this language ripening. I remember when you, when I came across that line, I was just like, oh, that is what I, that is what it has felt

[00:22:49] David Tensen: Hmm.

[00:22:49] Jonathan: the last 16 years, sometimes kicking and screaming as my soul is stretched open, and I'm, and I'm also then realizing, okay, my wife's body has already endured this.

[00:23:01] Jonathan: This is just now that I, that I'm having to use this terminology and understanding myself, but I, really hope and want my soul to keep getting bigger.

[00:23:15] David Tensen: Yeah.

[00:23:17] Jonathan: You know, I want that so bad and I, and I, and you know it when you encounter it, right?

[00:23:26] David Tensen: a hundred percent. Yeah. The term I use in the book, the technical term I use, is a Fat Soul, which is Yeah. Which is, um, borrowed from, uh, Patricia Farmer. Um, but I, I talk about, um, Bernard Loomer. Dr. Bernard Loomer was a process and relational, uh, theologian and wrote this article on having a fat soul and, and talked about the capacity someone had.

[00:23:56] David Tensen: And that's actually quite a standout. A lot of people underline that and are like, that's, that's it. Uh, I can read a bit from you if you'd like. Yeah. Uh, consider. Uh, I've gotta, I'll throw with a couple examples.

[00:24:09] David Tensen: Consider the retired business owner. He struggles to relinquish control of the family business. He views his adult sons who are educated men in their forties as incompetent teens. He believes that his ways forged in the different economic era remain the only path forward.

[00:24:23] David Tensen: Or maybe the former school teacher who assists her grandchildren, who insists her grandchildren should learn, look and behave a certain way, transforming what could be centered and peaceful demonstrations of loving parental support into instrument of control every time she visits her daughter and grandchildren.

[00:24:42] David Tensen: These aren't personal foibles. They represent a profound constriction of what Dr. Bernard Loomer calls soul size, the capacity to hold complexity and difference without feeling threatened. I'll read that again. The capacity to hold complexity and difference without feeling threatened.

[00:25:02] David Tensen: He defines soul size as the volume of life you can take into your being and still maintain your integrity and individuality. The intense, the intensity and variety of outlook you can entertain in the unity of your being without feeling defensive or insecure .

[00:25:22] Jonathan: Ugh..

[00:25:22] David Tensen: By this measure, many of our substitutes for authentic elderhood actually represent a shrinking rather than an expansion of the soul.

[00:25:31] David Tensen: They maintain rigid boundaries, fixed viewpoints, rather than developing what Loomer calls the strength of your spirit to encourage others to become freer in the development of their diversity and uniqueness. Hmm.

[00:25:48] Jonathan: Yes,

[00:25:48] David Tensen: That's it.

[00:25:50] Jonathan: that would've been a moment that I put your book down and had a little cry.

[00:25:54] David Tensen: There is a grief, right? There is a, I think that's a, that's a great point. There is, there's a grief that part, writing it in part was a grief and working with people in the last season and days and weeks of their life. You know, in my job, you know, it's, it's now August, late August 25, I think we've had 33 deaths at work.

[00:26:20] David Tensen: Now that's the business we're in, you know, but that's, that's a quarter of the population in the Aged Care Village, in the aged Care Center, gone and replaced. And I spent time with those people. And you love on those people, and they're all in different ages and stages of cognition and everything else.

[00:26:40] David Tensen: But you would hear these stories and oh. I the lament, Jonathan was, I, I'm hearing the same rhetoric out of your mouth. I hear from the, under the, the 18 and 19-year-old undergrads that I teach on, I taught yesterday. You're talking about the same accolades. You're still the hero of the story, and that is profoundly sad.

[00:27:06] Jonathan: Hmm.

[00:27:07] David Tensen: Like, when did you stop growing? When did you regress? How? Why did you not expand? Why are you still in the center of this circle and the hero of this story? And why are you so desperately clinging onto even these last days, weeks, and years, instead of being able to be expansive? And it just became quite apparent, um, the contrast there that it can be grief.

[00:27:39] David Tensen: Yeah.

[00:27:40] Jonathan: Yeah. but I think grief is absolutely a part of it. I think there's also this a longing, right? Like, uh, when I read that it was, it was like a goalpost. It was like, ah, there's a blurry Polaroid of where I want to target this ship.

[00:27:58] David Tensen: Hmm.

[00:27:59] Jonathan: I want, what we're asking now is, okay, what do we need to invest now with our children

[00:28:06] David Tensen: Hmm,

[00:28:06] Jonathan: to, to get ahead of the likely situation that our children and or our children or grandchildren will be living with us, if not permanently again, later. Certainly simply even just based on the, the

[00:28:23] David Tensen: a hundred percent.

[00:28:24] Jonathan: of housing crisis that Ontario and Canada and

[00:28:26] David Tensen: Yeah, we are.

[00:28:28] Jonathan: are

[00:28:28] David Tensen: are with you almost. You know, curve for curve on the chart in Australia.

[00:28:34] Jonathan: Yeah. It's, it's completely untenable. So we're saying, okay, what, what does it look like to become those kinds of people

[00:28:40] David Tensen: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:42] Jonathan: and what investments need to be made relationally? And, and I guess what, again, what we keep bumping into is what are we gonna have to lay down?

[00:28:49] David Tensen: Yes.

[00:28:49] Jonathan: What, what do we have to just keep sacrificing? Um.

[00:28:56] David Tensen: Yep.

[00:28:57] Jonathan: Okay. You, you used the word, um, companioning, and maybe this is a bit of a pivot, but I think it's gonna flow. in the, the present season again that we're in, we've got a lot of pain around us. We, uh, are are pretty whole as a family, but two of our best friend couples

[00:29:14] David Tensen: Hmm

[00:29:15] Jonathan: like ride or Die, very close couples are navigating divorces that are both very painful

[00:29:23] David Tensen: hmm.

[00:29:24] Jonathan: And that's, we've been walking with those couples in varying degrees, but that has been a, a, a significant, um, close proximity pain and, and one that we can do very little practically for. Then, you know, Tryphena who's not here on the show, I'm not gonna share her what is her story to share, but, um, they're some of our closest friends, they're navigating some things that we can't help with. We can pray for and, and be here and. And then there's these funerals. We, we've, we've had a friend, um, my wife's age, our age who died, um, of mesothelioma, rare and aggressive form of cancer, um, at 44 years old.

[00:30:11] David Tensen: Mm.

[00:30:13] Jonathan: We went to a funeral, yesterday

[00:30:14] David Tensen: Wow.

[00:30:15] Jonathan: for our friend's father in his, in his mid to late seventies.

[00:30:19] Jonathan: And then Maija's last remaining grandparent died at 104. So we've had three generations, three funerals

[00:30:27] David Tensen: Mm.

[00:30:30] Jonathan: And again, it's been provocative for Maija and I, how little we can do to help, uh, in, at least in the very practical, sacrificial, giving ways that the last decade of our lives has been typified by. We knew what it meant to love, and it was often to do with our, our availability and our logistical offerings. And now we're, it feels really different. And, and, and, and you use that word companioning

[00:31:09] David Tensen: Mm.

[00:31:10] Jonathan: and, and you've used this term eldering, and I'm curious where, where your experience also, yeah. Just, just being in aged care. What, what's it, how does it work to not be able to heal, um, the fact that we die?

[00:31:25] David Tensen: Yeah.

[00:31:29] David Tensen: I think, um, first of all, three, three funerals like that is, is can feel like a lot. Yeah. And, and it's just gonna keep going. Right. And one day people will stand at, at yours and mine.

[00:31:47] Jonathan: Yeah.

[00:31:47] Jonathan: I had not thought about that much until this summer.

[00:31:49] David Tensen: Yeah. Yeah. Because it is absolutely 100% inevitable. But, uh, I, there's the chapter on Decentering Death. I, it's a play of words, but we, we have decentered death, as in we have, we, we've denied it, you know.

[00:32:07] David Tensen: So, um, I, I borrow a little bit from, um, uh, Ernest Becker, who wrote the book, book, the Denial of Death back in the late seventies. Um. He points out, yes, in the west we have just, we've removed any sort of form of death or dead bodies or, you know, uh, the animals you eat. I don't wanna see any of it, just have it nicely packaged, blood free in, in my supermarket shelf.

[00:32:39] David Tensen: I, I don't want to be around dead body. We just, for some reason we're obsessed with it on TV and in media and in gaming, but in real life, uh, it is confronting. Now, again, strange in the West and we, it's just only a phenomenon in the last few decades is that we've been this removed. So people don't have to think about it, because unless you're being invited to a funeral, why would you, you know, why would you?

[00:33:11] David Tensen: Um, so I think what has happened is that, um, we have pathologized grieving.

[00:33:24] David Tensen: We have lived with a huge denial of death. But it is the most natural thing in life itself. It life, death, and resurrection. Is it? It has, it's, it is a core component of life is death. Um, yeah. Even mentioned this small line in the book comes to mind. You just put so much in there and you know what it's like, it's months ago when you wrote this, but I talk about Jesus going to Golgotha, which is the skull, and this whole idea of we, he's like, I'm, I'm... The skull... you have to think about death. Death, death is something we must, I think at least consider.

[00:34:08] Jonathan: And they're scary looking, skulls.,

[00:34:08] David Tensen: They are, but you know, the great philosophers used to be there. And I talked to, I have some beautiful colleagues in aged care, um, and at university, but particularly in aged care who are Nepalese or Indian. And, um, you know, by the time they've come over here and they're starting to work, quite a number of, have seen their fair share of dead bodies, grandma and granddad and uncle this, because a lot of them die in their home.

[00:34:32] David Tensen: So today, 80% of people die outside the home. They pass away in a hospital or an aged care center. In the year, 1900, 80% would die at home. And if you're in a multi-generational home, you just wake up one morning and grandma's dead, or mom is dead, or your brother's dead. You know, even the amount of people that died before they were five is like, so we just live in this place. And it's a long way around this, but it's important for us to recognize that we're here for a reason.

[00:34:58] Jonathan: Yeah.

[00:34:59] David Tensen: it, it is easy to stay away from it, but I found working in aged care and actually, embracing even doing some study around thanatology, which is the term, it's where the word Thanos comes from. He is the god of death. And so thanatology is the study of death and dying, has kind of normalized it. 'cause it should be normal.

[00:35:22] David Tensen: At the university I work at, we're gonna be starting a death cafe where you drink tea, eat cake, and talk about death. Your own, others

[00:35:29] Jonathan: Wow.

[00:35:29] David Tensen: to normalize it.

[00:35:31] Jonathan: Hmm.

[00:35:32] David Tensen: To be prepared for it. Um, and it is confronting. And for goodness sake, it's supposed to be. You know, some would say until you really are prepared to die, you can't really live, you don't have a value, not just a value for life.

[00:35:51] David Tensen: And it's interesting in aged care too, our job is really to give people a good death. You know? Which sounds morbid, but it is. I mean, it's, it is it, it is. It's what it's about. Not, not a bad, ugly, lonely death, but a good, kind, pain-free death.

[00:36:10] Jonathan: Yes.

[00:36:10] David Tensen: Would you not want that? Or do you wanna die alone and in pain?

[00:36:15] David Tensen: You know, there, there are some of the harder things. So then we then, of course, comes grief. Yeah. The grief from death, from loss, or anticipated loss. And so in the book I present a, uh, framework called Companioning, which is also in some countries become, uh, a, an alternate word for spiritual direction. That people become companions or they're, they're trained in companioning.

[00:36:41] David Tensen: And the, the book, the, um, framework of Companioning was created by, um, Alan Wolfelt uh, who's the director for Center of Loss and Life transition. And he has 11 tenets of, of grief, uh, of, of, of, um, companioning. And he suggests that when you are with people who are dying or with people you can't do much for, uh, or, or then you move away from a therapeutic fix it kind of thing to just being a companion.

[00:37:20] David Tensen: I can read a few if you want some of the tenets.

[00:37:23] Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:37:24] David Tensen: Companioning is about being present to another, another person's pain. It is not about taking the pain away. Companioning is about going to the wilderness. Sorry.

[00:37:39] Jonathan: Don't like that

[00:37:40] David Tensen: No, don't like that. No. And neither do I. Codependency dies hard on those. The first tenet. Companioning is about going to the wilderness of the soul with another human being. It's not about thinking you're responsible for finding the way out. Companioning is about honoring the spirit. It's not about focusing on the intellect. Companioning is about listening with the heart. It's not about analyzing with the head. Companioning is about bearing witness to the struggle of others. It is not about judging or directing those struggles. Do you want me to keep going? Okay.

[00:38:25] Jonathan: Yeah. Let's

[00:38:26] David Tensen: Alright. Companioning?

[00:38:28] Jonathan: But I, but I feel like this is the, this is in some ways, this is one of the answers to the earlier, like the, the, the embiggening of soul, right? Like this is,

[00:38:37] David Tensen: Yes,

[00:38:38] Jonathan: these are, these are useful targets for us to meditate on.

[00:38:40] David Tensen: A hundred percent. Yep.

[00:38:42] Jonathan: Yeah.

[00:38:43] David Tensen: And we have these on the wall in our chaplaincy office because I, this is, what can I do? You have lived 80, 90 years. You have a terminal illness. Your body is decaying and breaking down. You don't even remember your name. Those living with cognitive decline in the 150 types of dementia, you don't.

[00:39:02] David Tensen: There's nothing I can do, and I would be a fool and a short, short lived in my vocation, in my place as a chaplain if I think there's anything I can do except walking alongside you, not about leading you, discovering the gifts of sacred silence, not filling them up with words. Companioning is about being still, it's not about frantic movement forward.

[00:39:31] David Tensen: It's about respecting disorder and confusion. It's not about imposing order and logic. Last two: companioning is about learning from others. It's not about teaching them. Companioning is about compassionate curiosity, and it's not about expertise. So I say that this model offers an insight of how elders could reimagine their role, rather than seeing themselves as center stage knowledge dispensers we become wisdom holders who create space for others and their understanding to emerge.

[00:40:09] David Tensen: And, um, Cole Imperi, who's a thanatologist, um, talks about treating everybody, actually approaching everybody relationally as if they're grieving and loss. We may be with these tenants or other things because in some way everybody is,

[00:40:37] Jonathan: haha, Ugh, there it is, right.

[00:40:38] David Tensen: Yeah.

[00:40:40] Jonathan: Wow.

[00:40:41] David Tensen: And I think we could probably convert those two ways of guiding teens into this next life. Like, I can't be rescuing my sons and daughters from all that, but I can be a companion for you in these times and listen and bear witness and hold space and allow you to realize that you'll need help. And then ask all these things.

[00:41:04] David Tensen: Um, everybody's encountering some kind of loss, real loss, shadow loss, ambiguous loss, anticipatory loss. Uh, yeah. Again, something to consider, uh, in eldering. Mm.

[00:41:22] Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah. that's rich. That, that, I mean, that, that implication too, like if, like, actually we should be treating everybody this way, is profound. I mean obviously there's, there's this simple element of, you know, if you knew what someone was carrying, um, you treat them differently. But I'm thinking, I have a, a, a friend, she's a gifted theologian.

[00:41:49] Jonathan: You'll need to keep an eye on her work. Um, Heather Morgan, she is doing her PhD right now. She is a queer, disabled woman. Uh, and her, um. I, I hope I'm not giving anything away, but essentially she is looking at our very fundamental ideas of sanctification through a similar lens and saying a lot of the heart of Christian theology is cure, not care.

[00:42:16] David Tensen: Hmm.

[00:42:17] Jonathan: And, um, Christian modern evangelical theology, let's

[00:42:21] David Tensen: Yeah.

[00:42:22] David Tensen: define

[00:42:22] Jonathan: that a little bit more. And, God is actually not looking to fix us in the ways we have often been told God is.

[00:42:36] David Tensen: Yeah.

[00:42:37] Jonathan: That God would come alongside also.

[00:42:41] David Tensen: Yeah, a hundred percent. I think we could go through the 11 tenets and look at the role of Holy Spirit and see her role as a companion in our life. For Jesus to say, I'll never leave you forsake you, is not a threat. It's a wonderful promise of, of presence. Uh, in, in these, and you, and I know you've done plenty of work around trauma, that it's not actually necessarily what happens that determines whether something becomes a traumatic event and sticks with you.

[00:43:11] David Tensen: It's who is with you during, before, during, and after the event that,

[00:43:17] Jonathan: Yeah.

[00:43:18] David Tensen: yeah.

[00:43:18] Jonathan: The resources you have.

[00:43:18] David Tensen: Yeah. So. And you, you and I have both experienced those moments that I could have been stuck in, but I, I had the presence, I acknowledged and felt, and God came, God came, God displayed God's self. And I went looking and acknowledged God's presence in that moment.

[00:43:40] David Tensen: And then can we be that for somebody, including talking about friends that you feel helpless around, I'm here if you need, and you know, that we've just let us know, but not try and fix or rescue, but be a companion and a witness in some hard times. Yeah, and I think those kind of elders, they're out there. There are definitely people like that. You know, they're not writing books and they're not doing a hundred pushups on Instagram and they're not, you know, they're just.... there. You know,

[00:44:23] Jonathan: Yeah. Quietly

[00:44:24] David Tensen: quietly companioning Yeah. Doing the work. Absolutely. And, and I think too, the journey to Companioning is, um, more common for women. The journey towards Eldering in this de decentric way that I speak of in the book, uh, for a myriad of reasons moving into the next stage of life, including menopause, perimenopause, uh, this is a. A calling, an embodied reality that more women than men live in.

[00:45:03] David Tensen: Yeah. I think there's more women

[00:45:05] Jonathan: Hmm.

[00:45:05] David Tensen: elders, true authentic elders. People that are practicing eldering than, than men. Yeah. In the west. Anyway, I could say that much.

[00:45:18] Jonathan: That makes sense. I don't even know how I got into this conversation, but, but I was, um, talking with my son, one of my sons, and we were reminiscing on my grandparents, I think 'cause we were reflecting on, on his great-grandmother passing. And my, my two most impactful memories of my mom's parents are them holding me,

[00:45:42] David Tensen: Hmm.

[00:45:43] Jonathan: in times of loss and despair.

[00:45:46] David Tensen: Really?

[00:45:47] Jonathan: You know, my, my, when we were 13. Uh, family moved to Toronto from New Zealand, and, we had this farewell party and, and I remember standing there with, in line with my parents and my, my siblings facing the crowd and my dad's kind of giving this speech about why we're moving and our values and blah, blah, blah. I'm looking across the room at all my dearest friends and my first serious crush and all these, and all my family and cousins. And I break down and start crying.

[00:46:18] David Tensen: Hmm.

[00:46:19] Jonathan: and, and I am so ashamed.

[00:46:21] David Tensen: Hmm.

[00:46:23] Jonathan: and, I'm looking at a couple of my buddies, my friends, my mates, the look on their face is confirming that shame is the right thing to feel. Like you are doing the thing publicly that we don't do as young stoic boys in New Zealand in the nineties, which of course only reinforces the shame further, I'm like looking to them for some kind of solidarity and they're like, and. And I'm, and I'm, I just like, I'm like waiting for lightning to take me out to, so to

[00:46:59] David Tensen: Mm

[00:46:59] Jonathan: this, this moment. And instead my grandfather comes up and just wraps his arms around me.

[00:47:06] David Tensen: Hmm.

[00:47:07] Jonathan: He's got his back to the room and he just holds

[00:47:12] David Tensen: Hmm.

[00:47:12] Jonathan: for, I don't even know

[00:47:13] David Tensen: Oh.

[00:47:14] Jonathan: like minutes. And I just sob.. And he, and he covers my shame and provides resources, you know, like it's all, it's all part of it. And um, and then my, my grandmother is so similar, we'd moved to Canada, it's a few years later and I'm back in New Zealand for a visit and they're selling the family beach house. And it's, to my knowledge, it's gonna be my last time seeing it.

[00:47:45] David Tensen: Hmm

[00:47:45] Jonathan: And. And I'm, and I'm really churned up and I, I haven't really grown much further in my acceptance of my emotions. And again, I've got two good friends now from Canada who've come back on this New Zealand odyssee with me

[00:47:58] David Tensen: Wow.

[00:47:58] Jonathan: and they're in the room too. And I'm kind of standing there in the, in the kitchen sort of, we're literally about to leave I'm having this moment and I've not said anything to anybody in my, and my Nana sees it and just comes over and wraps her arms around me.

[00:48:17] Jonathan: And it just floodgates open

[00:48:19] David Tensen: Hmm.

[00:48:23] Jonathan: like I said earlier, you, you know it when you encounter it.

[00:48:28] David Tensen: You do, you know, a fat soul when you, when you meet one.,

[00:48:33] Jonathan: Exactly. And I, and I so want to be that kind of safety

[00:48:38] David Tensen: yeah. Yeah.

[00:48:40] Jonathan: for my children, my grandchildren, my hopefully great-grandchildren, uh, along with whoever else that. We

[00:48:47] David Tensen: Yeah,

[00:48:48] Jonathan: come across on the

[00:48:49] David Tensen: yeah,

[00:48:52] Jonathan: Um, am scared that a day will come when I'm like, Nope. Time out on the sacrifice.

[00:49:01] David Tensen: Yeah.

[00:49:02] Jonathan: I,

[00:49:02] David Tensen: is Jonathan Time.

[00:49:04] Jonathan: was, yeah, seriously.

[00:49:06] Jonathan: Like I, I'm ready for

[00:49:09] David Tensen: Yeah. Can I borrow the, nah.

[00:49:11] Jonathan: I,

[00:49:12] David Tensen: Can I have? Nah.

[00:49:16] Jonathan: I feel a measure of fear

[00:49:18] David Tensen: Hmm.

[00:49:20] Jonathan: about that

[00:49:21] David Tensen: Why?

[00:49:21] Jonathan: that one day I will buy a motorcycle and say it's my turn

[00:49:25] David Tensen: Hmm.

[00:49:26] Jonathan: To live the good life. 'cause right now, that's mostly what I'm being modeled. Again, not by my actual Mum & Dad

[00:49:32] David Tensen: Yeah.

[00:49:33] Jonathan: but by the culture. The

[00:49:36] David Tensen: Yeah.

[00:49:36] Jonathan: The neighbors, the folks on my street. It's like, yep. Well I worked good and hard for this so that I could

[00:49:42] David Tensen: Yeah.

[00:49:44] Jonathan: Go and party.

[00:49:46] David Tensen: is that done at someone else's expense, do you think? Like what's the, why would you not want to do that? And how do you draw the line between what might be fair? Just good and self-care and reasonable. And what's excessive? Consumptive, childish.

[00:50:06] Jonathan: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I have no idea.

[00:50:08] David Tensen: Nah, same.

[00:50:09] Jonathan: I'm not in that boat today. And I'm literally talking to chat GPT and half an hour before this call, planning out how much I need to have saved for, I'm like, what kind of lifestyle am I gonna want to have? And it's asking me like, and how much do you intend to give to your children?

[00:50:26] David Tensen: Hmm.

[00:50:28] Jonathan: And how generous do you intend to be in the later years of your life? And I'm like, AI, leave me alone.

[00:50:36] David Tensen: Oh, that's interesting. That is, that's, um, again, is that there's a cultural nuance with that in some cultures, uh, I think some of the research I did in some Nordic cultures, the government rewards you as you move on and you give it away to the next generation while you live. So if you give X away,

[00:51:00] Jonathan: Yeah. 'cause there's a death tax if you live in Finland

[00:51:02] David Tensen: right?

[00:51:02] Jonathan: and if you don't give your money away before you die, it will be hosed in taxes.

[00:51:07] David Tensen: Yeah. But if you do it, there's still care around. Now in Australia, we have a really good aged care, you know, system Here, it's exceptionally good for on world standards, there's holes, but my gosh, it's profoundly good. I have some American colleagues who, you know, uh, one of them just returned home to bury a mother at the start of the year, and we're just going through, you know, the money run out and she wasn't insured. All just traumatic, just terrible stuff that just doesn't happen here in a Australia because of just things they set up many years ago.

[00:51:43] David Tensen: But it is a concern that, you know, that question of what I have, what will I have left, is a question we tend to ask because we have to be self-sufficient all the way to the end. God forbid we ask help or live in an intergenerational home. But as you open up with, you know, I finished some of the book, the last chapter in it is Decentering Consumption, which was hard for me to write, which to open up with just because of the way life has been. In fact, I've, I I, I go to a part of my sort of spiritual care is going to a men's circle. I go to a men's circle here. I've been part of the Center for Men and Families, uh, which is kind of an offshoot of Richard Rohr's stuff here.

[00:52:29] David Tensen: So I sit in a circle of, of men, and at 47, I'm the youngest there. And many of these beautiful men, elders, true elders are, and people at different maturity stages of life. But I'm the youngest there chronologically. And the other day I just lost it in the circle. I'm like, you know. I get angry? I get angry at the fact that I'm this age, uh, and then. I have, it's all about me. It's all self-centered and bitterness, but I, I, I own it in the circle. You know that here I am at a place where I don't think I'm gonna get into the the housing market, because I only have on book, on the books, you know, 20 years of work at the most left.

[00:53:13] David Tensen: Unless parents leave something to us. If it hasn't been gobbled up in, in aged care and other fees and taxes, I don't think I'll get in the housing market. And then I dunno if my kids will get in the housing market. And I know I'm not alone because a house here is doubled in price. A house that should be 500,000 is like 950 now and it's fricking, and it's older and shitter than it was five years ago when it was half the price.

[00:53:40] David Tensen: You know, same as you guys. It's like, what the heck? And can my kids afford to move out? I don't know if they can, I don't, I just dunno how we're gonna do it, to be honest. Just this is just pure, I mean, I'm doing a business degree. I, I know where the numbers go, just economically. This is the lament of a lot of, of, a lot of people.

[00:54:00] David Tensen: The old, yeah. So I'm gonna have to live with, you know, we're gonna have to live together and I'm asking myself, am I the kind of person that my kids could look, could live with? Am I willing to give up, having to be the, a successful provider? And I know I will be su surrounded with by family and friends who are not in my boat and managed to get into the housing market, managed to put things away.

[00:54:33] David Tensen: Maybe they didn't go into ministry. Uh, and

[00:54:38] Jonathan: but

[00:54:38] David Tensen: there's a lament there. There's a lament and an anger that wow. Uh, you live for others. You give yourself to others. You, you help others out. So then where do I find my reward?

[00:54:53] Jonathan: Well, and, and I think David, like we were promised a certain bill of goods and we were raised in a theology that we might now call faulty,

[00:55:03] David Tensen: Absolutely.

[00:55:04] Jonathan: but we went into it with a certain carrot before us

[00:55:07] David Tensen: Yep.

[00:55:08] Jonathan: and it was a mixture of, uh, treasures in

[00:55:12] David Tensen: in heaven. Yep.

[00:55:14] Jonathan: but but also,

[00:55:15] David Tensen: Yeah.

[00:55:15] Jonathan: but

[00:55:16] David Tensen: Many houses. Many houses. Yep.

[00:55:18] Jonathan: Yeah, yeah, But also MacBook Pros and Teslas and nice things here too.

[00:55:25] David Tensen: And it that's not God's economy. God's economy is, yeah. Isn't it, isn't it ironic that that same, uh, theology or eschatology is built around, we gotta have these big, beautiful buildings and all this wealth to win souls and then people live with this poverty of soul growth, just poverty, you know? Uh, and they're playing catch up like when they've got only a few years to live. That's the part that made me upset in this group of men. And they held space and they were like, yep, I hear you. But a lot of 'em are retired. Um, watched the video of a guy starting to write poetry at 75.

[00:56:06] David Tensen: I'm like, that's right. But that's fricking late dude. Like, you could have been doing this, you could have been writing all this stuff years ago, but, and he admitted I was stuck in myself. Just a product of that whole the thing I opened up with, just so I don't look at boomers and blame them. There's just a sense of a grief.

[00:56:24] Jonathan: and, and also like we've been, there's this mat, like we've been trading our la our body's labor for our food, um, economically, you know, You know, the, the, the objectification of men is very, very different than the objectification of women, but there's objectification nonetheless

[00:56:44] David Tensen: Yeah.

[00:56:46] Jonathan: Yeah.

[00:56:47] David Tensen: Tell me about that.

[00:56:49] Jonathan: Well, I, I, I've, I, I'm feeling like this may be part of what I see in my, in my neighbors and in other folks, you know, and where it's sort of like I, you know, I put my body as a cog in the machine.

[00:57:08] David Tensen: Hmm

[00:57:09] Jonathan: literally in a factory perhaps.

[00:57:10] David Tensen: Hmm.

[00:57:12] Jonathan: for, for 40 years.

[00:57:13] David Tensen: Yeah.

[00:57:14] Jonathan: And so now it's my turn to drive the Corvette, to pay for the cosmetic surgery for my new young wife, to essentially have all the fun that I haven't been having all this time. And there's again, a big part of me that I'm like, I, I would not begrudge a person their fun.

[00:57:37] David Tensen: No,

[00:57:38] Jonathan: or their pleasure.

[00:57:38] David Tensen: No. Have fun. Go for it.

[00:57:42] Jonathan: but, but what seems, what I, what often, not always, but what often accompanies that is a pulling back from the pain of others around them.

[00:57:55] David Tensen: Hmm

[00:57:56] Jonathan: And, and an a, a reducing availability to say their children or their grandchildren in, in presence and in, in ability to, to help out. Like I couldn't tell you the number of our friends who cannot count their parents to look after their children.

[00:58:19] David Tensen: Because their parents are working or?

[00:58:22] Jonathan: ' Cause their parents are useless at looking after children or their parents their parents would feel a bit anxious and happy hour is coming.

[00:58:30] David Tensen: Yeah. Right.

[00:58:31] Jonathan: And it would kind of crimp their daily schedule.

[00:58:34] David Tensen: It's an inconvenience.

[00:58:35] Jonathan: Or It's inconvenient. It's inconvenient. My, my, I tell dad when it's his turn, and he books a flight and comes here.

[00:58:45] David Tensen: Wow.

[00:58:47] Jonathan: and we make that work 'cause he lives far away.

[00:58:49] David Tensen: Yeah.

[00:58:51] Jonathan: But my, I've got friends telling me you have no idea what a gift it is that your parents are actually even capable or willing to look after your children.,

[00:58:57] David Tensen: Yep. Yeah, yeah. I, that, that's here. I could witness to that in my family and extended family. Yeah.

[00:59:08] Jonathan: And I'm sure this sounds to some like we're ragging on people, but again, it's more

[00:59:11] David Tensen: no. This is the, this is the reality. This is, this is fact. You know, they didn't have parents around because they, some of them didn't have grandparents around 'cause they died in the war. So here we go. Like,

[00:59:24] Jonathan: Yeah.

[00:59:25] David Tensen: but that is interesting, the objectification of men and men's body. Uh, yeah. I, I, I do not blame men for thinking and feeling that way because some of the narrative is you will, you will earn millions of dollars across your lifetime. An incredibly small portion will go to you, you will probably have, you'll probably die before your wife. If your wife dies before you, a stat I heard the other day was that, uh, and I see this in aged care, if the man dies, if they're a couple, she usually lives for, she can live for a while without him.

[01:00:09] Jonathan: Yeah.

[01:00:10] David Tensen: widows, widows, are, um, live for longer and are usually happily because they've actually got a relational network they've built outside their husband as their quote unquote best friend. But most men, their wife is their best friend, and all the eggs are in that basket and they will die. And so sad, Jonathan, they'll die of a broken heart just a couple months later.

[01:00:31] Jonathan: sure.

[01:00:32] David Tensen: Yeah.

[01:00:33] Jonathan: Yeah, that

[01:00:34] David Tensen: Because what else have they done? Because they, their men were, their friends were at work. So unless they got integrated into a men's circle or a men's shared, or part of a fellowship in church, which is one of the greatest gifts in those areas, or in sporting clubs and intentionally go out and build friendships, sacrificially, like freaking get on a plane and go visit your friend.

[01:00:58] David Tensen: You know, unless they do that. But you're witness to this. You've four children, was it? Yeah. You just, just takes a lot of time and energy and effort. Uh, yeah. Can feel like that. And, and a lot of jobs. A lot of jobs, a lot of really difficult, dangerous jobs are done by men too. Their last in the lifeboats, first to war.

[01:01:25] David Tensen: It's part of the, part of the narrative, the warrior narrative too.

[01:01:30] Jonathan: True. True.

[01:01:31] David Tensen: Yeah.

[01:01:32] Jonathan: Even, even that's been interesting to come back into the workforce and to say, in my job interview, you know, when they look at my, my resume or my career history and they've like, you know, you've been a director of multiple departments before. Now you're a, you're, you're an IT, you're going down to an IT manager. Doesn't that feel like a step backwards for you? And I was like, I remember being younger and desperately needing to climb a ladder and prove myself.

[01:01:55] David Tensen: Yeah.

[01:01:56] Jonathan: sir. I don't have anyone anything to prove to anybody. He's like, what are you looking for in, in, in your working life, Jonathan? I'm like. I wanna be treated with dignity and I want to contribute solutions to interesting problems.

[01:02:08] David Tensen: Hmm.

[01:02:10] Jonathan: And, and, you know, and, and my, our CEO's kind of looking at the other team. He's like, this guy interviews Well, I, yeah, let's give him the job.

[01:02:15] David Tensen: That's awesome. Well, I think you've own, you're owning the season that you're entering,

[01:02:22] Jonathan: Hmm,

[01:02:23] David Tensen: Which is your autumn season, right? You've had, you've had your summer.

[01:02:28] Jonathan: terrified.

[01:02:28] David Tensen: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:02:30] Jonathan: I actually love autumn..

[01:02:31] David Tensen: So do I, I love this. I love going somewhere. And they're like, what? You can sing? Oh yeah, I used to sing. You know, how can you fix that? I used to do that, but, but why aren't you running this department?

[01:02:42] David Tensen: I'm like, I don't want to. I'm done. I need to make room for you. People in their spring and summer need these positions more than me. I need to shed my leaves. I need to become bigger. I need to decenter myself. I need to . I can't be consuming. I need to be dispensing and making room and giving space and encouraging and honoring diversity.

[01:03:08] David Tensen: People ask me, when you finish your PhD, will you get a job at the uni? I'm like, well, I, I kind of in my, my bank account says, I hope I do. But gee, there are some like really amazing young men and women in their early to mid thirties who could do these jobs amazingly well with more vigor and strength and passion than than I actually have right now.

[01:03:34] David Tensen: I have wisdom to offer. So if you want me to stand in front of a group of kids and tell them that workplace and tell 'em about these things, then yeah. But I'm, I'm, I say to my kids too, and I encourage your listeners, you, you have teen kids to have that discussion. My son will ask something and I'll say, well, I'm, dude, I, this isn't about me now.

[01:03:55] David Tensen: Life's been about me in my summer season and making and reproducing and sowing and reaping. Um, I'm here to divest. Uh, I'm here to invest in you. I'm here to make space. I'm here to, I'm, I'm not the center of the circle. I'm, I'm no longer the hero of this journey. I'm Gandalf, I'm Galadriel I'm, I'm the, I'm your wing man.

[01:04:18] David Tensen: That's, that's me right now. That's what I want to inhabit and that's how I wanna be remembered, not...

[01:04:25] Jonathan: hmm.

[01:04:26] David Tensen: Not in somebody who desperately tried to hang on to their summer years, uh, and any spiritual, uh, framework you see put together. Most of them, I should say, this is what it looks, this is supposed to look like.

[01:04:43] David Tensen: This is the divestment. It's a decline and a descent into this next season and stage of life. And inhabit, inhabit the age that you are and inhabit the season and stage that you're in and don't wish for or go back to anything else. I think we need to, my hope and longing is to move into the next few decades inhabiting that age and stage of life that I'm at, and not lamenting, and not hoping different, and not competing with anybody younger than me, but making space and room.

[01:05:23] David Tensen: Supporting them into through their summer seasons, you know, through their spring seasons. Hmm.

[01:05:32] Jonathan: Beautiful. David, where can people, um, find your work, grab your book and

[01:05:37] David Tensen: They can get, uh, this book Decenter Everything on Amazon. If they're in Australia, they can go to my website. They can also get at Barnes and Nobles. All, all the bookshops probably like yours, all the bookshops. Um, and my other poetry work too. All, all the same places. Uh, I'm on all the socials, but davidtensen.com's probably where you can find my work, including some of my on the side research work as well.

[01:06:05] David Tensen: Yeah.

[01:06:06] Jonathan: It's good work. I recommend it. If that wasn't obvious.

[01:06:09] David Tensen: Thanks so much.

[01:06:10] Jonathan: David, would you, uh, would you pray for us?

[01:06:12] David Tensen: Yeah, yeah.

[01:06:17] David Tensen: Lord, for those listening who are in our stage in this autumn stage and are struggling, are grieving the loss of their summer. We ask that you would be a very true and present companion to them. Would you help us decenter ourselves to know that we are part of the Trinity and not the middle of it. To know that you've called us to be self emptying, self forgetting people who know the source of our supply, who make our needs known, but don't make them demands.

[01:07:02] David Tensen: Would you bless every family, every heart, every home, listening to this podcast and their neighbors in your name. Amen.

[01:07:16] Jonathan: Amen.